LGP Political Discussion Thread

[Ron`]

I'm just saying that in America a person should not be given a death sentence from a potentially treatable disease because they don't have the money to pay for health insurance. I don't pretend to know the answers, but there should be a safety net if we're truly supposed to be the "greatest country in the world".

"In America"???? Why not Ethiopia or Malaysia or Pakistan? Are American lives more important than lives elsewhere? As long as you're advocating spending other peoples money, why not save the entire planet?

Which is exactly the business we should be getting out of, well said...

[Ron`]

"In America"???? Why not Ethiopia or Malaysia or Pakistan? Are American lives more important than lives elsewhere? As long as you're advocating spending other peoples money, why not save the entire planet?

Hey, let everyone without insurance die. Fine by me. But then don't give me some BS about the USA being the best place in the world to live when other (OMG, socialized) countries don't let thousands of people die a year of treatable illnesses because they don't have health insurance. I know my thinking that we shouldn't let people die like dogs makes me a pinko commie liberal but I think if we want to prop our country up as better than all of the other countries in the world then we should at least have the same safeguards in place that much of the rest of the civilized world already have.

WE DO, it's called "law" which entitles someone without insurance to show up at a hospital room and recieve care.... Is it efficient, no. Does it cost the rest that have insurance and drive the premiums, yes. There are plenty of safety nets already in the system. The scale of the nets is different from state to state though.

Obama attended a town hall meeting in of all places NH without any discenting questions, demonstrations etc. That to me is completely fishy considering NH's political clime. Staged soapboxing imo at it's best.

[MWB]

The US has the highest standard of living in the world.

Where do you get your numbers?

I just threw that out there, and it turns out I was wrong. We are second in average annual income behind Switzerland.

Average annual income and standard of living aren't the same thing. Where do the countries rank in cost of living, it you want to address annual income?

[Ron`]

The US has the highest standard of living in the world.

Where do you get your numbers?

I just threw that out there, and it turns out I was wrong. We are second in average annual income behind Switzerland.

Because of all the untaxed dollars funneled through it's banking system, just maybe....

[MWB]

WE DO, it's called "law" which entitles someone without insurance to show up at a hospital room and recieve care.... Is it efficient, no. Does it cost the rest that have insurance and drive the premiums, yes. There are plenty of safety nets already in the system. The scale of the nets is different from state to state though.

I think the point is that you can't show up at a hospital room with cancer or some comparable long-lasting disease and receive care for that.

[Ron`]

Here's where we should be focusing our attentions, but instead we are being distracted by complete foolishness. By taking on an even bigger deficit problem..... Pay attention to the recovery tables, because there is no way we can pay for what has already been enacted currently, let alone more until it occurs.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32374533/ns ... he_economy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a power move to enact every thing they can while they control everything. The public or the future be danged. If they really wanted this, it should have come first on their list. The list is growing shorter and the time to strike is also. In every crisis there is oppurtunity.

Another analogy is lost your house, lost your job, trade in that clunker and buy a new car. Who do you think is taking advantage of this program? Is it helping the average american? Is it helping the average auto worker? NO, it's getting excess inventory off the lots. The max rebate of 4500 has already been proven to cost 6000 with government overhead. Another bill of goods sold.

[Ron`]

This country has slowly erroded the family and friend network that carried it through the last depression. People took care of each other as much as they could to get through it. Now that is gone, everyone expects the government to get them through it. Including businesses.

Many never were contributing before adversity developed. Totally crazy idea since the government skims the profits of every money maker or money making enterprise to finance the safety nets. Or now as in this case runs up incredible debt to sustain or increase them... This is madness and cannot turn out well going forward.

[Ron`]

WE DO, it's called "law" which entitles someone without insurance to show up at a hospital room and recieve care.... Is it efficient, no. Does it cost the rest that have insurance and drive the premiums, yes. There are plenty of safety nets already in the system. The scale of the nets is different from state to state though.

I think the point is that you can't show up at a hospital room with cancer or some comparable long-lasting disease and receive care for that.

I'm sorry, but that has always been true. If you didn't have a good job that provided that type of treatment via it's plan .... The problem is that those jobs are long gone and the plans that supported that in the private sector have become unsustainable due to paying the ride for those that don't and incredulous administrative inefficiencies. This plan is not fixing that problem, just creating another, following the same dead end road.

[doublem]

This country has slowly erroded the family and friend network that carried it through the last depression. People took care of each other as much as they could to get through it. Now that is gone, everyone expects the government to get them through it. Many never were contributing before adversity developed. Including businesses. Totally crazy idea since the government skims the profits of every money maker or money making enterprise to finance the safety nets. Or now as in this case runs up incredible debt to sustain or increase them... This is madness and cannot turn out well going forward.

What? Should we go back to volunteerism like Hebert Hoover wanted? During the depression unemployment was at about 25%, people were living in cardboard shacks, and were waiting in bread lines. Do you really want to go back to that time?People worked there entire life for very little pay, and died early. I don't know why you have some nostalgic sentiment for that time period becasue it wasn't that great, things didn't start to improve until after years of New Deal Policies were put in place, and WW2 started. American became the most wealthy nation on the earth, and standard of living increased dramatically.

[doublem]

I'm sorry, but that has always been true. If you didn't have a good job that provided that type of treatment via it's plan .

So, then you die? Health insurance has increased over 119% of the last decade, people with "good jobs" are being pushed out of affording them.

[MWB]

WE DO, it's called "law" which entitles someone without insurance to show up at a hospital room and recieve care.... Is it efficient, no. Does it cost the rest that have insurance and drive the premiums, yes. There are plenty of safety nets already in the system. The scale of the nets is different from state to state though.

I think the point is that you can't show up at a hospital room with cancer or some comparable long-lasting disease and receive care for that.

I'm sorry, but that has always been true. If you didn't have a good job that provided that type of treatment via it's plan .... The problem is that those jobs are long gone and the plans that supported that in the private sector have become unsustainable due to paying the ride for those that don't and incredulous administrative inefficiencies. This plan is not fixing that problem, just creating another, following the same dead end road.

I never said that wasn't always true. I believe Hockeynut's point was that he thinks people should be able to be treated for treatable diseases regardless of income. And your response seemed to be that people can go get that care by showing up at a hospital room. Just because it's something that doesn't or hasn't ever happened doesn't mean it's not something to strive for. Overhauling of the health care system has to start somewhere. I'm not saying this bill is a place to start, but there has to be some starting point.

[doublem]

In this country people are always afraid of the invisible man.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/ ... l_of_care/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ron`]

This country has slowly erroded the family and friend network that carried it through the last depression. People took care of each other as much as they could to get through it. Now that is gone, everyone expects the government to get them through it. Many never were contributing before adversity developed. Including businesses. Totally crazy idea since the government skims the profits of every money maker or money making enterprise to finance the safety nets. Or now as in this case runs up incredible debt to sustain or increase them... This is madness and cannot turn out well going forward.

What? Should we go back to volunteerism like Hebert Hoover wanted? During the depression unemployment was at about 25%, people were living in cardboard shacks, and were waiting in bread lines. Do you really want to go back to that time?People worked there entire life for very little pay, and died early. I don't know why you have some nostalgic sentiment for that time period becasue it wasn't that great, things didn't start to improve until after years of New Deal Policies were put in place, and WW2 started. American became the most wealthy nation on the earth, and standard of living increased dramatically.

I am trying to reflect on why that failed and what really carried this country through the depression. You deserve what you wish for. You have well documented your background and achievements here. Along with the idiological dreams you believe in. To date you have not proven to me that you understood what the common man deals with let alone worldly issues. This isn't a grad school thesis on how we can save the world. It's finance 101 and this administration is continuing a path of failure.

The last world war was only turned by the industrial base of this country and ironically Russia's. Both nations could and did outproduce the German industrial base despite their superior technology. Through pure production they exceeded German technological superiority. Along with the personal commitment and sacrifice of many brave men. So throwing that out there is incredulous.

That industrial base is long gone, yet we invest in bailing out and expanding social nets. I hope we never see that again, but it's coming. Congratulations you are the first and only person on my ignore list.

[Geezer]

The US has the highest standard of living in the world.

Where do you get your numbers?

Please enlighten us on all the countries with higher standards of living.

[Geezer]

This country has slowly erroded the family and friend network that carried it through the last depression. People took care of each other as much as they could to get through it. Now that is gone, everyone expects the government to get them through it. Many never were contributing before adversity developed. Including businesses. Totally crazy idea since the government skims the profits of every money maker or money making enterprise to finance the safety nets. Or now as in this case runs up incredible debt to sustain or increase them... This is madness and cannot turn out well going forward.

What? Should we go back to volunteerism like Hebert Hoover wanted? During the depression unemployment was at about 25%, people were living in cardboard shacks, and were waiting in bread lines. Do you really want to go back to that time?People worked there entire life for very little pay, and died early. I don't know why you have some nostalgic sentiment for that time period becasue it wasn't that great, things didn't start to improve until after years of New Deal Policies were put in place, and WW2 started. American became the most wealthy nation on the earth, and standard of living increased dramatically.

The depression ended when the U.S. entered WWII. The country was still in the Great Depression until then despite the New Deal.

[Ron`]

I think the point is that you can't show up at a hospital room with cancer or some comparable long-lasting disease and receive care for that.

I'm sorry, but that has always been true. If you didn't have a good job that provided that type of treatment via it's plan .... The problem is that those jobs are long gone and the plans that supported that in the private sector have become unsustainable due to paying the ride for those that don't and incredulous administrative inefficiencies. This plan is not fixing that problem, just creating another, following the same dead end road.

I never said that wasn't always true. I believe Hockeynut's point was that he thinks people should be able to be treated for treatable diseases regardless of income. And your response seemed to be that people can go get that care by showing up at a hospital room. Just because it's something that doesn't or hasn't ever happened doesn't mean it's not something to strive for. Overhauling of the health care system has to start somewhere. I'm not saying this bill is a place to start, but there has to be some starting point.

We need a starting point I agree, but this is a gateway to something that will be completely controlled by government agencies via regulation decree. Once passed it will no longer be affected by elected legislation as to where and how it is operated. That is what bothers me, pure and simple.

[doublem]

The US has the highest standard of living in the world.

Where do you get your numbers?

Please enlighten us on all the countries with higher standards of living.

Highest life expectancy or overall GDP, that is what I was referring too.

[doublem]

This country has slowly erroded the family and friend network that carried it through the last depression. People took care of each other as much as they could to get through it. Now that is gone, everyone expects the government to get them through it. Many never were contributing before adversity developed. Including businesses. Totally crazy idea since the government skims the profits of every money maker or money making enterprise to finance the safety nets. Or now as in this case runs up incredible debt to sustain or increase them... This is madness and cannot turn out well going forward.

What? Should we go back to volunteerism like Hebert Hoover wanted? During the depression unemployment was at about 25%, people were living in cardboard shacks, and were waiting in bread lines. Do you really want to go back to that time?People worked there entire life for very little pay, and died early. I don't know why you have some nostalgic sentiment for that time period becasue it wasn't that great, things didn't start to improve until after years of New Deal Policies were put in place, and WW2 started. American became the most wealthy nation on the earth, and standard of living increased dramatically.

I am trying to reflect on why that failed and what really carried this country through the depression. You deserve what you wish for. You have well documented your background and achievements here. Along with the idiological dreams you believe in. To date you have not proven to me that you understood what the common man deals with let alone worldly issues. This isn't a grad school thesis on how we can save the world. It's finance 101 and this administration is continuing a path of failure.

The last world war was only turned by the industrial base of this country and ironically Russia's. Both nations could and did outproduce the German industrial base despite their superior technology. Through pure production they exceeded German technological superiority. Along with the personal commitment and sacrifice of many brave men. So throwing that out there is incredulous.

That industrial base is long gone, yet we invest in bailing out and expanding social nets. I hope we never see that again, but it's coming. Congratulations you are the first and only person on my ignore list.

I'm glad I finally made it on someones ignore list. I don't understand the common man? Who exactly is the common man? The "common man" is struggling in this country to afford health care, education for their children, decent wages. I have always said this country needs an industrial base, maybe producing green jobs can do that, I really don't know the answer to that. New Deal Policies helped put people back to work, which helped win WW2. I just don't see where industrial base and safety nets go together.

[doublem]

This country has slowly erroded the family and friend network that carried it through the last depression. People took care of each other as much as they could to get through it. Now that is gone, everyone expects the government to get them through it. Many never were contributing before adversity developed. Including businesses. Totally crazy idea since the government skims the profits of every money maker or money making enterprise to finance the safety nets. Or now as in this case runs up incredible debt to sustain or increase them... This is madness and cannot turn out well going forward.

What? Should we go back to volunteerism like Hebert Hoover wanted? During the depression unemployment was at about 25%, people were living in cardboard shacks, and were waiting in bread lines. Do you really want to go back to that time?People worked there entire life for very little pay, and died early. I don't know why you have some nostalgic sentiment for that time period becasue it wasn't that great, things didn't start to improve until after years of New Deal Policies were put in place, and WW2 started. American became the most wealthy nation on the earth, and standard of living increased dramatically.

The depression ended when the U.S. entered WWII. The country was still in the Great Depression until then despite the New Deal.

Yes, I said WW2 was important to ending the depression, but so was New Deal policies that helped put people back to work that made America a wealthy nation and built a strong industry.

[Ron`]

I'm glad I finally made it on someones ignore list. I don't understand the common man? Who exactly is the common man? The "common man" is struggling in this country to afford health care, education for their children, decent wages. I have always said this country needs an industrial base, maybe producing green jobs can do that, I really don't know the answer to that. New Deal Policies helped put people back to work, which helped win WW2. I just don't see where industrial base and safety nets go together.

I guess I have to log out for this to take effect.

This is where the purely academic system of history fails. If you had grown up listening to those that were there, followed the threads that are provided via the media or many academic inputs. You could come to a logical conclusion, liked or not, based on all the data. But when you fully accept only one input, you are lost. Typically the purely academic input is from a sole source, never requires rationalizing multiple inputs by the student. That is already done for you and well laid out in the text provided. Under a agenda provided by said professor that supposedly has already done that for you.

Hey but I live in a cave and have been called crazy.

[Ron`]

The new deal didn't get the american people through the depression, they got each other through it. I'm sorry to shatter dreams. The american people have to come together again to push this nation forward. To ignore factual history regaurding government intervention or military action is not sensible.

[doublem]

The new deal didn't get the american people through the depression, they got each other through it. I'm sorry to shatter dreams. The american people have to come together again to push this nation forward. To ignore factual history regaurding government intervention or military action is not sensible.

What does that mean they got each other through it? The country is a lot different then it was during the depression, during the depression FDR told people not to be afraid, today we are told to be afraid of everything, terrorist, health care, death panels. FDR tried to rational speak to the country and get them actively involved in politics ( Fireside chats, Gallup polls, Labor Unions). Today, the American people can't agree on anything, and have a hard time being reasonable on many things, same with the politicians. The country is very atomized it's very hard to have any common ground in 21th century America. When did I ignore factual history, I said WW2 helped end the depression, but to act like the new deal did nothing isn't true.

[HomerPenguin]

The US has the highest standard of living in the world.

Where do you get your numbers?

Please enlighten us on all the countries with higher standards of living.

In terms of health care?

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course that data comes from 2000; I'm guessing we'd rank lower than 37th if they did one now.

We do a little worse on life expectancy; 45th (but 30th among UN member states; HOORAY FOR US!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... expectancy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HomerPenguin]

I would like to hear your answer to ExPats question though. Where do we draw the line? How much is too much?

Pretty sure you can draw a line at our borders without tripping over any serious philosophical issues.

[Guinness]

I've been really busy at work this week and so haven't been able to join in this conversation much... And I feel like that's actually been a good thing!

Anyway, I read a really good member's blog tonight at Campaign for Liberty about the Health-Care Reform Town Hall Meetings that I thought I'd throw out there for you guys to read. Some of you on the pro- side of this debate may be surprised if you read the entire posting to find that the C4L member isn't nearly as stridently opposed to a government option as *some* of us (read: me ).

Check it out HERE if you wish.

Oh, one more thing... doublem - the New Deal did nothing to end the Great Depression... it prolonged it. In fact it didn't even end with our entry into World War II. The Great Depression actually didn't end until just after the war... when most Keynesians were predicting a deflationary depression (on account of decreased government spending ). This and more at mises.org.