Larionov and the Marginalization of Talent

[shmenguin]

good stuff from igor

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck- ... 23263.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this year it's becoming more obvious. the league is a battle of X's and O's, where every coach gives a silent nod to the opposition saying, "i won't try anything entertaining if you don't". couple this with the tolerance of obstruction by officials rapidly increasing and i think we're on the verge of the NHL having a significant issue. these games just aren't much fun anymore - relative to what they should be. if you want entertainment, you have to hope for something dirty to happen, causing both teams throw away the original game plan.

i don't know what the answer is. eventually, if there aren't any bright ideas, we'll probably have to reset and go with the 2006 model of calling every little thing a penalty.

as an aside...this is a big reason why the defensive wizards like you-know-who on the pens aren't terribly meaningful. their raw talent has been replaced by their coach's game plan. you can turn a scrub into a serviceable drone as long as they're obedient and meet a low threshold of talent. for a defensive forward to make a significant impact above and beyond the next guy, they need to either be an all around talent like bergeron or zetterberg, or drive the other team bat s*** crazy, like...well...bergeron or zetterberg.

[mikey287]

Didn't read the article, but based on the commentary in the OP it sounds like something that I have been discussing for a while now...the game is too fast for its own good, the Professor is right.

Lessen the rosters, lessen equipment - both will slow the game down and increase the talent on display.

[Digitalgypsy66]

Here's the direct link, so as to not give noted content regurgitor Puck Daddy the traffic: http://www.theplayerstribune.com/miracl ... ey-russia/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Avyran]

? Nah Mikey, it's different. He's saying the skill of the youth is basically beaten out of them in order to play simple. The end goal is the same, but the means to get that goal are very different.

"Many young players who are intelligent and can see the game four moves ahead are not valued. They’re told “simple, simple, simple.” That mentality is kind of boring. Nobody wants to get fired. Nobody wants to get sent down to the minors. If you look at the coaches in Juniors and minor league hockey, many of them were not skill players. It’s a lot of former enforcers and grinders who take these coaching jobs. Naturally, they tell their players to be just like them.

"Many young players who are intelligent and can see the game four moves ahead are not valued.” This is completely the case. Young players have to fit the system, fit the philosophy, do their job before ever getting the chance be an offensive game-changer.

How many offensive prospects are jettisoned to the fourth line ghetto because of a defensive lapse? How many forgo their potential for the sake of attempting to play mistake-free hockey?

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The equally interesting idea put forth by Larionov is that most coaches, in the NHL and down the ranks, weren’t offensive dynamos, and he’s right: The total points scored by players who end up as executives rather than coaches probably eclipses those of the men behind the bench.

And from the actual article from Larionov...

I played for 12 seasons and won three Stanley Cups, and I never changed the way I played. I was 5’10”, 165 pounds. If I was just coming into the league today, I would probably be considered too small. I would be sent down to the minors after my first or second neutral zone turnover.

I am not exaggerating. There’s a reason why Pavel Datsyuk went undrafted in 1996 and 1997.

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We lose a lot of Pavel Datsyuks to the closed-minded nature of the AHL and NHL.

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I roll my eyes whenever I hear people talk about how fast the game is now and how sophisticated the systems have become. Watching the game, does it really seem much faster? Does it really seem more advanced? We had a saying in the Soviet days that I wish more coaches and scouts would adopt today: It’s not how fast you skate, it’s how fast you think.

[mikey287]

Oh ok, thanks for posting. I disagree, the game is fast...not good fast, but fast fast...maybe bad fast...more advanced? Certainly not. I agree with him in that regard. This is not the best product the NHL has put out currently.

And yes, as someone who has coached at the youth level and spoke to others that have...Larionov is correct...it's tough to find creative coaches that augment skills while still improving the fundamentals of their players. Skaters and goalies alike. A lack of quality coaches is an issue at youth levels all over North America. I'm very different at the "adult" level than I am at the youth level...it's like the compliment sandwich thread we have in PR...I don't want kids to be benched for taking a chance that they believed could work...I just insist that if they think it's right, whatever it is, just do it at 100%...right or wrong, give it what you got...and we'll worry about how to improve, what to look for next time, etc. afterwards...

[meow]

Ehhhh. Not sold here, Larionov.

[pcm]

And yet Datsyuk still made it... Perhaps even his success is defined by the challenges that he had to overcome. Are there 10 Datsyuks who didn't make it? Maybe, but I doubt 9 of them had the work ethic required to succeed at a professional level.

For 95% of players, teaching work ethic, discipline, structure, etc is exactly what they need to find their role and contribute. For the 5%, the artists on ice, there's a different set of challenges. They usually find the one coach or teacher along the way who recognizes their talent and gives them the few nuggets that they need to propel them through their development. But if they don't learn hard work, they're still not going to make it anymore. The bar of what the other 95% can accomplish has risen to the point where that difference in talent is not enough...unless its bolstered by professional training, discipline, etc. Igor's argument seems to be the other way around, that the talent is being stiffled. I think he's got it backwards. Everyone is just so much better nowadays.

[shmenguin]

Ehhhh. Not sold here, Larionov.

i don't think it's the end-all be-all of the issue, but overly conservative task masters behind the bench are certainly a buzz kill.

ultimately, the biggest problem is that defensemen and goalies are too good. and they're good because...

1) systems are getting more and more refined
2) players are so damn athletic

even bad defensemen/goalies are still aided by those 2 factors. teams without talent on D should be bad at D. it should be almost impossible to overcome that hurdle. but here we are.

[meow]

Ehhhh. Not sold here, Larionov.

i don't think it's the end-all be-all of the issue, but overly conservative task masters behind the bench are certainly a buzz kill.

ultimately, the biggest problem is that defensemen and goalies are too good. and they're good because...

1) systems are getting more and more refined
2) players are so damn athletic

even bad defensemen/goalies are still aided by those 2 factors. teams without talent on D should be bad at D. it should be almost impossible to overcome that hurdle. but here we are.

Pretty much. The emphasis is on defense first. "Defense wins championships." "Mistakes end up in the back of our net." "Take care of the blue lines." Goaltending went from some crazy guy they could pay to get in front of some shots to the most athletic players on the team. I think creativity is still there, but it is much more individualized.

[Avyran]

Creativity is certainly stifled by the slashes, interference, and outright physical bruteness of the NHL, too. Smaller players like Gaudreau, and even Drouin... I worry how long of a career they're going to have in this current rendition of the NHL.

[pcm]

I think the next break throughs in creativity will come from how specific lines play. That is, getting 3 forwards (and maybe a dman) in sync in such a way that they are able to anticipate 10 moves ahead, instead of 4.

We see it now mostly with duos. Getzlaf/Perry, Ovie/Backstrom, Seguin/Benn, Tavares/Okposo, Giroux/Voracek, Malkin/Neal (oh wait). But what happens when 3 guys get in sync on that level?

[mikey287]

Creativity is certainly stifled by the slashes, interference, and outright physical bruteness of the NHL, too. Smaller players like Gaudreau, and even Drouin... I worry how long of a career they're going to have in this current rendition of the NHL.

Yes, but games in the 70's and 80's and even the 90's had much more slashing, much more interference, much less penalties and offense thrived...it's that the game has out-paced itself...calling interference on the transition step on dump-ins is nice and all, but it doesn't solve what's wrong...it just sprinkles power plays around a melted sundae...

[mikey287]

I think the next break throughs in creativity will come from how specific lines play. That is, getting 3 forwards (and maybe a dman) in sync in such a way that they are able to anticipate 10 moves ahead, instead of 4.

We see it now mostly with duos. Getzlaf/Perry, Ovie/Backstrom, Seguin/Benn, Tavares/Okposo, Giroux/Voracek, Malkin/Neal (oh wait). But what happens when 3 guys get in sync on that level?

Yeah, a lot of coaches have moved away from lines...going with duos instead...allowing the third player to do a lot of the grind work, a complementary scorer, a goal line back of hockey...

The key would be to once again steal from the Soviets...five-man units would help because the key to scoring is attacking with four...

[Avyran]

Yeah, but the average physical capability of the player has gone up a huge amount. The training routines, practice methods, game reviews, technology, dietary control, medical practice, etc... because of this setup, players are faster, stronger, more capable, and insert more Daftpunk adjectives. The skill was there in the past, but that's pretty much the only same thing as the game today (and I'd argue the same in every sport).

[Sam's Drunk Dog]

Actually calling penalties would be a start. Yeah, it would be annoying at first with the number of penalties, but players will eventually adapt and stop committing penalties and the skilled players will be able to take advantage.

[AlexPKeaton]

I completely agree with Igor. The NHL is at mid 90s levels of awfulness right now. I barely watch Pens games anymore, I usually have them on while doing something else. As soon as the Pens get bounced I will be done with the NHL for the year. They need to fix this somehow, probably starting with actually calling penalties again.

And of course, Bettman wants to expand the league further turning this crap league into crapness.

[Desiato]

Because of the Miracle on Ice, there is a misconception that the Soviet style was destroyed by the scrappy Americans on that day in 1980. In reality, my generation dominated that decade, winning Gold at four World Championships and two Olympics. I was lucky enough to finally make it out of the U.S.S.R. in 1989. I played for 12 seasons and won three Stanley Cups

His generation of Russian players dominated amateurs. When he finally made it to the NHL, he was lucky enough to play for the most successful team of that period coached by the legendary Scotty Bowman, a former minor league player. While he was a contributor, he certainly wasn't a catalyst on that team.

I don't agree with most of Larionov's article.

[meow]

I read the article again and the only thing I kept thinking was; "No duh a smaller European born and trained player doesn't like the NA game."

[Idoit40fans]

He apparently doesnt know what "miracle" means.