Official GDT: Pens vs Wild 12/18/23

[largegarlic]

I said it in a previous thread and I'll say it in this one as well: not a pretty win, and not a real reason to get hopes up for the playoffs, but...a functioning power play was the difference in this game. We won 4-3 with two power play goals. A few weeks ago we lose this game 3-2, and I can't help but think what the team's record would be if we didn't go on that 0-37 or whatever stretch.

I didn't see the game last night, but I posted something similar after the Montreal game. This isn't a great team, but if their PP can click at 25-30%, they should pick up enough points against mediocre and bad teams to get into the playoffs. They probably would be in a playoff spot right now if they hadn't had that ridiculous PP drought.

[Daniel]

I said it in a previous thread and I'll say it in this one as well: not a pretty win, and not a real reason to get hopes up for the playoffs, but...a functioning power play was the difference in this game. We won 4-3 with two power play goals. A few weeks ago we lose this game 3-2, and I can't help but think what the team's record would be if we didn't go on that 0-37 or whatever stretch.

I didn't see the game last night, but I posted something similar after the Montreal game. This isn't a great team, but if their PP can click at 25-30%, they should pick up enough points against mediocre and bad teams to get into the playoffs. They probably would be in a playoff spot right now if they hadn't had that ridiculous PP drought.

They tend to mostly beat teams worse than them and most lose to teams better than them. In the end that's just the definition of mediocre, which is where this team will be until they realize they're too old and too badly coached to be anything else.

[Wyopen]

Exactly Daniel, I wouldn’t get too hyperventilated over these recent victories or recent surge in PP goals. They beat average teams currently out of the playoffs, and just barely at that. The Toronto game should put this in perspective. Let’s see how they do against a real team like Carolina.

[Daniel]

Exactly Daniel, I wouldn’t get too hyperventilated over these recent victories or recent surge in PP goals. They beat average teams currently out of the playoffs, and just barely at that. The Toronto game should put this in perspective. Let’s see how they do against a real team like Carolina.

I think the best way to finish the Sid era is with a top 5 pick, draft a stud LW to replace Jake, new coach and see what 2024-25 brings.

[Wyopen]

Exactly Daniel, I wouldn’t get too hyperventilated over these recent victories or recent surge in PP goals. They beat average teams currently out of the playoffs, and just barely at that. The Toronto game should put this in perspective. Let’s see how they do against a real team like Carolina.

I think the best way to finish the Sid era is with a top 5 pick, draft a stud LW to replace Jake, new coach and see what 2024-25 brings.

Maybe management should make this team so bad, that the core would welcome a trade to a contender. We need draft picks and legit prospects

[Daniel]

Exactly Daniel, I wouldn’t get too hyperventilated over these recent victories or recent surge in PP goals. They beat average teams currently out of the playoffs, and just barely at that. The Toronto game should put this in perspective. Let’s see how they do against a real team like Carolina.

I think the best way to finish the Sid era is with a top 5 pick, draft a stud LW to replace Jake, new coach and see what 2024-25 brings.

Maybe management should make this team so bad, that the core would welcome a trade to a contender. We need draft picks and legit prospects

I like the idea of the trio retiring as Penguins, but they'll need to allow for a youth movement. The problem has usually been the bottom six and Sullivan's reluctance to trust young players (where have we heard this before?).

As much as teams overpay at the deadline, the Penguins have a few assets that should bring back to young assets. A team will overpay for a guy like Jake because of his playoff success, same with Rust and Smith. Not sure what the return would, but Jake should get a 1st and probably 1-2 other players and Rust/Smith should be 1-2 assets each.

[Wyopen]

There is no way they’ll trade Jake, no way. Sid would have a conniption. He’ll get 6-8yrs at 7-8M per, plus NTC. But I do agree it’s time to let some of these players go.

[KG]

I don't see how trading Jake speeds up any type of rebuild to be honest. If we trade Jake, he's going to a contender. That contender will trade their first round pick, say 25th overall. You'll also get a medium level prospect and roster player to net out salaries. I don't think a Jake return would be overwhelming to be honest.

They should just sign him and build a more balanced team around them. They should bring in more offense up and down the lineup. The fact Sullivan wants to deploy 2 scoring lines and 2 non-scoring lines is flawed when Geno is 37 and we are an injury away of having Eller (3 goals in 30 games) as our 2C.

I would like to see them bring in a new 2C in the off-season and move Geno to wing.

[Wyopen]

I don't see how trading Jake speeds up any type of rebuild to be honest. If we trade Jake, he's going to a contender. That contender will trade their first round pick, say 25th overall. You'll also get a medium level prospect and roster player to net out salaries. I don't think a Jake return would be overwhelming to be honest.

They should just sign him and build a more balanced team around them. They should bring in more offense up and down the lineup. The fact Sullivan wants to deploy 2 scoring lines and 2 non-scoring lines is flawed when Geno is 37 and we are an injury away of having Eller (3 goals in 30 games) as our 2C.

I would like to see them bring in a new 2C in the off-season and move Geno to wing.

My major issue is the length, amount, NTC of his next contract. Sid, Geno, Letang will be long gone. He can’t carry the team, plus he’s already 29. How are they going to build a more balanced team, with what no prospects?

[FLPensFan]

I don't see how trading Jake speeds up any type of rebuild to be honest. If we trade Jake, he's going to a contender. That contender will trade their first round pick, say 25th overall. You'll also get a medium level prospect and roster player to net out salaries. I don't think a Jake return would be overwhelming to be honest.

They should just sign him and build a more balanced team around them. They should bring in more offense up and down the lineup. The fact Sullivan wants to deploy 2 scoring lines and 2 non-scoring lines is flawed when Geno is 37 and we are an injury away of having Eller (3 goals in 30 games) as our 2C.

I would like to see them bring in a new 2C in the off-season and move Geno to wing.

I think Arizona is the dark horse. They are doing much better than expected earlier than expected, and they may slowly come out of rebuild mode already yet, they still have a pirates hoard of draft picks over the next 3 years (all of their 1sts, 10 2nds, and 7 3rds).

Jake to ARZ for Jack McBain, a 2025 1st, and a 2024 2nd. They aren't likely going to move Crouse and think that helps them lock in a playoff spot. McBain turns 24 in January. He's a 3rd line type, but he hits, he fights, and he can put up 3rd line level points. But, there's still room for him to grow. Gamble and see if he can increase his value to Crouse's level by playing alongside Sid or Geno for a year or two. The 2025 1st would replace the one we ship out to Arizona, and we pick up an extra 2nd this year. Arizona has the cap space to sign Jake long term, and he'd be a big help alongside Schmaltz or Bjugstad. Longshot trade with Arizona...Jake for Logan Cooley straight up.

[Pitts]

Spoiler:

I don't see how trading Jake speeds up any type of rebuild to be honest. If we trade Jake, he's going to a contender. That contender will trade their first round pick, say 25th overall. You'll also get a medium level prospect and roster player to net out salaries. I don't think a Jake return would be overwhelming to be honest.

They should just sign him and build a more balanced team around them. They should bring in more offense up and down the lineup. The fact Sullivan wants to deploy 2 scoring lines and 2 non-scoring lines is flawed when Geno is 37 and we are an injury away of having Eller (3 goals in 30 games) as our 2C.

I would like to see them bring in a new 2C in the off-season and move Geno to wing.

I think Arizona is the dark horse. They are doing much better than expected earlier than expected, and they may slowly come out of rebuild mode already yet, they still have a pirates hoard of draft picks over the next 3 years (all of their 1sts, 10 2nds, and 7 3rds).

Jake to ARZ for Jack McBain, a 2025 1st, and a 2024 2nd. They aren't likely going to move Crouse and think that helps them lock in a playoff spot. McBain turns 24 in January. He's a 3rd line type, but he hits, he fights, and he can put up 3rd line level points. But, there's still room for him to grow. Gamble and see if he can increase his value to Crouse's level by playing alongside Sid or Geno for a year or two. The 2025 1st would replace the one we ship out to Arizona, and we pick up an extra 2nd this year. Arizona has the cap space to sign Jake long term, and he'd be a big help alongside Schmaltz or Bjugstad. Longshot trade with Arizona

...Jake for Logan Cooley straight up.

Seriously, that would be very cool. Cooley with Yager in few seasons would be alright I think.

[Daniel]

I don't see how trading Jake speeds up any type of rebuild to be honest. If we trade Jake, he's going to a contender. That contender will trade their first round pick, say 25th overall. You'll also get a medium level prospect and roster player to net out salaries. I don't think a Jake return would be overwhelming to be honest.

They should just sign him and build a more balanced team around them. They should bring in more offense up and down the lineup. The fact Sullivan wants to deploy 2 scoring lines and 2 non-scoring lines is flawed when Geno is 37 and we are an injury away of having Eller (3 goals in 30 games) as our 2C.

I would like to see them bring in a new 2C in the off-season and move Geno to wing.

I think the key to a return would be an 19-22 top end prospect plus a 1st and another asset, if Dubas can get a bidding war for him of course. For starters, let’s look at the Red Wings and Devils. The Red Wings really need to make the playoffs soon and the Devils are underachieving. Both are supposed to have a strong prospect pool while at the same time have a young roster.

I think 3 assets from either team would help quite a bit. Maybe a higher ranked prospect and 2nd round pick?

Right now it’s all theory, but I think trading Jake at the deadline would at the very least give him cap space and any prospect they get is likely going to be top 2-3 in the system.

[FLPensFan]

I don't see how trading Jake speeds up any type of rebuild to be honest. If we trade Jake, he's going to a contender. That contender will trade their first round pick, say 25th overall. You'll also get a medium level prospect and roster player to net out salaries. I don't think a Jake return would be overwhelming to be honest.

They should just sign him and build a more balanced team around them. They should bring in more offense up and down the lineup. The fact Sullivan wants to deploy 2 scoring lines and 2 non-scoring lines is flawed when Geno is 37 and we are an injury away of having Eller (3 goals in 30 games) as our 2C.

I would like to see them bring in a new 2C in the off-season and move Geno to wing.

I think the key to a return would be an 19-22 top end prospect plus a 1st and another asset, if Dubas can get a bidding war for him of course. For starters, let’s look at the Red Wings and Devils. The Red Wings really need to make the playoffs soon and the Devils are underachieving. Both are supposed to have a strong prospect pool while at the same time have a young roster.

I think 3 assets from either team would help quite a bit. Maybe a higher ranked prospect and 2nd round pick?

Right now it’s all theory, but I think trading Jake at the deadline would at the very least give him cap space and any prospect they get is likely going to be top 2-3 in the system.

For Detroit, you'd probably have to look at Lucas Raymond (21yo) who has underachieved so far as a 4th overall pick. In his 3rd season, 23 goals and 57 points was his top end in his rookie season. Detroit would have to go Raymond, 2025 1st, and something else. But there's likely not a lot to choose from here.

NJ has a lot more to offer, with better, younger picks. Dawson Mercier, Alexander Holtz, Simon Nemec. If you could get Mercier/Holtz plus a 1st, I'd strongly consider that.

[Antonio]

Jake is on pace for 90 plus points, I would bet he should net a 1st a 2nd and a quality young player. If that was on offer, I'd move him in a heartbeat. They won't though, in any situation regardless of what gets offered, because this **** organization thinks they are Stanley cup competitors and aren't ever going to need to rebuild.

[Wyopen]

Jake is on pace for 90 plus points, I would bet he should net a 1st a 2nd and a quality young player. If that was on offer, I'd move him in a heartbeat. They won't though, in any situation regardless of what gets offered, because this **** organization thinks they are Stanley cup competitors and aren't ever going to need to rebuild.

My thoughts exactly! I’ve previously stated Guentzel will sign an 8 yr NTC for 8M/yr. The core gets want the core wants.

[Take the Body Shoot the Puck]

Is there anything preventing the Penguins from trading Jake to a contender at the deadline, and then resigning him as a UFA in the offseason? Seems like that'd be a win-win. Have a conversation with him, let him know that he's wanted here, agree to a new deal in principle, and then if he'd like to try for a cup this year, ask him who his preferred teams would be, work out a deal that includes at least a 1st and a prospect, let him go, and then sign him as a UFA to the deal that was discussed with him previously. This way we get Jake back for next year on a new deal, as well as a 1st and young player.

[Daniel]

Is there anything preventing the Penguins from trading Jake to a contender at the deadline, and then resigning him as a UFA in the offseason? Seems like that'd be a win-win. Have a conversation with him, let him know that he's wanted here, agree to a new deal in principle, and then if he'd like to try for a cup this year, ask him who his preferred teams would be, work out a deal that includes at least a 1st and a prospect, let him go, and then sign him as a UFA to the deal that was discussed with him previously. This way we get Jake back for next year on a new deal, as well as a 1st and young player.

They can do that, but question is why would they? Jake isn't someone you build around, will want way more money than this franchise can fit under the cap without sacrificing elsewhere, the contract will be several years into a rebuild, and will likely have a NMC of some kind.

[ahawk9]

Agree Daniel! Recchi did that one year when he waived his NTC to go to Carolina. He won the Cup then re-signed with Pens in the offseason. They got Niklas Nordgren, Krys Kolanos and a second-round pick in the 2007 draft (Kevin Marshall), so let's not delve into how those assets worked out for them, but there is precedent for a deadline trade/offseason re-signing. That would be ideal for everyone because Jake can get a chance at a Cup this year, and get his long-term deal in Pittsburgh (if that's what he wants), the core gets what it wants, and they all get some assets.

[Pitts]

Is there anything preventing the Penguins from trading Jake to a contender at the deadline, and then resigning him as a UFA in the offseason? Seems like that'd be a win-win. Have a conversation with him, let him know that he's wanted here, agree to a new deal in principle, and then if he'd like to try for a cup this year, ask him who his preferred teams would be, work out a deal that includes at least a 1st and a prospect, let him go, and then sign him as a UFA to the deal that was discussed with him previously. This way we get Jake back for next year on a new deal, as well as a 1st and young player.

They can do that, but question is why would they? Jake isn't someone you build around, will want way more money than this franchise can fit under the cap without sacrificing elsewhere, the contract will be several years into a rebuild, and will likely have a NMC of some kind.

Plus, I think any movement of Jake, the other team would want a contract guarantee. Without that, I think his value will be a lot less.

And to add, as fans, we really need to give up this player attachment. You can't get better without letting go. The only player I care to see retire here is Sid.

[Coffey Break]

Maybe I'm mis-remembering but wasn't there a stipulation in place to disallow the idea of a player being traded and then re-signing with the old team immediately in the off-season. I thought there was something like that during the whole Hagelin situation where we was traded during the season - and even though there was mutual interest to bring him back to the Pens in the subsequent offseason, the Pens were not allowed to (or that a certain # of years must pass before that player can be signed back)?

[Daniel]

Maybe I'm mis-remembering but wasn't there a stipulation in place to disallow the idea of a player being traded and then re-signing with the old team immediately in the off-season. I thought there was something like that during the whole Hagelin situation where we was traded during the season - and even though there was mutual interest to bring him back to the Pens in the subsequent offseason, the Pens were not allowed to (or that a certain # of years must pass before that player can be signed back)?

I think that was retention related.

[FLPensFan]

Maybe I'm mis-remembering but wasn't there a stipulation in place to disallow the idea of a player being traded and then re-signing with the old team immediately in the off-season. I thought there was something like that during the whole Hagelin situation where we was traded during the season - and even though there was mutual interest to bring him back to the Pens in the subsequent offseason, the Pens were not allowed to (or that a certain # of years must pass before that player can be signed back)?

I think that was retention related.

It was. Penguins were retaining salary, so Penguins couldn't bring him back because that would be considered cap circumvention.

[Daniel]

Maybe I'm mis-remembering but wasn't there a stipulation in place to disallow the idea of a player being traded and then re-signing with the old team immediately in the off-season. I thought there was something like that during the whole Hagelin situation where we was traded during the season - and even though there was mutual interest to bring him back to the Pens in the subsequent offseason, the Pens were not allowed to (or that a certain # of years must pass before that player can be signed back)?

I think that was retention related.

It was. Penguins were retaining salary, so Penguins couldn't bring him back because that would be considered cap circumvention.

Which is ironic considering the shenanigans Washington did with Brooks Orpik and what Colorado? Can't remember the exact details, but buyout and sign with the Avs cheap, then traded back to Washington for cheap? Something like that.

[Coffey Break]

Maybe I'm mis-remembering but wasn't there a stipulation in place to disallow the idea of a player being traded and then re-signing with the old team immediately in the off-season. I thought there was something like that during the whole Hagelin situation where we was traded during the season - and even though there was mutual interest to bring him back to the Pens in the subsequent offseason, the Pens were not allowed to (or that a certain # of years must pass before that player can be signed back)?

I think that was retention related.

It was. Penguins were retaining salary, so Penguins couldn't bring him back because that would be considered cap circumvention.

Ah that's right - thank you both!