Health care today is a completely different animal than health care 200 years ago, mainly because of insurance companies.dagny wrote:I meant to also quote your following sentence, which said they didn't even know what health care was. My reply was in reference to that.doublem wrote:
No, not 21st century medicine, a 300 million population, and 46 million people without coverage.
Regardless of your reply, don't tell us that it's not in the Constitution because they didn't even know what it was. Apparently, they did not look at is as an entitlement, either.
LGP Political Discussion Thread
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 15747
- Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:36 pm
- Location: Charlotte, NC
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
-
- NHL Healthy Scratch
- Posts: 10181
- Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:06 pm
- Location: 68 who?
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
THIS is what we, and our gov't, should actually be investing our time investigating, rather than the gov't rushing through, and making our decisions for us.MWB wrote: What have "people" done to solve this problem so far? I'm not saying that this current health care bill is the way to go, but what is a solution? Most people agree that there are changes that need to be made, but very few offer viable solutions.
-
- NHL Healthy Scratch
- Posts: 10181
- Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:06 pm
- Location: 68 who?
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
http://www.letsgopens.com/scripts/phpBB ... 95#p998795" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;MWB wrote:Health care today is a completely different animal than health care 200 years ago, mainly because of insurance companies.dagny wrote:I meant to also quote your following sentence, which said they didn't even know what health care was. My reply was in reference to that.doublem wrote:
No, not 21st century medicine, a 300 million population, and 46 million people without coverage.
Regardless of your reply, don't tell us that it's not in the Constitution because they didn't even know what it was. Apparently, they did not look at is as an entitlement, either.
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
-
- NHL Healthy Scratch
- Posts: 13430
- Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:05 pm
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
I would like to try an experiment where we had a completely free market and see how it would turn out. Since it has yet to be tried yet.dagny wrote:THIS is what we, and our gov't, should actually be investing our time investigating, rather than the gov't rushing through, and making our decisions for us.MWB wrote: What have "people" done to solve this problem so far? I'm not saying that this current health care bill is the way to go, but what is a solution? Most people agree that there are changes that need to be made, but very few offer viable solutions.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 15747
- Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:36 pm
- Location: Charlotte, NC
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
The problem is, the elimination of health care insurance companies seems to be an impossibility. How many jobs would it eliminate?
-
- NHL Healthy Scratch
- Posts: 13430
- Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:05 pm
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
I'm only half serious, I don't think it could ever be done.MWB wrote:The problem is, the elimination of health care insurance companies seems to be an impossibility. How many jobs would it eliminate?
-
- NHL Healthy Scratch
- Posts: 10884
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:50 am
- Location: ...
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Nor is it particularly "free market," since the freedom of a group of people to form a collective in order to pool resources and distribute risk is part of a free market. If insurance companies still functioned to pool resources and distribute risk, instead of what they do now, which is collecting resources and not paying out to cover risk, we probably wouldn't be having this debate.MWB wrote:The problem is, the elimination of health care insurance companies seems to be an impossibility.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 15747
- Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:36 pm
- Location: Charlotte, NC
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
My post was in response to dagny's link. I'm not trying to say that the elimination of insurance companies is free market.HomerPenguin wrote:Nor is it particularly "free market," since the freedom of a group of people to form a collective in order to pool resources and distribute risk is part of a free market. If insurance companies still functioned to pool resources and distribute risk, instead of what they do now, which is collecting resources and not paying out to cover risk, we probably wouldn't be having this debate.MWB wrote:The problem is, the elimination of health care insurance companies seems to be an impossibility.
-
- NHL Healthy Scratch
- Posts: 11465
- Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:30 am
- Location: At the pub
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Good idea! Also, it's nice to see you acknowledge that we haven't been operating under the evil free market you're always telling us is the cause of all of our problems.doublem wrote: I would like to try an experiment where we had a completely free market and see how it would turn out. Since it has yet to be tried yet.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 24467
- Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:53 am
- Location: NY
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Great Communicator via 1961....this liberal agenda has been going on for a long time.....
The Great Communicator via 1961....this liberal agenda has been going on for a long time.....
-
- NHL Healthy Scratch
- Posts: 10884
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:50 am
- Location: ...
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Which liberal agenda? The one that drastically increases the size of government, mushrooms deficits and debts, engages in foreign military excursions, and expands massive and destructive programs that do nothing but waste money and criminalize huge numbers of citizens for things that ought not be crimes while taking a supposedly free nation in the direction of becoming a police state?KG wrote:
The Great Communicator via 1961....this liberal agenda has been going on for a long time.....
Yeah, that Reagan--what a dirty lib.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory12.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
-
- NHL Healthy Scratch
- Posts: 11465
- Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:30 am
- Location: At the pub
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
HomerPenguin wrote:Which liberal agenda? The one that drastically increases the size of government, mushrooms deficits and debts, engages in foreign military excursions, and expands massive and destructive programs that do nothing but waste money and criminalize huge numbers of citizens for things that ought not be crimes while taking a supposedly free nation in the direction of becoming a police state?KG wrote:
The Great Communicator via 1961....this liberal agenda has been going on for a long time.....
Yeah, that Reagan--what a dirty lib.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory12.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
![Thumbs Up :thumb:](./images/smilies/thumbup.gif)
![Thumbs Up :thumb:](./images/smilies/thumbup.gif)
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 22691
- Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:57 pm
- Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Ron I think we agree. I haven't had time to read through the entire thread but premium health care insurance is a privilege, not a right.Ron` wrote:ExPat, you are a businessman. We both agree health care has to be reformed. Is a national health care plan business wise considering that it will be ultimately be passed down to businesses and the individual taxpayer? Can money be saved by just purely doing this? I am of the opinion that it will continue to spiral and the problems associated with it will not be addressed. Let alone we will magically just provide it for everyone at a savings...
In American society today, no one is turned away for basic healthcare. If you have a broken arm or a heart attack the emergency room will treat/admit you. The "left" seems to love the phrase "x number of Americans go without health care" when in reality it's "x number of Americans are without Healthcare Insurance"
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 22691
- Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:57 pm
- Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
"I know you are but what am I?"HomerPenguin wrote:Which liberal agenda? The one that drastically increases the size of government, mushrooms deficits and debts, engages in foreign military excursions, and expands massive and destructive programs that do nothing but waste money and criminalize huge numbers of citizens for things that ought not be crimes while taking a supposedly free nation in the direction of becoming a police state?KG wrote:
The Great Communicator via 1961....this liberal agenda has been going on for a long time.....
Yeah, that Reagan--what a dirty lib.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/gregory/gregory12.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
Aren't you the same guy who bristles every time the Obama administration is compared to the Carter administration?
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 22691
- Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 2:57 pm
- Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Huh? I think the cost of modern technology has more to do with it than the existence of Insurance companies.MWB wrote:Health care today is a completely different animal than health care 200 years ago, mainly because of insurance companies.dagny wrote:I meant to also quote your following sentence, which said they didn't even know what health care was. My reply was in reference to that.doublem wrote:
No, not 21st century medicine, a 300 million population, and 46 million people without coverage.
Regardless of your reply, don't tell us that it's not in the Constitution because they didn't even know what it was. Apparently, they did not look at is as an entitlement, either.
200 years ago there wasn't "Open Heart Surgery" nor was there an expectation that medical science could extend the life of a person through heroic measures.
-
- NHL Third Liner
- Posts: 28740
- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:00 pm
- Location: From Hockey Siberia to Hockey Hell
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
I agree 100% with you guys.ExPatriatePen wrote:Ron I think we agree. I haven't had time to read through the entire thread but premium health care insurance is a privilege, not a right.Ron` wrote:ExPat, you are a businessman. We both agree health care has to be reformed. Is a national health care plan business wise considering that it will be ultimately be passed down to businesses and the individual taxpayer? Can money be saved by just purely doing this? I am of the opinion that it will continue to spiral and the problems associated with it will not be addressed. Let alone we will magically just provide it for everyone at a savings...
In American society today, no one is turned away for basic healthcare. If you have a broken arm or a heart attack the emergency room will treat/admit you. The "left" seems to love the phrase "x number of Americans go without health care" when in reality it's "x number of Americans are without Healthcare Insurance"
If everyone is entitled to health insurance, why do we even need an insurance system in place?
-
- NHL Healthy Scratch
- Posts: 12103
- Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:23 pm
- Location: tool shed
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Rather than everyone yelling at each other, that is the question that should be asked at all these town hall meetings (maybe it has, I've been too busy reading this thread...)bhaw wrote:
If everyone is entitled to health insurance, why do we even need an insurance system in place?
-
- NHL Healthy Scratch
- Posts: 10884
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:50 am
- Location: ...
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
What does the ER give you for, say, lung cancer? Or is treatment for cancer a privilege?ExPatriatePen wrote:In American society today, no one is turned away for basic healthcare. If you have a broken arm or a heart attack the emergency room will treat/admit you.
-
- NHL Third Liner
- Posts: 28740
- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:00 pm
- Location: From Hockey Siberia to Hockey Hell
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
frankly, yes.HomerPenguin wrote:What does the ER give you for, say, lung cancer? Or is treatment for cancer a privilege?ExPatriatePen wrote:In American society today, no one is turned away for basic healthcare. If you have a broken arm or a heart attack the emergency room will treat/admit you.
-
- NHL Healthy Scratch
- Posts: 10884
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:50 am
- Location: ...
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
I applaud you for your honesty.bhaw wrote:frankly, yes.HomerPenguin wrote:What does the ER give you for, say, lung cancer? Or is treatment for cancer a privilege?ExPatriatePen wrote:In American society today, no one is turned away for basic healthcare. If you have a broken arm or a heart attack the emergency room will treat/admit you.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 15747
- Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:36 pm
- Location: Charlotte, NC
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
The bill for my last physical was $496. The insurance company agreed to pay $275 of that. The extra cost wasn't passed on to me or anyone else, so it would seem that the doctor charges an amount knowing full well that insurance will only agree to pay a fraction of that amount. BTW, I didn't have open heart surgery or any other amazing procedure during this exam.ExPatriatePen wrote:Huh? I think the cost of modern technology has more to do with it than the existence of Insurance companies.MWB wrote: Health care today is a completely different animal than health care 200 years ago, mainly because of insurance companies.
200 years ago there wasn't "Open Heart Surgery" nor was there an expectation that medical science could extend the life of a person through heroic measures.
Every medical bill I get looks like this. Doctor charges a certain amount. Insurance company agree to pay part of it. Done deal. So is the initial bill presented by the doctor a fair cost or is what the insurance company paid fair? There certainly is a discrepancy somewhere.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 24467
- Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:53 am
- Location: NY
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
It's all a scam...The doctors no how much they can charge without the insurance company opening their eyes, and the insurance company knows they will only pay to a certain point, and both the doctor and the insurance company know that the customer isn't going to pay the differenceMWB wrote:The bill for my last physical was $496. The insurance company agreed to pay $275 of that. The extra cost wasn't passed on to me or anyone else, so it would seem that the doctor charges an amount knowing full well that insurance will only agree to pay a fraction of that amount. BTW, I didn't have open heart surgery or any other amazing procedure during this exam.ExPatriatePen wrote:Huh? I think the cost of modern technology has more to do with it than the existence of Insurance companies.MWB wrote: Health care today is a completely different animal than health care 200 years ago, mainly because of insurance companies.
200 years ago there wasn't "Open Heart Surgery" nor was there an expectation that medical science could extend the life of a person through heroic measures.
Every medical bill I get looks like this. Doctor charges a certain amount. Insurance company agree to pay part of it. Done deal. So is the initial bill presented by the doctor a fair cost or is what the insurance company paid fair? There certainly is a discrepancy somewhere.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
-
- NHL Healthy Scratch
- Posts: 10884
- Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:50 am
- Location: ...
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Am I? I thought I was the guy who couldn't believe people still have PTSD over a presidency that ended 30 years ago.ExPatriatePen wrote:Aren't you the same guy who bristles every time the Obama administration is compared to the Carter administration?
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 15747
- Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 12:36 pm
- Location: Charlotte, NC
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Exactly. So if there weren't insurance companies my guess is the overall cost structure of health care would look dramatically different.KG wrote:
It's all a scam...The doctors no how much they can charge without the insurance company opening their eyes, and the insurance company knows they will only pay to a certain point, and both the doctor and the insurance company know that the customer isn't going to pay the difference
-
- ECHL'er
- Posts: 1635
- Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:58 pm
Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
The problem really is that we have too much insurance, not too little. I would be willing to bet that if the US abolished employer coverage, and we all had to purchase our own insurance directly from the insurer (like any other insurance policy), we would see competition increase and medical costs plummet. There would be more variety in terms of available policies as well.
BTW, when Obama talks about people having the ability to stay on whatever coverage they want under his plan, I think a lot of folks don't realize that, in most cases, it's our employers who actually decide what coverage we have. If employers are strongly encouraged to move away from the private option, most of us really won't have a choice.
BTW, when Obama talks about people having the ability to stay on whatever coverage they want under his plan, I think a lot of folks don't realize that, in most cases, it's our employers who actually decide what coverage we have. If employers are strongly encouraged to move away from the private option, most of us really won't have a choice.