WBS Pens @ Hershey Bears Game 3 Official Thread

Lesky · Post by **Lesky** » Sun May 07, 2006 5:14 pm

A couple of Penguins penalties and as you would expect 1-0 Hershey....

letsgopens87 · Post by **letsgopens87** » Sun May 07, 2006 5:20 pm

Hershey got a penatly.

Lesky · Post by **Lesky** » Sun May 07, 2006 5:28 pm

What the hell is Fleury doing? IÃ‚Â´m getting real worried now. Maybe Grace is just exagerating!?

letsgopens87 · Post by **letsgopens87** » Sun May 07, 2006 5:31 pm

What do the refs have against WBS? I don't understand.

Bowser · Post by **Bowser** » Sun May 07, 2006 5:42 pm

Its called laziness and terrible player development. There is no excuse for any goalie in the NHL to be as bad as Fleury and others are handling the puck.

There's just no excuse.

Practice and coaching can make goalies better, just ask Johan Hedberg.

Henry Hank · Post by **Henry Hank** » Sun May 07, 2006 5:49 pm

Wow, shots 15-4 after one? WBS continues to get dominated.

Doesn't look like another comeback from 2-0 is in the cards here. I never really got the sense the Baby Pens were a championship team anyway. After Therrien was promoted and they lost the bulk of their best players, they were never really that great. Getting Whitney and Fleury back helps, but they have to be missing Armstrong, Surovy, and Ouellet. They don't have any go-to guys offensively. Guys like Talbot, Stone, and Filewich ultimately probably are third or fourth liners in the NHL, and even Christensen's more of a supporting player. The three guys I mentioned aren't exactly impact players either, but at least they'd give them quality depth at the AHL-level.

Lesky · Post by **Lesky** » Sun May 07, 2006 6:36 pm

Thats it. IÃ‚Â´m off to bed.

Post by **Jasmine** » Sun May 07, 2006 7:12 pm

Do you think this team misses MT?

They seem to be playing like the Pittsburgh Penguins before MT came up and got them organized.

letsgopens87 · Post by **letsgopens87** » Sun May 07, 2006 7:45 pm

Did anyone finish listening to the game? Final score?

Post by **the wicked child** » Sun May 07, 2006 10:51 pm

Looks like 4-1.

To further clairfy, Christensen had the lone Pens goal on the PP in the 3rd... the Pens finished 1-9 on the PP. That is unacceptable. Hershey finished 2-7.

They were only outshot 27-23 in this one.

pensfan66 · Post by **pensfan66** » Mon May 08, 2006 8:25 am

Hello to all was at the game in Hershey last night. Wow it was sooo bad. Contrary to belief Bonvie was not undisciplined he got called on some crap, because he is bonvie. The ref looked like he was about 19 and had no idea what was going on. the officiating was terrible. Fleury god love him was a mess. I adore this kid but WOW he was really bad. He almost scored in his own net like 3 different times. That was seriously the worst I have ever seen him play. MT was at the game but not on the bench. Pens looked like they are done. Oh and by the way Whitney looked like S***! He couldn't do anything not hold the point on the power play not even just connect on a pass. Everyone played like crap.

Vanbiesbrouck · Post by **Vanbiesbrouck** » Mon May 08, 2006 12:07 pm

Although the team played poorly, there was no way they could have won the game with how Fleury played. It could have easily been 6-0 after 2 periods had it not been for a few posts and pucks that hit Fleury and trickled wide.

I'm starting to get a little worried about his development. Sure, he's young, but unless it's a quick reaction save, he looks horrible, even at the NHL level in meaningless games. He kicks rebounds into the slot, can't handle the puck, and has yet to show on a more than game-by-game basis that he can steal one for his team.

Let's hope he can learn from this, get a goalie coach in here, and gte him to the level that he has shown the promise to reach on very few and far between occasions over the past 2 years.

DelPen · Post by **DelPen** » Mon May 08, 2006 12:14 pm

If they keep Mullen in WBS next yar I think I will puke. He sucked as an assistant in th NHL and he's blowing WBS's season as well. Their PP has been atrocious since he took over. I don't care if they are missing rmstrong, Surovy or Ouellett, it should not be that bad.

Goalie · Post by **Goalie** » Mon May 08, 2006 11:09 pm

Vanbiesbrouck wrote:Although the team played poorly, there was no way they could have won the game with how Fleury played. It could have easily been 6-0 after 2 periods had it not been for a few posts and pucks that hit Fleury and trickled wide.

I'm starting to get a little worried about his development. Sure, he's young, but unless it's a quick reaction save, he looks horrible, even at the NHL level in meaningless games. He kicks rebounds into the slot, can't handle the puck, and has yet to show on a more than game-by-game basis that he can steal one for his team.

Let's hope he can learn from this, get a goalie coach in here, and gte him to the level that he has shown the promise to reach on very few and far between occasions over the past 2 years.

So Fluery only looks good on quick reaction shots? That might be my new favorite critique of him. Also how many goalies do you know that could steal a game for the 2nd worst team in the league?

As a side note shots that hit the posts are not even counted as shots on goal, no goalpost keeps a goal from being scored, if the majority of the puck is on net it will deflect in off the post. All goalposts do for goalies is kick shots back in front of the net that were not on goal to begin with.

I did not see the game so I will defer to you but if Fluery was in position to get a piece of a shot and it trickled wide would that not indicate good position? Unless it was a weak shot and he totally misplayed it, which is possible since as I said I did not see the game, but if he got a piece of a good shot and it goes wide then that is good positioning.

I am not here to be a Fluery apologist as I said in a thread about an earlier game that evolved into a thread about him, the general hockey fan knows so little about goaltending and what it involves which is why there is so much debate/outlandish critiques of Fluery and most goalies in general. He is 21, he is going to be inconsistent as he continues to develop into the goalie he will ultimately be.

As a side note everyone's new favorite young goalie Cam Ward who is playing very well right now for Carolina in the playoffs had worse numbers than Fluery in the regular season while playing for a much better team.

Post by **relantel** » Tue May 09, 2006 1:02 am

man, what an egg again! Guess this team in the 2nd half and playoffs is not as good as the one when Therrien was behind the bench. Bet the wish they had a bunch of guys back down...

Vanbiesbrouck · Post by **Vanbiesbrouck** » Tue May 09, 2006 1:57 pm

Fleury looked lost. Rebounds that trickle wide are one thing, but these were unscreened point shots that squeezed through his legs, etc. The shots that he had to react to quickly, he looked good on. There were at least twice as many soft shots that should have been routine that he misplayed or left soft rebounds.

Nowhere did I say that I expect him to lead a bad defensive team as a 20 year old. However, I've yet to see him show that he can steal wins throughout the season, which could be what will make or break a borderline playoff team that we might be fielding this upcoming season.

As a side note in repsonse to your side note....the post shot I referred to was when Fleury came out to play the puck, tried to play it around the goal to a d-man and shot it off of his own short side post. Later in the game, he played it from the low circle off the side of his own net.

As you said, you weren't at the game, so I'm not sure why you are so quick to critique, but I hope this clears it up for you.

Goalie · Post by **Goalie** » Wed May 10, 2006 10:59 pm

Vanbiesbrouck wrote:Fleury looked lost. Rebounds that trickle wide are one thing, but these were unscreened point shots that squeezed through his legs, etc. The shots that he had to react to quickly, he looked good on. There were at least twice as many soft shots that should have been routine that he misplayed or left soft rebounds.

Nowhere did I say that I expect him to lead a bad defensive team as a 20 year old. However, I've yet to see him show that he can steal wins throughout the season, which could be what will make or break a borderline playoff team that we might be fielding this upcoming season.

As a side note in repsonse to your side note....the post shot I referred to was when Fleury came out to play the puck, tried to play it around the goal to a d-man and shot it off of his own short side post. Later in the game, he played it from the low circle off the side of his own net.

As you said, you weren't at the game, so I'm not sure why you are so quick to critique, but I hope this clears it up for you.

That is why I added the aside about me not seeing the game, if he turned the puck over and they missed empty nets that is one thing, a shooter hitting the post on a normal shot is another. Sometimes a team hitting a lot of posts can mean the goalie is in their head a little and they are really trying to pick the corners. Sometimes a team can just be off on their shots.

What bothers me if the vagueness of the way people criticize Fluery. What does it really mean for him to steal wins throughout the season? In a lot of games this year if the team in front of him makes one more defensive play/scores one more goal he has 5-6 more wins. Sometimes he gave up some bad goals.

Contrary to what Bob Errey will tell you just because a late goal is scored does not mean its the goaltenders fault or that he comes up small in big situations. I watched a few times this year where Fluery was left out to dry by the defense late in a game only to hear Errey rant about how he needs to make the save.

Its just like the discussion on every rebound that he gives up. Just because there is a rebound does not mean the goalie was at fault but not many people can grasp that so they just blame the goalie for all of them.

I could go on and on but the point remains that Fluery is very young, even more so as far as goaltenders go, he is not a finished product. His puck handling needs to improve and just his overall game needs to be polished. He has all the tools to be a great goaltender, its up to him to realize that potential.

Vanbiesbrouck · Post by **Vanbiesbrouck** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:17 pm

Yes, when a player hits a post, the goalie may have the net covered. When a goalie shoots it off of his own post, in a playoff game, it's unexcusible and careless.

Fleury has quickness. I haven't seen any other of the tools yet. He makes great saves on shots that other goalies wouldn't get to. However, he lets in a soft goal just about every game.

As for rebounds, it's an obvious pattern that he kicks shots to the high slot on a regular basis instead of playing them into the corner. There is a lot of scrambling around the net that goes on that wouldn't if he would absorb more shots instead of always kicking them away. The difference between Fleury and Sabourin was most obvious even through only comparing games 3 and 4 in Hershey.

The general critique of Fleury is general because it's become a pattern. As for your question, a goalie stealing a game isn't something that can be quantified. If you've been around the game you don't need it explained to you. It's something the great goalies do and Fleury hasn't done it yet.

Hopefully his skills will improve. All the quickness in the world will get him nowhere if that's all he's got. I hope we don't pay him a contract we'll regret 3 years from now based on that alone, given that I've seen little development as of yet.

Goalie · Post by **Goalie** » Wed May 10, 2006 11:53 pm

Vanbiesbrouck wrote:Fleury has quickness. I haven't seen any other of the tools yet. He makes great saves on shots that other goalies wouldn't get to. However, he lets in a soft goal just about every game.

As for rebounds, it's an obvious pattern that he kicks shots to the high slot on a regular basis instead of playing them into the corner. There is a lot of scrambling around the net that goes on that wouldn't if he would absorb more shots instead of always kicking them away. The difference between Fleury and Sabourin was most obvious even through only comparing games 3 and 4 in Hershey.

The general critique of Fleury is general because it's become a pattern. As for your question, a goalie stealing a game isn't something that can be quantified. If you've been around the game you don't need it explained to you. It's something the great goalies do and Fleury hasn't done it yet.

Hopefully his skills will improve. All the quickness in the world will get him nowhere if that's all he's got. I hope we don't pay him a contract we'll regret 3 years from now based on that alone, given that I've seen little development as of yet.

A soft goal just about every game? I think we are watching different games.

He does need to learn to direct his rebounds better, its not always possible to absorb shots as you point out but he definetely needs to learn how to direct them into low traffic areas to help his defenseman.

So Fleury has not stolen a game yet? Or he has not done it consistently over a full season? How many goalies do you know that consistently steal games over a full season by the way? Quick look at Fleury's game log this season...

11/16 -- 45 saves versus Philly, 3-2 win
12/29 -- 44 saves versus NJ, 6-2 win (lopsided score, if you saw the game you know how good he was)
3/11 -- 38 saves versus NJ, 6-3 win
3/12 -- 22 saves versus Philly, 2-0 win

Those are four wins that jump off the page for a team that had a total of 22 for the year. That does not take into account nights where he makes 39 saves against St. Louis or stops 24/25 against Tampa and his teammates do not score. Or he loses a game 2-1 while stopping 30 versus the Rangers.

Saying he does not steal games is the type of critique I am talking about. Its vague and its pretty unfair to say it about a goalie who plays for the second worst team in the league in my opinion. Its one thing to say that a goalie on a very good team is along for the ride and is not out there bailing his teammates out when they have a bad game. Its totally different to say about a goalie who has to be very good just to have a chance to win night in and night out and when he has a bad game it will probably be a lopsided loss.

If you think all he has his quickness he then is the quickest goaltender who has ever lived because there is no way in the world anyone could play, let alone to the level he has shown so early, on quickness alone.

As I said above I think he has all the skills he will ever need, outside of puck handling, but needs to continue to work hard to improve and "polish" his game to get it to the best level possible.

Vanbiesbrouck · Post by **Vanbiesbrouck** » Thu May 11, 2006 12:10 am

If a bad team rides a goalie, that goalie is going to have a few good games. Seeing that many shots, it's just got to happen over the course of a season. He's been inconsistent, which is acceptable for a young goalie. However, it's got to improve at some point, and it better be soon if we're going to start talking big bucks for him. Whether he has one or two big games in not a big deal right now, but I hope he can turn it on pretty quick once we expect more from this team.

Your comments are correct. I do fee that quickness is, in fact, that only thing that Fleury has going for him right now. He doesn't play angles all that well yet, surely doesn't control rebounds, and has looked downright foolish trying to read breakaways/penalty shots.

He's still young, but I haven't seen development yet. I'm all for giving him the starting job next year, and surely hope beyond all hope that he becomes an elite goalie for the Pens. However, given the contract he's going to be expecting, he better earn it, and earn it soon. If not, I'm starting to think it might not be a bad idea to jump ship now before the rest of the league realizes that he might just be Craig Hillier in some yellow pads.

Goalie · Post by **Goalie** » Thu May 11, 2006 12:23 am

Vanbiesbrouck wrote:If a bad team rides a goalie, that goalie is going to have a few good games. Seeing that many shots, it's just got to happen over the course of a season. He's been inconsistent, which is acceptable for a young goalie. However, it's got to improve at some point, and it better be soon if we're going to start talking big bucks for him. Whether he has one or two big games in not a big deal right now, but I hope he can turn it on pretty quick once we expect more from this team.

Your comments are correct. I do fee that quickness is, in fact, that only thing that Fleury has going for him right now. He doesn't play angles all that well yet, surely doesn't control rebounds, and has looked downright foolish trying to read breakaways/penalty shots.

He's still young, but I haven't seen development yet. I'm all for giving him the starting job next year, and surely hope beyond all hope that he becomes an elite goalie for the Pens. However, given the contract he's going to be expecting, he better earn it, and earn it soon. If not, I'm starting to think it might not be a bad idea to jump ship now before the rest of the league realizes that he might just be Craig Hillier in some yellow pads.

So he does not steal games but when he does its only because he is on a bad team which gives up a lot of shots so the law of averages say he is due?

I am not trying to be smart about this but if you or anyone else thinks he is living on quickness alone there is a severe misunderstanding of the goaltending position. Lets not pretend he has never stopped a breakaway earlier, he did struggle in shootouts but he also has stopped his fair share of breakaways.

I also have to say that I really hope Penguins management decides not to "jump ship" here. Craig Hillier was an alcoholic who played 0 NHL games, Fleury looks like a hall of famer compared to him.

It would really not be fun to watch a great goalie develop and hit his prime in a different organization knowing that Penguins gave up on him as a 21 year old who played a grand total of 72 NHL games.

Vanbiesbrouck · Post by **Vanbiesbrouck** » Thu May 11, 2006 12:38 am

Goalie wrote:So he does not steal games but when he does its only because he is on a bad team which gives up a lot of shots so the law of averages say he is due?

True.

I am not trying to be smart about this but if you or anyone else thinks he is living on quickness alone there is a severe misunderstanding of the goaltending position.

I explained what I thought about his skills in detail, don't tell me what I or others misunderstand.

Lets not pretend he has never stopped a breakaway earlier, he did struggle in shootouts but he also has stopped his fair share of breakaways.

What's your point? What I said is that he looked poor. Averages say that NHL goalies will stop some breakaways. However, he makes the first move, is unsure about poke checks, and in general looked uncomfortable in that situation.

It would really not be fun to watch a great goalie develop and hit his prime in a different organization knowing that Penguins gave up on him as a 21 year old who played a grand total of 72 NHL games.

I agree. What I said was that I hope we don't give him money based on hype and then get stuck with him. As much as I would hate to see him develop elsewhere, I would also hate to see us have to dump other salary because of an overpaid, undeveloped goalie 3 years from now that can make amazing glove saves but stops less than 50% of shots from the point without rebouds.

Goalie · Post by **Goalie** » Thu May 11, 2006 12:50 am

Vanbiesbrouck wrote:
Goalie wrote:So he does not steal games but when he does its only because he is on a bad team which gives up a lot of shots so the law of averages say he is due?
True.

So he steals games or he does not?

Also you spent a good bit of time criticizing him for not stealing games but then you say that he can't steal them because he plays on a bad team and bad team goalies live off the law of averages?

We just have to agree to disagree. I by no means think Fleury has shown himself to be the next Patrick Roy but I think he is a lot better than you give him credit for. I do think he will be one of the best goaltenders in the league for a number of years but its not a guarantee by any stretch.

Vanbiesbrouck · Post by **Vanbiesbrouck** » Thu May 11, 2006 1:13 am

He does not steal games. He won several games on good preformances last season. He saw a ton of shots every game, so if he happened to be on, then statistically, he had a great game.

As I mentioned, people that watch the game don't need to quantify a goalie stealing a game by citing stats or scores. It's a big save in a close game at the right moment. It's a goalie being in a zone and having a calming influence on his team and slowing the play when necessary. It's stopping a breakaway in a run and gun game, to send your team breaking back on a 2 on 1. See: Martin Brodeur.

Fleury has not shown me that he can make the big save. Soft goals are deflating, even if you make an incredible save 30 seconds earlier. Fleury does not control the play in his zone or slow the game when necessary, and has been less than calming for a young defense corps. If he can't control rebounds, he better be ready for a run and gun type of game, yet has looked poor on breakaways and long rebound shots alike.

I give him little credit because he's done little to deserve it. In fairness, he hasn't played a full season as a starter and hasn't had a defense in front of him. The quickness he's shown deserves some optimism if he can develop some goaltending skill and sense to go along with it. I hope he's going to develop into one of the best goalies in the league, but I'm cautious about putting all our goaltending eggs into one 4x6 ft. basket.

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » Thu May 11, 2006 3:11 am

Vanbiesbrouck wrote:I give him little credit because he's done little to deserve it. In fairness, he hasn't played a full season as a starter and hasn't had a defense in front of him. The quickness he's shown deserves some optimism if he can develop some goaltending skill and sense to go along with it. I hope he's going to develop into one of the best goalies in the league, but I'm cautious about putting all our goaltending eggs into one 4x6 ft. basket.

I have a feeling that one Therrian training camp with an actual goalie coach will do Fleury a world of good. I think a goalie is like an NFL QB. Notice how long the Steelers went without a QB coach and how long they had a great QB? How many QBs would have been a lot better with a position coach? Fleury is the most important player on the team and you don't have a fulltime position coach for him?