LGP Political Discussion Thread

[bh]

Why have they continued to stay in power?

This topic here interests me. I have been doing a lot of reading on different voting methods lately and it seems that the plurality vote that we use for almost every public office in this nation is actually one of the worst ways to decide an election. Every candidate running essentially can effect all the others. This shouldn't be. It makes it too easy for the two big parties to manipulate the third party candidates and use them as pawns to get themselves elected. The more I read the more i realize that they do it all the time. If we changed to a range type voting system then every candidate is ranked not based upon other candidates but upon their individual rankings. This way you get a much more averaged view of each candidate and how people feel about them. There are multiple reasons that smaller parties have difficult times sticking and growing but I think changing the electoral process would definitely help to oust the really extreme candidates and allow more moderate people to attain office. I think that the plurality vote contributes to the polarization we see in our government. It pits on side vs the other. It makes it where you can't not vote for one side because then your vote just won't count. Anyways, if you fulfill your dream and get into constitutional law, think about the method people are elected. I think there is something there worth thinking about. The more I think about it, the more that I believe it is unfair.

[bh]

Eliminate the minimum wage.

Or, better yet, we could let people sell themselves into slavery.

I guess that's really the crux of it - protecting people we consider to be too stupid to protect themselves.

Well isn't living off the government basically the same thing as selling yourself to slavery? Once you go that way, it's a hard road back.

[bh]

The principle of the thing is all fine and dandy, but translate it into something practical. I don't want to keep subsidizing illegal immigrants, or anybody else for that matter, receiving ER treatment without insurance. Does anybody else?

You know how you could end or at least shrink the problem? Top executives at any company found to be employing illegals get one year in prison for every illegal they're employing. But we'd rather blame the dirt-poor indigent workers, about whom there is no good solution, than the companies that employ them to avoid having to pay legal wages to legal residents, about which there may be a fairly straightforward solution. How grotesque is that?

What if we made it easy to become a citizen? They are here anyways, working, living, raising children. At least as citizens they'd pay taxes.

[Corvidae]

The principle of the thing is all fine and dandy, but translate it into something practical. I don't want to keep subsidizing illegal immigrants, or anybody else for that matter, receiving ER treatment without insurance. Does anybody else?

You know how you could end or at least shrink the problem? Top executives at any company found to be employing illegals get one year in prison for every illegal they're employing. But we'd rather blame the dirt-poor indigent workers, about whom there is no good solution, than the companies that employ them to avoid having to pay legal wages to legal residents, about which there may be a fairly straightforward solution. How grotesque is that?

What if we made it easy to become a citizen? They are here anyways, working, living, raising children. At least as citizens they'd pay taxes.

Then why would they want to?

[bh]

in this atomized country,

I agree that we are atomized. Why do you think this is?

Edit: I love what this country aspired to be, and still does at points,that is what I want, the ideals it was founded on, it was such a noble experiment. The great revolutionary ideas, and thinkers. The problem now is that is all basically dead, all long term vision is gone, and so are ideas, we have reached a period of stagnancy, and this isn't new, it's been happening for about 80 plus years.

what exactly are these ideas and ideals you are referring to?

[bhaw]

The principle of the thing is all fine and dandy, but translate it into something practical. I don't want to keep subsidizing illegal immigrants, or anybody else for that matter, receiving ER treatment without insurance. Does anybody else?

You know how you could end or at least shrink the problem? Top executives at any company found to be employing illegals get one year in prison for every illegal they're employing. But we'd rather blame the dirt-poor indigent workers, about whom there is no good solution, than the companies that employ them to avoid having to pay legal wages to legal residents, about which there may be a fairly straightforward solution. How grotesque is that?

What if we made it easy to become a citizen? They are here anyways, working, living, raising children. At least as citizens they'd pay taxes.

Then why would they want to?

Because they clearly like following the laws so would do it out of the kindness of their hearts.

Better solution... for every illegal that comes into the US, we send them a Flyer fan.

[doublem]

in this atomized country,

I agree that we are atomized. Why do you think this is?

Edit: I love what this country aspired to be, and still does at points,that is what I want, the ideals it was founded on, it was such a noble experiment. The great revolutionary ideas, and thinkers. The problem now is that is all basically dead, all long term vision is gone, and so are ideas, we have reached a period of stagnancy, and this isn't new, it's been happening for about 80 plus years.

what exactly are these ideas and ideals you are referring to?

We are beat over the head all day long being told how we are different. We are also viewed very individualistic, which hurts when social issue occur which needs people to think outside of themselves, or just solely themselves.The media is a great example of this, i.e. flip-flopping, like changing one's position on an issue should be considered a sign of weakness instead of growth. T.V. does it great if you agree with so and so, then you have to on this side, like we are six. The talk show yelling format that everyone loves so much is another great example of how they try to break us apart. Plus, technology has taken a new part in all of this becasue the internet is very self- selective, so instead of learning about other ideas people tend to go to where they already agree with. I think that is a start.

America was a very noble experiment, self-governance, a land where everyone ideally was treated equally, everyone if wanted, could have a chance of success, the idea the politics or government had a role to play in shaping a country, not just big money, and that people were rational enough to take part in government, which people in power now don't think we are, they think we are stupid and need to controlled by things. (consumerism). I think many see government as a form of control which might be true to some degree, but I think what government should be is a sign of human progress, which I think the founders thought.

[doublem]

Not really, since having the government "take care of you" basically has you living under the poverty line anyways. If you got rid of the mim rage, people could sell themselves in theory. That is a problem I have with that thinking, if everything has a monetary value attached to it, should people be able to sell themselves, since they are free to do so, which would lead to a market for slaves?

[doublem]

How can this be?

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archiv ... president/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ExPatriatePen]

Not really, since having the government "take care of you" basically has you living under the poverty line anyways. If you got rid of the mim rage, people could sell themselves in theory. That is a problem I have with that thinking, if everything has a monetary value attached to it, should people be able to sell themselves, since they are free to do so, which would lead to a market for slaves?

Anyone want a "sightly" damaged liver?

[HomerPenguin]

What if we made it easy to become a citizen? They are here anyways, working, living, raising children. At least as citizens they'd pay taxes.

Highly problematic, because they're breaking the law, and because it lets the next 13 million illegals know that eventually they'll be allowed to stay legally too.

[HomerPenguin]

Eliminate the minimum wage.

Or, better yet, we could let people sell themselves into slavery.

I guess that's really the crux of it - protecting people we consider to be too stupid to protect themselves.

Why? Eliminating the minimum wage is going to create a whole bunch of wage slaves anyway. Why not give people the choice to get that money up front at its highest value? Are we not free to sell away our freedom in the Almighty Marketplace?

[pittsoccer33]

How can this be?

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archiv ... president/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lets go through and ask teachers to name them. I'm sure a large percent of them can't.

[MWB]

How can this be?

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archiv ... president/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lets go through and ask teachers to name them. I'm sure a large percent of them can't.

Yes, teachers is stoopid.

[MWB]

How can this be?

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archiv ... president/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you read through the commentary below the results it's pretty easy to see how it can be. Not real scientific calling up 1000 kids and asking them these questions, stating that it's fine to say "I don't know" for an answer.

[Guinness]

I guess that's really the crux of it - protecting people we consider to be too stupid to protect themselves.

Why? Eliminating the minimum wage is going to create a whole bunch of wage slaves anyway. Why not give people the choice to get that money up front at its highest value? Are we not free to sell away our freedom in the Almighty Marketplace?

I'm not sure I'm following you... I was being facetious.

I would advocate eliminating the minimum wage in a truly free market. What we have is a centrally-administered economy.

[tonysoprano]

The minimum wage is a highly antiquated irrelavent discussion. Very very few individuals live off of the minimum wage, and the bulk of individuals working on the minimum wage are high schoolers and elderly individuals looking to keep busy, or being forced to go out and "do something" by their parents. So this crap about letting people sell themselves into "slave labor" is a joke, except for the minute percentage of individuals that actually try to live off of a minimum wage salary.

No - the only reason, truly, that there is a minimum wage, is because union contracts are tied to that figure - and when the minimum wage goes up, so does their highly inflated union salary.

[Ron`]

I guess that's really the crux of it - protecting people we consider to be too stupid to protect themselves.

Why? Eliminating the minimum wage is going to create a whole bunch of wage slaves anyway. Why not give people the choice to get that money up front at its highest value? Are we not free to sell away our freedom in the Almighty Marketplace?

I'm not sure I'm following you... I was being facetious.

I would advocate eliminating the minimum wage in a truly free market. What we have is a centrally-administered economy.

And truth be told, the illegals at least, they typically make more, sometimes much more than minimum wage.... up to 3 X minimum wage in my experience... difference is they get no benefits period from the employer including stuff the employer is supposed to pay for and provide by law... Examples unemployment, workmans comp etc...

Which is why most of the politico's won't tackle the real issue, they just want to turn a cheek and declare them citizens. Which will make them unemployable again in todays world. Meaning they will be on the government dime going forward either way....

[stopper40]

No - the only reason, truly, that there is a minimum wage, is because union contracts are tied to that figure - and when the minimum wage goes up, so does their highly inflated union salary.

Shhhhhhhh, the unions dont want people to know that. SEIU will send their thugs after you if you're not careful

[HomerPenguin]

Damn the unions! If it weren't for them we could be living in a nineteenth century UTOPIA!

[tonysoprano]

Damn the unions! If it weren't for them we could be living in a nineteenth century UTOPIA!

If it were the 19th century, at least there'd be call to have unions, when company's truly took advantage of their employees. With round the clock 24 hour news and the internet, any true abuse of employees would be exposed in common day American within a half hour of it actually going down.

Nope. Nowadays, unions acts as nothing more than legalized extortion. You needn't look any further than the dozens of employees that were paid $32/ hr to sit and play spades in the GM plants to recognize that. It's a joke.

So yes - damn the unions.

[MWB]

Damn the unions! If it weren't for them we could be living in a nineteenth century UTOPIA!

If it were the 19th century, at least there'd be call to have unions, when company's truly took advantage of their employees. With round the clock 24 hour news and the internet, any true abuse of employees would be exposed in common day American within a half hour of it actually going down.

Nope. Nowadays, unions acts as nothing more than legalized extortion. You needn't look any further than the dozens of employees that were paid $32/ hr to sit and play spades in the GM plants to recognize that. It's a joke.

So yes - damn the unions.

Some unions are bad, some unions are still useful. Or, I guess one could say, most unions still have some useful aspects to them.

[tonysoprano]

Damn the unions! If it weren't for them we could be living in a nineteenth century UTOPIA!

If it were the 19th century, at least there'd be call to have unions, when company's truly took advantage of their employees. With round the clock 24 hour news and the internet, any true abuse of employees would be exposed in common day American within a half hour of it actually going down.

Nope. Nowadays, unions acts as nothing more than legalized extortion. You needn't look any further than the dozens of employees that were paid $32/ hr to sit and play spades in the GM plants to recognize that. It's a joke.

So yes - damn the unions.

Some unions are bad, some unions are still useful. Or, I guess one could say, most unions still have some useful aspects to them.

Most unions have "some" useful aspects. That does sound like a ringing endorsement. They're an antiquated abrasive cash grab, and nothing more.

[HomerPenguin]

They're an antiquated abrasive cash grab, and nothing more.

Exactly! If it weren't for unions, we could go back to the glorious days when only ownership and management made abrasive cash grabs! Why, as recently as 1965 CEOs made an average of 24 times the salary of an average worker. By 2005, thanks to the pernicious money-grabbing power of our union overlords, that figure had been cut to a mere 262 times what an average worker makes! ARGH! It makes me so MAD!

[tonysoprano]

They're an antiquated abrasive cash grab, and nothing more.

Exactly! If it weren't for unions, we could go back to the glorious days when only ownership and management made abrasive cash grabs! Why, as recently as 1965 CEOs made an average of 24 times the salary of an average worker. By 2005, thanks to the pernicious money-grabbing power of our union overlords, that figure had been cut to a mere 262 times what an average worker makes! ARGH! It makes me so MAD!

Oh, how I do love the political beauty of envy!

Fact is, the problem with unskilled labor is that anyone can do it. CEOs make what they make because they've acquired a skillset. The bigger question - how much of a P&L does the CEO's salary take up compared to hit all that unskilled labor has on the bottom line? I think you'd be pretty surprised. Not that the facts smacking you in the face would do anything.

But by all means! Let's mandate that everyone make $40 an hour! It'd be completely awesome! Because at the end of the day, $40 an hour may as well be $0 an hour, when the company can't turn a profit big enough to support it's union.