LGP Political Discussion Thread

[Ron`]

although I suspect you're remembering things the way you want to remember them.

Wow....what a nasty remark.

Since everybody remembers things they way they want to remember them, I'm not sure where the offense lies. I'm particularly not sure how it's more offensive than your suggestion that your high school history teachers deliberately failed to teach their students properly because they were all anti-Christian zealots, but to each his own I guess.

I lived child labor and it taught me alot about values... think about that....

[HomerPenguin]

And there's the problem in a nutshell. Who made that the "appropriate" definition? Isn't the "pro-liberty" position classically liberal? Or are we decoupling "left" and "liberal" too? Why so hung up on which direction we're going?

We're really overly examining this, aren't we? Alright - I submit. I'm a radical centrist. I've got authoritarians all around me. To the left there are socialist-authoritarians and to the right there are fascist-authoritarians. You leftists-authoritarians don't want do be associated with rightist-authoritarians. I can understand that. From where I sit, there is precious little difference.

That works. It fits with how most libertarians seem to conceive of themselves: alone on their island of rugged virtue, surrounded by swarms of Pol Pot wannabes.

[HomerPenguin]

Since everybody remembers things they way they want to remember them, I'm not sure where the offense lies. I'm particularly not sure how it's more offensive than your suggestion that your high school history teachers deliberately failed to teach their students properly because they were all anti-Christian zealots, but to each his own I guess.

I lived child labor and it taught me alot about values... think about that....

As soon as you explain to me what it means, I'll think about it.

[Ron`]

Since everybody remembers things they way they want to remember them, I'm not sure where the offense lies. I'm particularly not sure how it's more offensive than your suggestion that your high school history teachers deliberately failed to teach their students properly because they were all anti-Christian zealots, but to each his own I guess.

I lived child labor and it taught me alot about values... think about that....

As soon as you explain to me what it means, I'll think about it.

As a child it was necessary to work for things I needed due to my families economic stature. I paid for my clothes for school, dental appointments/repairs and eye glasses etc.... It taught me the value of things and helped me realize that the world is not one big handout....

[HomerPenguin]

I reserve terms like that for people like Dick Cheney, who is an unrestrained authoritarian without a particular ideology beyond that.

Well, gee, that's awfully serendipitous, isn't it? I certainly don't disagree with you... however it creates an awfully convenient chasm between an ideology you espouse and Dick Cheney who you rightfully abhor, doesn't it?

I guess. I wasn't really trying to create any ideological chasms, simply saying that, unlike apparently everybody else, I don't throw epithets like "Nazi" around for fun.

Besides, it seems no more or less serendipitous than the "right good, left bad" distinction you've set up for us.

[HomerPenguin]

As soon as you explain to me what it means, I'll think about it.

As a child it was necessary to work for things I needed due to my families economic stature. I paid for my clothes for school, dental appointments/repairs and eye glasses etc.... It taught me the value of things and helped me realize that the world is not one big handout....

OK...and that applies to a discussion of how Christianity is taught in high school because...?

[HomerPenguin]

Who said anything about redistributing land to the poor? The tenet talks about land reform "suitable to our needs." In practice Nazi land policy resembled feudalism more than it did anything we'd recognize today.

Cite? I know from other sources (i.e. Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare State by Gotz Aly) where that land went, and “our needs” wasn’t anything a conservative would consider legitimate. Typically, it meant taking land from murdered Jews, Poles, and other minorities and handing it over to disaffected members of the Volk.

I'm still waiting to hear where "redistributing land to the poor" comes into the equation. Sounds like we were redistributing land from undesirables to the master race.

Explain how they are right then. What about the other planks I cited? How are they right-wing?

I never said they were. Again, you're the one trying to pound the Nazis into a tight ideological box here, not me.

[Ron`]

This is what my "wikipedia" post was about....

Amen... if you can't find a media link no matter how incredulous it can't be fact....

Wiki does have links now.

They only allow facts to be added with a valid media link or whatever internet link they deem. Don't care if you were actually there, have the facts recorded in you government record, medals to show it etc... to end this diatribe "what evidence do you have".

[Guinness]

That works. It fits with how most libertarians seem to conceive of themselves: alone on their island of rugged virtue, surrounded by swarms of Pol Pot wannabes.

Rightly... er, correctly, I might add.

[MWB]

Second, my niece was attending a PUBLIC and therefore STATE (read: govt) FUNDED school. She came home one day to tell us that she was taught that President Obama is our savior. Sounds like indoctrination to me.

I'm not saying that is mandated curriculum by the state, but it sure was taught at a school funded by them.

I'd be interested to know if that was really what was said or if there was a context to it. I'm not saying that some teachers say dumb things, but sometimes kids go home and say something completely different than what was said by a teacher. Did your niece's parents question the teacher about this?

Look, my college age kids were indoctrinated in the same fashion, they voted for the saviour. Now they both realize what a mistake it was to believe what was sold to them. Not that the other choice was better necessarily, but a complete pack of lies....

Your kids were taught by their teachers to vote a certain way or to think certain things politically? Again, I won't argue that some teachers may espouse certain things in a classroom that don't pertain to their subject, but I'd say that's a very small minority. Most teachers will try to teach kids to think for themselves while teaching their subject matter.

[DelPen]

OK, it seems people are getting hung up on labels. So let's clear the air, take this test (http://www.politicalcompass.org/test" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and tell us what you are so I can better tell who my friends and enemies are

My results:


And here's where some people of history rate, not that there are 4 points and fascism is there along with right, left and anarchy:

[Ron`]

The Nazis were also against child labor and one of their 25 points reads "All citizens must have equal rights and obligations," which I guess makes me a Nazi because I agree with those things.

This is the quote homer that I was referencing. I don't have the patience of jobe or your apparent skills at quote editing to get the point accross. Child labor is not a bad thing, unless you are talking about chaining a kid to a loom. Thanks for pointing out my lack of quote skills and making me look like a fool. Typical elitism on your part imo though.

[Guinness]

I reserve terms like that for people like Dick Cheney, who is an unrestrained authoritarian without a particular ideology beyond that.

Well, gee, that's awfully serendipitous, isn't it? I certainly don't disagree with you... however it creates an awfully convenient chasm between an ideology you espouse and Dick Cheney who you rightfully abhor, doesn't it?

I guess. I wasn't really trying to create any ideological chasms, simply saying that, unlike apparently everybody else, I don't throw epithets like "Nazi" around for fun.

Besides, it seems no more or less serendipitous than the "right good, left bad" distinction you've set up for us.

Observed from a position of how the individual is respected within the social contract, what other way is there to distinguish it? More to the point, WHY is there any other way to distinguish it? Shall we observe the social contract from the position of a "group"? What is a group? A group is a construct with no real, concrete characteristics. A human being -- the most fundamental social construct that we can conceive -- cannot (by definition) be wholly respected as a member of a "group".

[Guinness]

OK, it seems people are getting hung up on labels. So let's clear the air, take this test (http://www.politicalcompass.org/test" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

The questions asked in this quiz are awful...

[DelPen]

OK, it seems people are getting hung up on labels. So let's clear the air, take this test (http://www.politicalcompass.org/test" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

The questions asked in this quiz are awful...

stop whining

[Ron`]

Your kids were taught by their teachers to vote a certain way or to think certain things politically? Again, I won't argue that some teachers may espouse certain things in a classroom that don't pertain to their subject, but I'd say that's a very small minority. Most teachers will try to teach kids to think for themselves while teaching their subject matter.

Frankly YES and they freely admit it now as the nonsense rolls forward. One of which is a teacher too herself.....

[Guinness]

OK, it seems people are getting hung up on labels. So let's clear the air, take this test (http://www.politicalcompass.org/test" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

The questions asked in this quiz are awful...

stop whining

[jenpens325]

I'm not participating in this thread, but why not post results:

[MWB]

Your kids were taught by their teachers to vote a certain way or to think certain things politically? Again, I won't argue that some teachers may espouse certain things in a classroom that don't pertain to their subject, but I'd say that's a very small minority. Most teachers will try to teach kids to think for themselves while teaching their subject matter.

Frankly YES and they freely admit it now as the nonsense rolls forward. One of which is a teacher too herself.....

All through their schooling? What were they told in elementary and middle school? I just find this baffling because I've never encountered it. I've heard about how some professors tend to push things certain ways in college, but not really before then.

[doublem]

The Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: -6.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.26

[Guinness]

Your kids were taught by their teachers to vote a certain way or to think certain things politically? Again, I won't argue that some teachers may espouse certain things in a classroom that don't pertain to their subject, but I'd say that's a very small minority. Most teachers will try to teach kids to think for themselves while teaching their subject matter.

MWB, you've just elucidated the fundamental flaw of collectivism... there is no, "teachers". There may be fundamental similarities between most teachers, but the fact remains that there is no such thing as, "teachers"; just as there is no such thing as "black people"; "white people"; "rich people"; "poor people"; etc. Any identification of such groups is justifiably insulting to the individual.

[Ron`]

Your kids were taught by their teachers to vote a certain way or to think certain things politically? Again, I won't argue that some teachers may espouse certain things in a classroom that don't pertain to their subject, but I'd say that's a very small minority. Most teachers will try to teach kids to think for themselves while teaching their subject matter.

Frankly YES and they freely admit it now as the nonsense rolls forward. One of which is a teacher too herself.....

All through their schooling? What were they told in elementary and middle school? I just find this baffling because I've never encountered it. I've heard about how some professors tend to push things certain ways in college, but not really before then.

I come from a long line of public educators including my offspring now. I fully understand the political system effects and it's implications on continued employment. Quit dodging the reality of public education, let alone the philosphical nonsense professed at the collegiate level.

[Shyster]

I'm still waiting to hear where "redistributing land to the poor" comes into the equation. Sounds like we were redistributing land from undesirables to the master race.

I know from other sources that the transfer went from wealthy Jews and other undesirables to poor Germans and other members of the Volk. Nazi Germany operated a welfare state. I read more than Wikipedia.

I never said they were. Again, you're the one trying to pound the Nazis into a tight ideological box here, not me.

So you don't know where they go, but you disagree with me that they belong largely to the political left? That sure seems to be what you are saying. How do you classify them, then? Or do you believe Nazism is ineffable?

[DelPen]

http://www.politicalcompass.org/printab ... &soc=-6.26

That is mine. How do you get the image to come up? Oh well.

right click the image, select properties and past the link into an image tag:

[Guinness]

http://www.politicalcompass.org/printab ... &soc=-6.26

That is mine. How do you get the image to come up? Oh well.

right click the image, select properties and past the link into an image tag:

Looks like doublem is hangin' in the libertarian bubble...