Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
Haha, I lost? If you think one person was hired to do Corsi work, you're nuts (which is what I was referring to...the "average fan's" use of Corsi and other things...people that use the term "possession player" every third sentence). These measures - when further developed - are a tool...like anything else...it's not like the teams that made these hires fired all our their scouts, as if underlying metrics won the NHL contract or something...
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
I don't know what half of what you just wrote means.mikey287 wrote:Haha, I lost? If you think one person was hired to do Corsi work, you're nuts (which is what I was referring to...the "average fan's" use of Corsi and other things...people that use the term "possession player" every third sentence). These measures - when further developed - are a tool...like anything else...it's not like the teams that made these hires fired all our their scouts, as if underlying metrics won the NHL contract or something...
The point is you constantly disparage their use, and the real reason is because it democratizes player analysis which annoys someone like you that has experience coaching ice hockey. I don't post about the "scouting craze." All of these tools -- scouting, analytics, background checks, whatever -- are part of a complete picture of player analysis.
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
Corsi is NOT a complete picture. It is quite biased towards specific aspects of the game.
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
Nope, and I'm not saying that. We're using it as shorthand for the use of analytics in general.
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
"advanced stats" are incomplete. hockey nerds tend to have too many personal biases. mush them together and things are ok.
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
Imagine what personal biases scouts must have.shmenguin wrote:"advanced stats" are incomplete. hockey nerds tend to have too many personal biases. mush them together and things are ok.
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
slappybrown wrote:I don't know what half of what you just wrote means.mikey287 wrote:Haha, I lost? If you think one person was hired to do Corsi work, you're nuts (which is what I was referring to...the "average fan's" use of Corsi and other things...people that use the term "possession player" every third sentence). These measures - when further developed - are a tool...like anything else...it's not like the teams that made these hires fired all our their scouts, as if underlying metrics won the NHL contract or something...
The point is you constantly disparage their use, and the real reason is because it democratizes player analysis which annoys someone like you that has experience coaching ice hockey. I don't post about the "scouting craze." All of these tools -- scouting, analytics, background checks, whatever -- are part of a complete picture of player analysis.
Meanwhile, back at reality. You (meaning, me, I guess) realize when looking at these things that there are a lot of things unaccounted for...so, rightfully, I'm waiting for a better product to be put forward before jumping in head first and swimming around in information that will soon be found to be - well - marginal. Plus/minus, save pct., these "advanced" metrics all went through the same thing. These things take time to refine and improve, the first couple versions of anything like this are rarely perfect. I'm sorry that that's such an offensive take...but I don't have ADD (not saying that you do either), a player/team can go on a hot streak or a cold streak and I don't label them the best or worst team/player of all-time...similarly, some shiny new numbers appear and I don't rush over to choke them down like a mathematical whore...mikey287 wrote:it's interesting, very interesting and, like I said, I hope it continues to improve...seems like we're right on the verge of some of actually interesting things coming forward in the next few years...
When something that better accounts for the variables of the game appears, I'll look forward to scoping that out as well...maybe it will be great, maybe it won't...
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
That's the idea. You're judging a player's talents. You should be passing off that bias in the form of valuable information. Not telling me that he's "not a possession player" because he doesn't start in the offensive zone more than 41% of the time...who cares? That doesn't tell me if I want to draft him or not...slappybrown wrote:Imagine what personal biases scouts must have.shmenguin wrote:"advanced stats" are incomplete. hockey nerds tend to have too many personal biases. mush them together and things are ok.
At least this zone entry information that's out there now is a little more in tune with things that matter...like I said, it's not gonna be right right out of the box...give it time to develop a little before canonizing it...
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
I'm not sure who these people are that say "player/team go on a hot or a cold streak and...label them the best or worst...of all time" but that's exactly contrary to the point of advanced stats. Its the quintessential problem with traditional scouting in fact, in that seeing snippets of someone live fails to give a true picture. So basically, that's a complete straw man.mikey287 wrote:slappybrown wrote:I don't know what half of what you just wrote means.mikey287 wrote:Haha, I lost? If you think one person was hired to do Corsi work, you're nuts (which is what I was referring to...the "average fan's" use of Corsi and other things...people that use the term "possession player" every third sentence). These measures - when further developed - are a tool...like anything else...it's not like the teams that made these hires fired all our their scouts, as if underlying metrics won the NHL contract or something...
The point is you constantly disparage their use, and the real reason is because it democratizes player analysis which annoys someone like you that has experience coaching ice hockey. I don't post about the "scouting craze." All of these tools -- scouting, analytics, background checks, whatever -- are part of a complete picture of player analysis.Meanwhile, back at reality. You (meaning, me, I guess) realize when looking at these things that there are a lot of things unaccounted for...so, rightfully, I'm waiting for a better product to be put forward before jumping in head first and swimming around in information that will soon be found to be - well - marginal. Plus/minus, save pct., these "advanced" metrics all went through the same thing. These things take time to refine and improve, the first couple versions of anything like this are rarely perfect. I'm sorry that that's such an offensive take...but I don't have ADD (not saying that you do either), a player/team can go on a hot streak or a cold streak and I don't label them the best or worst team/player of all-time...similarly, some shiny new numbers appear and I don't rush over to choke them down like a mathematical whore...mikey287 wrote:it's interesting, very interesting and, like I said, I hope it continues to improve...seems like we're right on the verge of some of actually interesting things coming forward in the next few years...
When something that better accounts for the variables of the game appears, I'll look forward to scoping that out as well...maybe it will be great, maybe it won't...
As to the rest, you should learn more about advanced stats. Because I think you're missing out on a lot, and have a misunderstanding/ignorance of certain of the metrics.
Last edited by slappybrown on Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
Who's canonizing it? Who are you arguing with right now?mikey287 wrote:That's the idea. You're judging a player's talents. You should be passing off that bias in the form of valuable information. Not telling me that he's "not a possession player" because he doesn't start in the offensive zone more than 41% of the time...who cares? That doesn't tell me if I want to draft him or not...slappybrown wrote:Imagine what personal biases scouts must have.shmenguin wrote:"advanced stats" are incomplete. hockey nerds tend to have too many personal biases. mush them together and things are ok.
At least this zone entry information that's out there now is a little more in tune with things that matter...like I said, it's not gonna be right right out of the box...give it time to develop a little before canonizing it...
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
Who is ignoring the point of the post to focus on one word that they did not like...?
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
I ignored the rest of your post precisely because it had no point. "Not a possession player because he doesn't start in the offensive zone more than 41% of the time" is unintelligible gibberish.mikey287 wrote:Who is ignoring the point of the post to focus on one word that they did not like...?
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
I'm sorry, your honor, please strike from the record the word "canonizing" and the phrase describing some underlying metrics in a less-than-stellar light...
Any more word games, counselor?
Any more word games, counselor?
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
i don't think someone can be a judge and a lawyer during the same trial
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
Lol
Mikey you and I are destined to do this forever
Mikey you and I are destined to do this forever
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
Probably not, I specialize in Maritime law, though, so it's a whole different system...shmenguin wrote:i don't think someone can be a judge and a lawyer during the same trial
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
Seems likely...same time next month?slappybrown wrote:Lol
Mikey you and I are destined to do this forever
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
You're a crook, Captain Hook.
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
But how do they play for me on NHL14?
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
Haha. You lost.
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
I can't wait until NHL 16 introduces BAP Corsi rating.
I can just see it now...
"Great job with the 2 goals tonight, but that Corsi rating is a one way ticket back to the minor leagues"
I can just see it now...
"Great job with the 2 goals tonight, but that Corsi rating is a one way ticket back to the minor leagues"
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
Tip: Throw pucks near the net from anywhere regardless of the situation.
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
Apparently the Blues are having an outbreak of bacterial mumps in their locker room?
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Re: Canaan's thread of NPR chaos.
MRandall25 wrote:Apparently the Blues are having an outbreak of ¡bacterial mumps! in their locker room?
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