Jordan Staal bad break(leg)

[shmenguin]

I love when people say "puck possession" in the context of these numbers.

Because it creates an escape clause from an unflattering fact about Sutter's game?

He doesn't score. Whatever. Neither do other 3rd line centers. What I'm missing is what you described a few weeks ago when talking about team toughness. I'm also missing an ability to change momentum in a game with a meaningful shift. This happened in part of the Columbus series, but that was a brief flicker in the big picture. And then there's the lack of ice tilting because, as the other guy said, he's sitting back playing center field.

He had awful linemates and he started showing some promise against CBJ. So the story isn't written yet. But the burden of proof is on him to show that this defensive acumen translates into something meaningful for us.

[mikey287]

Not directed at anyone in particular, but I just find it odd that the connection is not made...

We have a poor bottom six by all accounts, all of our least favorite players play in it...Glass, Adams, the call-ups, etc. We have a coach that is routinely criticized for his lack of possession game, overuse of long, stretch passes, difficult timing plays on zone exits, a lack of identity for the club, especially in relation to the bottom six and is lambasted for not line matching, but rather, situation matching (meaning Sutter starts in the D zone, no matter what basically)...so Sutter is put into a place to fail and the numbers (based on metrics that measure - lol - "possession" for a defensive center) - apparently (?) suggest that he did or did poorly or did below average or, hell, even average, it's hard to say I guess...

But it was Sutter's fault he didn't have good "possession" numbers...?

The most atypical brand of Bylsma hockey (outside of 2009) was played in the 2014 Playoffs, and surprise, surprise, Sutter was our best player or second best player in the postseason...despite his linemates...

So, his first time in position to even reasonably succeed because we played a more defensive game that emphasized proper puck support more and he shines...so, maybe - and this is just a hypothetical - he'll do well when he's not put in a position to fail under HCMJ...maybe...because he's a smart player that has a lot of good attributes...and I think most intelligent coaches - not that I want to speak for others in the NHL - would see that he brings a lot to the table if used properly...

It's unlikely we end up with a third line center more impactful than Jordan Staal here, who had a large number of doubters for whatever reason, so it's unlikely that anyone who plays well defensively as a forward is going to garner much praise here regardless...

[meow]

[Take the Body Shoot the Puck]

I'm all for withholding judgment on Sutter until after this season. New contract, new coach, new and hopefully better line mates...entirely new situation. Let's give it a few months.

Back on topic: sending my best healing vibes to Jordan Stall.

[tfrizz]

Sutter has had squirt players as wingers.

Until now. According to some, he's got the best pair of wingers on the team this season in Bennett & Downie

[Idoit40fans]

I didnt know there was more than one person here who didnt think sutter was good.

[BurghersAndDogsSports]

I love when people say "puck possession" in the context of these numbers.

I think you get the point I was trying to make. We all understand where the numbers are derived from and they are numbers, so its
up to the individual to decide how to interpret them.

In my opinion, stats or not stats and even from my very own eyeball test his possession has been lacking. Its been horrible.
Like I sated on the previous page, I am willing to give it this season to see if the coach and/or line mates were a part or even a major part of the problem.

[Chirpin' Grinder]

Sutter definitely can and needs to show more. He can certainly play with more passion and physicality, as he proved during the playoffs. He needs to bring that game more consistently.

He also has been saddled by Bylsma and Shero. It will be interesting to see how he is deployed by Johnston.

Mikey, what type of line would you build around Sutter and who do you see as the best fit from this roster?

Personally, I'd love to see Johnston develop a real shutdown line that could be deployed against any line. Not sure the Pens really have the proper wings for that type of unit though. From the available options, I'd probably go with Spaling and Downie.

[mikey287]

I love when people say "puck possession" in the context of these numbers.

I think you get the point I was trying to make. We all understand where the numbers are derived from and they are numbers, so its
up to the individual to decide how to interpret them.

In my opinion, stats or not stats and even from my very own eyeball test his possession has been lacking. Its been horrible.
Like I sated on the previous page, I am willing to give it this season to see if the coach and/or line mates were a part or even a major part of the problem.

That message wasn't a response to anyone individually, but it's usually a red flag to me - given its overuse - that something silly is about to be said. It stole a good term from my vernacular because it is now associated with the underlying metrics crowd. Not that they are all bad - far from it - but the term has been tainted, thanks to fervent misuse/misunderstanding...

[mikey287]

Sutter definitely can and needs to show more. He can certainly play with more passion and physicality, as he proved during the playoffs. He needs to bring that game more consistently.

He also has been saddled by Bylsma and Shero. It will be interesting to see how he is deployed by Johnston.

Mikey, what type of line would you build around Sutter and who do you see as the best fit from this roster?

Personally, I'd love to see Johnston develop a real shutdown line that could be deployed against any line. Not sure the Pens really have the proper wings for that type of unit though. From the available options, I'd probably go with Spaling and Downie.

I think you have a terrific third line, RHS center in Sutter...I think he can be deployed as a player with a role, with a goal on every shift and excel. What he needs is a hard working, up-and-down, first-on-the-forecheck right winger...Pascal Dupuis is probably the best fit on the current roster. But he's not the right handedness. He's also not as physical as I might have liked. But he makes up for the lack of physicality with hockey smarts, which is a trade off I'll almost always take.

The left winger is crucial because Sutter is RHS. He will be the easier winger to pass to on the rush and on the cycle. He needs to be intelligent - moreso than the right side player - but it would be nice if he provided what the RW cannot. So, let's say it's Dupuis at RW. I'd prefer the LW to have some truculence, because it's a good thing to have a shutdown line - a little nasty...it would be nice if he had a decent shot, puck protection ability and just have the ability to not lose draws cleanly in case they are hemmed in after an icing on the wrong side of the ice, a LHS ought to take the draw...Nick Spaling is the best reasonable fit on the roster probably, but he does not have a lot of physicality, but I will assume - and this is kind of leap on my part - that the confidence in himself will rise over the course of the year and he'll handle the puck a little cleaner...

But Spaling is ideal from the sense that the LW on this line does not need to be fast, he has center experience and is very competent defensively...we're missing some muscle on the line, but in the Wales Conference, we're gonna be able to get away with that...we have to stop Giroux, Backstrom, Tavares...not Getzlaf, Kopitar, Backes...Spaling-Sutter-Dupuis can do that I believe if we have good pairing behind them, something that includes Paul Martin...in fact, if you can another player with hockey sense on LD with Martin, we could really get a lot of IQ points out there...a distinct rarity in recent times...

[Hugo Stiglitz]

Why do we want to trade Sutter?

Defense has no stats. Offense does.

Well, if you buy into all those corsi stats. He's below average when it comes to possession.

So, in order for Brandon Sutter to be considered better defensively, he would need to shoot more. Got it.

Or give up less shots?

I thought I read an article that pointed out how Sutter had poor possession numbers no matter where he started on the ice
and didn't play against quality competition. But I could be making that up.

I have never really been a fan of Sutter because I feel he has played good defensively by just being a center fielder in the neutral zone.
He barely gets an offensive zone push or cycle. He limits the other team from scoring by playing against average or below average competition
and not trying to do anything else.

in fairness (and this is probably for the expectations thread) that could have had a lot to do with having crap line mates and his role by
FHCDB. This tops my list of things I am really curious about for next season. His generating some basic pressure can go a long way
in making this a "different" team.

Ryan Wilson who's a Pens blogger wrote a couple of articles about Sutter and posted all the stats to back up that he's not a very good possession player nor very good defensively.

My real issue is that I don't completely buy into the corsi stats, but I'm just not a fan of Sutter to begin with which I've made perfectly clear. I think he's overrated defensively and simply average in every way. Average is not necessarily bad if the whole line is balanced, but my main issue was overpaying for average.

[mikey287]

By any chance, did the article(s) mention anything about Brian Gibbons, Taylor Pyatt, Jayson Megna, Joe Vitale, Tanner Glass, Chuck Kobasew and Craig Adams also "not very good possession players nor very good defensively"?

[columbia]

I'm trying to forget the Kobasew era.

[shmenguin]

we can nix the expression, "puck possession" if it makes everyone feel better. "constantly pinned into his own zone" doesn't have the same zip to it, but it's technically more accurate.

it can be his linemates' fault. it can be bylsma's fault. it can be the nature of being a 3rd line defensive center's fault. but it's something that existed, which, again, places the burden of proof on his shoulders that his game translates into something effective that helps win hockey games when they matter. he was great against CBJ when he stopped pretending he was a defender. let's hope he keeps it up and plays both ends of the ice. and let's hope it was bylsma cutting his nuts off by tethering him to his own blue line and not just the mean value of what he thinks he's supposed to do.

we can hope for the best, but it's annoying to read about his defense and his hockey smarts from intellectuals like those traits actually made any effective difference over the last couple years.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

By any chance, did the article(s) mention anything about Brian Gibbons, Taylor Pyatt, Jayson Megna, Joe Vitale, Tanner Glass, Chuck Kobasew and Craig Adams also "not very good possession players nor very good defensively"?

Like I said, I don't 100% buy into the Corsi stats. That being said, there are a few different Corsi stats that "isolate" a player's possession ability regardless of their linemates. I think advanced hockey stats are largely flawed.

I don't think anyone is really saying Sutter had solid linemates, but he was pretty average even when he played with Cooke and Kennedy for a season. Sutter is not a bad player. Sutter is just average in every single way and when better third line centers are being paid the same money, it's hard to justify keeping Sutter IMO. I really don't want to re-open this argument though.

Sutter is our 3rd line center and I hope he succeeds. He definitely has all the tools to work with this year.

[shmenguin]

Sutter gets paid what guys like him generally get paid. This contract isn't a problem. The next one will be interesting.

[meow]

Behind the Net has Sutter starting 41% of his zone starts in the offensive zone and ending 51% of his shifts in the offensive zone. Doesn't exactly scream "constantly pinned into his own zone" to me. He also has the best 5-on-5 save percentage of any regular center the Pens had last year at 92.6% compared to Malkin's 91% and Crosby's 90.6% which shows he may have played in the defensive zone a bit, but he did an excellent job limiting the damage.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

I guess what I really find funny on this board is the slack some players get over others. Sutter is 25 years old, yet many of his champions on here claim the sky is the limit for this guy, yet will be so quick do condemn a player who's played a handful of games and so confidently say, "he will never be this" or "he'll never get better at that."

Kind of like how people on this board who aren't fans of Despres so easily saying what he will or will not be as a hockey player and the kid has barely had a chance to establish himself, yet Sutter has played six NHL seasons and he gets some kind of unfounded slack.

The same goes for players like Megna, Gibbons or any other younger player who's gotten a super small sample size with the Pens and "experts" on here claim to know what they're ceiling is.

[shmenguin]

Behind the Net has Sutter starting 41% of his zone starts in the offensive zone and ending 51% of his shifts in the offensive zone. Doesn't exactly scream "constantly pinned into his own zone" to me. He also has the best 5-on-5 save percentage of any regular center the Pens had last year at 92.6% compared to Malkin's 91% and Crosby's 90.6% which shows he may have played in the defensive zone a bit, but he did an excellent job limiting the damage.

He does pretty good at keeping the Daniel paille's of the world off the score sheet

[pcm]

Hopefully he got some confidence from his postseason play and starts to assert his will on games more. Id like to see him utilize that big frame a bit more all over the ice....

Im of the camp that believes Blysma pigeon holed him into a defensive role, when hes much more of a well rounded player.

Looking for a breakout seaon from him, with a coach thats going to give him balanced linemates.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

Sutter gets paid what guys like him generally get paid. This contract isn't a problem. The next one will be interesting.

That's what I was alluding to for the most part. I won't re-open the old argument haha

[shmenguin]

Hopefully he got some confidence from his postseason play and starts to assert his will on games more. Id like to see him utilize that big frame a bit more all over the ice....

Im of the camp that believes Blysma pigeon holed him into a defensive role, when hes much more of a well rounded player.

Looking for a breakout seaon from him, with a coach thats going to give him balanced linemates.

I think everyone can agree with all of this.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

Hopefully he got some confidence from his postseason play and starts to assert his will on games more. Id like to see him utilize that big frame a bit more all over the ice....

Im of the camp that believes Blysma pigeon holed him into a defensive role, when hes much more of a well rounded player.

Looking for a breakout seaon from him, with a coach thats going to give him balanced linemates.

I think everyone can agree with all of this.

Yeah, pretty much. This is definitely his chance to show what he's made of.

Again, whatever my personal feelings of Sutter are, I don't want him to fail. If he fails, the Penguins don't do as well. I'm all in for eating crow if it means the Penguins are a more formidable team.

[meow]

Behind the Net has Sutter starting 41% of his zone starts in the offensive zone and ending 51% of his shifts in the offensive zone. Doesn't exactly scream "constantly pinned into his own zone" to me. He also has the best 5-on-5 save percentage of any regular center the Pens had last year at 92.6% compared to Malkin's 91% and Crosby's 90.6% which shows he may have played in the defensive zone a bit, but he did an excellent job limiting the damage.

He does pretty good at keeping the Daniel paille's of the world off the score sheet

Which is exactly what he was asked to do.

[columbia]

He ain't Datsyukian, but if the expectation is that he should be able to lead a shutdown line, then he needs wingers who are capable of contributing to that.