Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

[bhaw]

I like when a poster has already expressed my thoughts and I don't ever have to write all that much. Thanks Rocco.

I missed where Rocco said "durrr."

I kid, I kid...

[Rocco]

Mark Schlabach ‏@Mark_Schlabach
Was told by an #SEC coach that another #SEC coach had offered 3 #PennState players scholarships by 9:30 a.m. today

Yeah, there sure is a culture change afoot.

[Rocco]

I like when a poster has already expressed my thoughts and I don't ever have to write all that much. Thanks Rocco.

I missed where Rocco said "durrr."

I kid, I kid...

You think the Pirates didn't make me say "durrr" tonight?

[Rylan]

I like when a poster has already expressed my thoughts and I don't ever have to write all that much. Thanks Rocco.

I missed where Rocco said "durrr."

I kid, I kid...

Ever since I started posting Rocco has been nothing but an upstanding paranoid LGP individual.

[bhaw]

I like when a poster has already expressed my thoughts and I don't ever have to write all that much. Thanks Rocco.

I missed where Rocco said "durrr."

I kid, I kid...

You think the Pirates didn't make me say "durrr" tonight?

I have no access to watch Pirate games, so I am ill-equipped to answer that question.

[Kaizer]

keep jabbing at him, it makes him better during GDTs.

[DudeMan2766]

I think Rocco's parnoid that since the NCAA stepped in on this here, that they're going to "Roger Goodell" everything from now on and do as they please just because the can. Its pretty obvious that this is an incredible exception to a situation that has never happend before and most likely isnt going to happen again. I really don't think theres a reason to be that concerned.

[Rocco]

That's what I'm not getting. Are people concerned that the investigation/punishment was handled inappropriately and it's a matter of principle? Or are people concerned that PSU is getting screwed in some way here?

It seems that if PSU paid for a report to be done, that said report was used to create a punishment that PSU signed off on, and that the punishment was done expeditiously so that PSU could move forward, what is there to complain about?

PSU earned their fate. I am concerned when a large organization breaks their own rules to hand down a punishment under nebulous grounds when there are organizations better suited to hand down punishment, with no clear understanding of when or if this process can be used in the future. I'm concerned when an organization seems driven by public opinion, and I'm concerned when an organization's response to a situation caused by massive power being given to one person involves giving massive power to one person.

I seem to remember people initially saying the Freeh report would be a joke since PSU commissioned it.

Why do you keep complaining about the process, when you don't believe that the NCAA had any right to weigh in on it in the first place?

MWB asked a question, I answered. I guess I should ask permission first.

Had the NCAA followed their usual procedure and determined they did have jurisdiction to drop the hammer it would be one thing. If they truly believed that because the football team was involved and there was a hypothetical impact on recruiting and this gave the NCAA the power to lay down infractions, it would have at least been interesting to see their reasoning. Instead they broke their own rules and cut a secret deal with an emasculated school president who didn't have the courage to take the deal to the whole board. The implication through Emmert's actions is that Emmert knew he couldn't deliver his preferred justice through the NCAA's rules so he gamed the system . I don't think the NCAA had jurisdiction and I don't like how they gave themselves such an incredible amount of power that apparently has no restraints. To some people that doesn't matter, and that's fine for them I suppose. I believe there's a saying about doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

[columbia]

Its pretty obvious that this is an incredible exception to a situation that has never happend before and most likely isnt going to happen again. I really don't think theres a reason to be that concerned.

Agreed.

I think Rocco's parnoid that since the NCAA stepped in on this here, that they're going to "Roger Goodell" everything from now on and do as they please just because the can.

The NCAA is allowed to do whatever they want, when it comes to governing itself. I don't understand why that's so difficult for some people to grok. If they don't like it, then they should stop watching college sports.

[ulf]

The NCAA is allowed to do whatever they want, when it comes to governing itself. I don't understand why that's so difficult for some people to grok. If they don't like it, then they should stop watching college sports.

This is what I came in to ask...the whole "out of the NCAA's jurisdiction" argument, can't they pretty much do what they want? No one is forcing PSU to be a member right? Or vice versa.

[DudeMan2766]

The NCAA is allowed to do whatever they want, when it comes to governing itself. I don't understand why that's so difficult for some people to grok. If they don't like it, then they should stop watching college sports.

This is what I came in to ask...the whole "out of the NCAA's jurisdiction" argument, can't they pretty much do what they want? No one is forcing PSU to be a member right? Or vice versa.

Right. You have to apply for membership, which means you abide by the rulings of that organization. IF there were an issue to be had, I would say its that the NCAA has a history of not comming down hard, or hard enough on major programs that have violated rules before, but they decide to go full scale assault on PSU. But even that, given the circumstances, would be a weak argument.

[columbia]

That's what I'm not getting. Are people concerned that the investigation/punishment was handled inappropriately and it's a matter of principle? Or are people concerned that PSU is getting screwed in some way here?

It seems that if PSU paid for a report to be done, that said report was used to create a punishment that PSU signed off on, and that the punishment was done expeditiously so that PSU could move forward, what is there to complain about?

PSU earned their fate. I am concerned when a large organization breaks their own rules to hand down a punishment under nebulous grounds when there are organizations better suited to hand down punishment, with no clear understanding of when or if this process can be used in the future. I'm concerned when an organization seems driven by public opinion, and I'm concerned when an organization's response to a situation caused by massive power being given to one person involves giving massive power to one person.

I seem to remember people initially saying the Freeh report would be a joke since PSU commissioned it.

Why do you keep complaining about the process, when you don't believe that the NCAA had any right to weigh in on it in the first place?

MWB asked a question, I answered. I guess I should ask permission first.

Had the NCAA followed their usual procedure and determined they did have jurisdiction to drop the hammer it would be one thing. If they truly believed that because the football team was involved and there was a hypothetical impact on recruiting and this gave the NCAA the power to lay down infractions, it would have at least been interesting to see their reasoning. Instead they broke their own rules and cut a secret deal with an emasculated school president who didn't have the courage to take the deal to the whole board. The implication through Emmert's actions is that Emmert knew he couldn't deliver his preferred justice through the NCAA's rules so he gamed the system . I don't think the NCAA had jurisdiction and I don't like how they gave themselves such an incredible amount of power that apparently has no restraints. To some people that doesn't matter, and that's fine for them I suppose. I believe there's a saying about doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

This is one of - if not the - the greatest organizational scandals of your lifetime.

The justice system took care of Sandusky and the NCAA took care of his enablers. But hey, it you want to hang on to bureaucratic notions of what's right and wrong within someone else's private organization, have at it.

I hope you sleep well at night.

[Rocco]

I think Rocco's parnoid that since the NCAA stepped in on this here, that they're going to "Roger Goodell" everything from now on and do as they please just because the can. Its pretty obvious that this is an incredible exception to a situation that has never happend before and most likely isnt going to happen again. I really don't think theres a reason to be that concerned.

I think I've laid out my reasons for concern on many grounds about PSU's actions that go beyond rank paranoia. Thank you though for calling me paranoid. What's next, accusing me of living in my mom's basement?

I'm not the only one concerned, and not just here. Jay Bilas and Pat Forde among others have written articles/given interviews expressing concern about how this was handled. You should tweet at Bilas and call him a paranoid moron, he'd love that. This article from ESPN.com encapsulates many of my concerns.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/ ... ent-others" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reading the quotes there, I keep coming to the conclusion that Emmert knew this wasn't an NCAA matter but wasn't happy with that so he just broke their own rules and got PSU to go along with it. That bothers me. And while there likely won't be a case identical to this one, there are going to be situations that arise in the future where the NCAA is faced with criminal actions by its members and has to explain why or why not it's not intervening on ethical grounds. And if they don't intervene, people will ask questions, much like Steelers fans bray any time a player charged with a crime escapes sanction after Roethlisberger got 6 games for no charges. (I don't believe I mentioned Goodell in the thread, but if you're going to bring him up I'll use a related example).

Obviously the NCAA isn't necessarily going to run rough-shod at this point. They pick their battles wisely and try to go after soft targets after Jerry Tarkanian embarrassed their enforcement process once and took a large chunk of their money a second time. Plus if they piss off enough of the schools, the schools will walk away from the NCAA. (That's one reason I don't think the death penalty was ever really a viable option and was a bluff- it would have put the Big 10 in a bind, and they don't want to give Delany a reason to try to convince the power conferences to walk away.) The NCAA has charted a new course with no idea where exactly the course is going. That usually ends badly.

[Rocco]

Its pretty obvious that this is an incredible exception to a situation that has never happend before and most likely isnt going to happen again. I really don't think theres a reason to be that concerned.

Agreed.

I think Rocco's parnoid that since the NCAA stepped in on this here, that they're going to "Roger Goodell" everything from now on and do as they please just because the can.

The NCAA is allowed to do whatever they want, when it comes to governing itself. I don't understand why that's so difficult for some people to grok. If they don't like it, then they should stop watching college sports.

No, they aren't. The NCAA is made up of member organizations who agree to rules on self-governance. The executive board, rather than put a vote up to the members like they are supposed to do, circumvented its own rules. They did this because the members have shot down a number of past proposals Emmert tried to push through last summer (like a player stipend) and Emmert would not have that. If the NCAA could truly do what it wanted, players would be getting paid.

[columbia]

They did exactly what they wanted and that disappoints you...clearly.

[tifosi77]

They did exactly what they wanted and that disappoints you...clearly.

The NCAA's authority to act and impose sanctions in this matter are severely limited by the fact that there were no clear violations of NCAA rules. The invocation of the by-laws cited in the letter are reliant upon things like "....but not limited to" in the definition of certain infractions. That's not the most solid of footing.

It is clear that the NCAA had to do something, and that Penn State would largely accept whatever punishment was levied quietly. But let's be absolutely clear about a couple things here: 1) These punishments are not meant to be punitive to PSU as much as they are to be a shot across the bows of other university administrators with Big Football Programs that have larger-than-life status; 2) The ramifications of any punishment meted out by the NCAA has a strong likelihood of extending far beyond the bullseye of the football program and the top administrators.

That second point was, I feel, critical in the NCAA's evaluation of what steps to take here and why they couldn't arbitrarily sanction PSU. Think of it this way: $60 million in fines, and the loss of over $10 million in Big Ten conference money. What happens if any of that is passed through to students in the form of increased tuition? It's late enough in the day that the Association's offer to members of the football team to transfer without penalty is potentially meaningless for some athletes. That means there is a real possibility that some players' careers are effectively over.

The reason why those are areas of concern for the NCAA is they might - might - represent causes of action for lawsuits by individual students at Penn State. And if it could be shown that the NCAA acted without clear authority, that could prove adverse to their interests.

Those are all hypotheticals, of course. But I'm sure the Association had to weigh those potential risks against the PR risk of inaction or of inadequate action.

[columbia]

Penn State is welcome to leave the NCAA, if they are not happy with the terms of the current arrangement.

[bhaw]

Ironically the heads of the NCAA are doing exactly what the leaders of PSU are in trouble for: circumventing the chain of command and proper process for self serving interests.

[bhaw]

Penn State is welcome to leave the NCAA, if they are not happy with the terms of the current arrangement.

Sorry, but this sounds a lot like "If you don't like the rules here, you are free to move to another country." I agree with both sides: the NCAA circumvented the proper process here, but it's hard to blame them when the member organizations allow them the power to do so. Kind of like Vilma being mad at Goodell (since we are using that analogy). Vilma, as a player, signed off on the CBA that gave Goodell the power to do what he did... now you're crying foul because it happened to you. Sorry, breh.

[tifosi77]

Do we actually know if Vilma voted in favor of the CBA, tho?

[columbia]

Penn State is welcome to leave the NCAA, if they are not happy with the terms of the current arrangement.

Sorry, but this sounds a lot like "If you don't like the rules here, you are free to move to another country." I agree with both sides: the NCAA circumvented the proper process here, but it's hard to blame them when the member organizations allow them the power to do so. Kind of like Vilma being mad at Goodell (since we are using that analogy). Vilma, as a player, signed off on the CBA that gave Goodell the power to do what he did... now you're crying foul because it happened to you. Sorry, breh.

You must have enrolled in the Trolling 101 class.

It's a private organization.
If they don't like the rules, then they can hit the road.

[Rocco]

That's what I'm not getting. Are people concerned that the investigation/punishment was handled inappropriately and it's a matter of principle? Or are people concerned that PSU is getting screwed in some way here?

It seems that if PSU paid for a report to be done, that said report was used to create a punishment that PSU signed off on, and that the punishment was done expeditiously so that PSU could move forward, what is there to complain about?

PSU earned their fate. I am concerned when a large organization breaks their own rules to hand down a punishment under nebulous grounds when there are organizations better suited to hand down punishment, with no clear understanding of when or if this process can be used in the future. I'm concerned when an organization seems driven by public opinion, and I'm concerned when an organization's response to a situation caused by massive power being given to one person involves giving massive power to one person.

I seem to remember people initially saying the Freeh report would be a joke since PSU commissioned it.

Why do you keep complaining about the process, when you don't believe that the NCAA had any right to weigh in on it in the first place?

MWB asked a question, I answered. I guess I should ask permission first.

Had the NCAA followed their usual procedure and determined they did have jurisdiction to drop the hammer it would be one thing. If they truly believed that because the football team was involved and there was a hypothetical impact on recruiting and this gave the NCAA the power to lay down infractions, it would have at least been interesting to see their reasoning. Instead they broke their own rules and cut a secret deal with an emasculated school president who didn't have the courage to take the deal to the whole board. The implication through Emmert's actions is that Emmert knew he couldn't deliver his preferred justice through the NCAA's rules so he gamed the system . I don't think the NCAA had jurisdiction and I don't like how they gave themselves such an incredible amount of power that apparently has no restraints. To some people that doesn't matter, and that's fine for them I suppose. I believe there's a saying about doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

This is one of - if not the - the greatest organizational scandals of your lifetime.

The justice system took care of Sandusky and the NCAA took care of his enablers. But hey, it you want to hang on to bureaucratic notions of what's right and wrong within someone else's private organization, have at it.

I hope you sleep well at night.

I sleep fantastically well at night. I love how outraged you get when people have the nerve to disagree with you. I hope your rage at the fact that people won't just agree with you doesn't keep you up past your bedtime.

I'm sorry that I think rules are important. I wish I shared your ability to simply arrive at a conclusion and not be bound by anything that suggests I should do otherwise.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... -sanctions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"You can read the hundreds of pages of the NCAA manual from now until the Nittany Lions run onto the field to play Ohio on Sept. 1, and you won't find a single rule that Penn State violated in this case. If that doesn't mean anything, why have a rulebook?"

BTW, the NCAA did nothing to his enablers. One's dead and beyond the reach of the NCAA, though they kicked his corpse around some for show. The other 3 weren't mentioned or punished at all. But there's a smoking crater where people who had nothing to do with Sandusky used to be. Emmert hand-picked Spanier for a President's Committee but couldn't bring himself to castigate Spanier, who is the person who was supposed to be in charge. Not one person responsible for the mess was punished by the NCAA. You may argue that there was always going to be collateral damage if the NCAA was involved, and I would argue that it's precisely why the NCAA shouldn't get involved and instead leave it to the proper authorities who are best suited to deal with this stuff. Instead we have an amoral agency whose primary concern has been to get paid acting as a moral authority.

[bhaw]

Penn State is welcome to leave the NCAA, if they are not happy with the terms of the current arrangement.

Sorry, but this sounds a lot like "If you don't like the rules here, you are free to move to another country." I agree with both sides: the NCAA circumvented the proper process here, but it's hard to blame them when the member organizations allow them the power to do so. Kind of like Vilma being mad at Goodell (since we are using that analogy). Vilma, as a player, signed off on the CBA that gave Goodell the power to do what he did... now you're crying foul because it happened to you. Sorry, breh.

You must have enrolled in the Trolling 101 class.

It's a private organization.
If they don't like the rules, then they can hit the road.

I'm in my 2nd year, thank you!

Of course they can, but I'm assuming they will wait until the super conferences take over I agree with both of you in some regards (the dreaded middle ground).

[MWB]

I'm not the only one concerned, and not just here. Jay Bilas and Pat Forde among others have written articles/given interviews expressing concern about how this was handled. You should tweet at Bilas and call him a paranoid moron, he'd love that. This article from ESPN.com encapsulates many of my concerns.

Bilas seems mostly pissed that they didn't say anything about Spanier and the hypocrisy in that.... something that he routinely questions.

[tifosi77]

It's a private organization.
If they don't like the rules, then they can hit the road.

Again..... it's not about Penn State, the institution, in this case. I'm sure they agreed ahead of time to whatever the NCAA decided to do.

The problem is the collateral damage. There are almost 100,000 students enrolled in the Penn State system right now.... that's an awful lot of potential litigants.

And you keep saying "They're a private organization, they can do what they want". No, they can't. That's not how it works, and no amount of saying it is so can actually make it so.