LGP Political Discussion Thread

[shafnutz05]

I can't believe that the Dems are this stupid.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32298122/ns ... itol_hill/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

just another reason why they wanted to ram this all thru and get it passed before the public started to learn whats in it. as an angry man (a democrat) said to steny hoyer in new york "you want to shove this bill down our throats in 3 or 4 weeks when it took the president 6 months to figure out what kind of dog he wanted"

That is a great quote...this recess is the worst thing that could have ever happened to this bill. That Youtube I mentioned yesterday...I watched Rep. Tim Bishop (D) literally get into a verbal argument with a veteran over how well the government ran the VA system. After the veteran told him how horrible the quality/timeliness of treatment was and how inefficient it was, Bishop has the gall to say he is proud of the VA system and knows it's being run well. This despite the fact the arrogant SOB has never served a day in his life.

Anyone who thinks the Dems are trying to hurry up and get this bill passed to save hundreds of thousands of lives out of the goodness of their hearts needs to check their naivete. This is an IDEOLOGICAL bill...designed to allow the government to take over another part of the private sector, in addition to increasing tax burdens. I guarantee you the far-left abortion rights lobby put the screws to the Dems in Congress to get abortion-on-demand added to the bill. The Democrats are pushing this bill to advance their self-interest, not out of any goodwill.

[AlexPKeaton]

If they don't pull out that abortion part and vote on it separate, I don't see how a public insurance option would pass at all. That is a shame too, because I'd rather a public insurance option OR do nothing... but this blue dog compromise is much worse than either.

[HomerPenguin]

I can't believe that the Dems are this stupid.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32298122/ns ... itol_hill/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They really are that stupid, but in this case I suspect this is a bargaining chip.

[bh]

I really like Milton Friedman's solution. It sounds like a lot of the ideas posted here. As someone said earlier though, it ain't happening.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/3459466.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Health care does need reformed and we need Congress to get us there, but this Bill is not the way to a better system. The problem is that there are too many with their hands in the pot. To actually make care cheaper means you cut a lot of people making a living on the system out of the loop. I don't see how a giant new federal agency is going to do that.

[Ron`]

The only thing unfortunately that will get health care under control is to cut off the federal mandates for those that are not citizens to be provided care and then maybe those that cannot afford care. At that point all the "Brown Numbers" as previously discussed become real numbers. And then the true costs are defined.

Then maybe we can put together a real plan to cover those citizens that cannot afford and provide the needed safety blanket. Until this is done, it's all "Brown Numbers", being exploited by all sides of the equation. Profiting the insurance companies and potentially the health care industry without providing care for anyone fiscally responsibly.

[PensFanInDC]

http://www.katu.com/news/26119539.html

Her doctor offered hope in the new chemotherapy drug Tarceva, but the Oregon Health Plan sent her a letter telling her the cancer treatment was not approved.

Instead, the letter said, the plan would pay for comfort care, including "physician aid in dying," better known as assisted suicide.

Dr. Som Saha, chairman of the commission said state health officials do not consider whether it is cheaper for someone in the health plan to die than live. But he admitted they must consider the state's limited dollars when dealing with a case such as Wagner's.

"If we invest thousands and thousands of dollars in one person's days to weeks, we are taking away those dollars from someone," Saha said.

The Oregon Health Plan simply hasn't kept up with dramatic changes in chemotherapy, said Dr. David Fryefield of the Willamette Valley Cancer Center.

Even for those with advanced cancer, new chemotherapy drugs can extend life.

Yet the Oregon Health Plan only offers coverage for chemo that cures cancer - not if it can prolong a patient's life.

"We are looking at today's ... 2008 treatment, but we're using 1993 standards," Fryefield said. "When the Oregon Health Plan was created, it was 15 years ago, and there were not all the chemotherapy drugs that there are today."

Some pretty interesting stuff from some government run healthcare.

I was also wondering:

According to http://www.bls.gov/oes/2003/may/oes_29He.htm there are:

Anesthesiologists 23,790
Family and General Practitioners 111,990
Internists, General 50,140
Obstetricians and Gynecologists 19,180
Pediatricians, General 26,910
Psychiatrists 19,530
Surgeons 49,730
Total Doctors 301,270

Those numbers are now 6 years old. Let's give the benefit of the doubt and say that there was an amazing %10 increase in the number of doctors in the last 6 years. That brings the total number of doctors in the US to 331,397.

In July 2008 there is an estimated 304,059,724 people in the United States (http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=usp ... +of+the+US) Subtract the estimated 47 million uninsured and you get 257,059,724 insured people in this country. That's 1 doctor for every 775 people in the United States.

Now, add back in the 47 million uninsured and you will then have 1 doctor for every 917 people in the US (and that is with inflated doctor numbers).

If we all of a sudden now insure the whole nation then we really need to step up our doctor production. Or else we may see an amazing decline in the quality of care we receive.

[DelPen]

So for anyone keeping up with these town halls are you actually buying the garbage that Obama's administration is spewing that these are a tightly cooridanted act by Republican special interest groups who are paying people to manufacture anger at these things? I don;t get where the whole Brooks Brothers thing came from or these people were well dressed. I also don't see the mob or thug tag being close to what is happening here. It's funny, if this happened in the previous 8 years, these people questioning their representatives in a town hall about policy from the White House, they would all be hailed as patriots but because it's against Deomcrats they are called thugs and a mob. And the DNC ad trying to tie this to an organized effort has been debunked, the memo they base their entire dillusional rant on was a twitter to 5 people which was posted on an obscure message board and then repeated someplace else almost just as obscure.

And don't forget to report this post to flag@whitehouse.gov so Obama's brown shirts can come have a little chat with me.

[Ron`]

It's this simple, the clock is running out for passing anything that is not fiscally responsible on the majority party.... The entire country is realizing personal fiscal pain. Recovering from, in many cases, bad investments and poor budget management at the personal level. The extreme lag in Washington with recognizing the reality that is, is much like many of the previous administrations (both parties), and is going to come to a head. How much of a uprising occurs depends on near term actions.

[HomerPenguin]

It's funny, if this happened in the previous 8 years, these people questioning their representatives in a town hall about policy from the White House, they would all be hailed as patriots but because it's against Deomcrats they are called thugs and a mob.

Of course, in the previous 8 years, the president held town halls only for carefully screened supporters and confined protesters to "free-speech zones" far away from the events. I'm not sure if or when a Republican in Congress has actually held a public town hall over that time.

And the DNC ad trying to tie this to an organized effort has been debunked, the memo they base their entire dillusional rant on was a twitter to 5 people which was posted on an obscure message board and then repeated someplace else almost just as obscure.

Somebody tweeted a 10 page memo? Is Twitter still what I think it is?

There is some demonstrable organization of these outbursts by health industry groups, but it's being overstated by Democrats. The best way to put an end to the controversy would be to limit the town halls to the constituents of that congressperson only and to make it clear that any attempt to shut the proceedings down with these tactics and prevent the open and clear exchange of ideas and opinions between constituents and their representatives will lead to expulsion from the venue.

[shafnutz05]

So for anyone keeping up with these town halls are you actually buying the garbage that Obama's administration is spewing that these are a tightly cooridanted act by Republican special interest groups who are paying people to manufacture anger at these things? I don;t get where the whole Brooks Brothers thing came from or these people were well dressed. I also don't see the mob or thug tag being close to what is happening here. It's funny, if this happened in the previous 8 years, these people questioning their representatives in a town hall about policy from the White House, they would all be hailed as patriots but because it's against Deomcrats they are called thugs and a mob. And the DNC ad trying to tie this to an organized effort has been debunked, the memo they base their entire dillusional rant on was a twitter to 5 people which was posted on an obscure message board and then repeated someplace else almost just as obscure.

And don't forget to report this post to flag@whitehouse.gov so Obama's brown shirts can come have a little chat with me.

Tell me about it.....I am actually SHOCKED that the Democratic National Committee is airing these ads calling the angry citizens mobs. I almost feel like Democrats are deliberately trying to p*ss off Americans...the tone of condescension is ridiculous. It's going to backfire right in their face

[Ron`]

So for anyone keeping up with these town halls are you actually buying the garbage that Obama's administration is spewing that these are a tightly cooridanted act by Republican special interest groups who are paying people to manufacture anger at these things? I don;t get where the whole Brooks Brothers thing came from or these people were well dressed. I also don't see the mob or thug tag being close to what is happening here. It's funny, if this happened in the previous 8 years, these people questioning their representatives in a town hall about policy from the White House, they would all be hailed as patriots but because it's against Deomcrats they are called thugs and a mob. And the DNC ad trying to tie this to an organized effort has been debunked, the memo they base their entire dillusional rant on was a twitter to 5 people which was posted on an obscure message board and then repeated someplace else almost just as obscure.

And don't forget to report this post to flag@whitehouse.gov so Obama's brown shirts can come have a little chat with me.

Tell me about it.....I am actually SHOCKED that the Democratic National Committee is airing these ads calling the angry citizens mobs. I almost feel like Democrats are deliberately trying to p*ss off Americans...the tone of condescension is ridiculous. It's going to backfire right in their face

It's pure elitism by the ruling party period. Bathing in the power they now wield without concern for the future. It's like a bachelor party that has gone out of control....

[DelPen]

In all these videos I have yet to see the poeple in suits and the people carrying signs with swastikas as Pelosi claimed today.

And HomerPenguin, read this and tell me the DNC is not completely making this crap up: http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/T ... ufactu.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[shafnutz05]

Now, add back in the 47 million uninsured and you will then have 1 doctor for every 917 people in the US (and that is with inflated doctor numbers).

If we all of a sudden now insure the whole nation then we really need to step up our doctor production. Or else we may see an amazing decline in the quality of care we receive.

PensFanInDC, sorry to cut out a bunch of your post, but congratulations, you have hit the nail on the head.

Like you said, even assuming the best-case scenario doctor numbers, the ratio of doctors to citizens will still me frighteningly wide. Now here's the problem. Most people can agree on the fact that if the government takes over the healthcare system (Obama has said he wants a single-payer system, it IS the end objective, feel free to argue that point), doctors will have strict ceilings placed on the amount of earnings they can make. We already know that the government is not shying away from controlling the salaries of private companies (even those that accepted ZERO bailout money).

Everyone knows medical school is EXTREMELY difficult, and costs a ton of money...so why do people go? Because of the awesome earning potential and rewarding career of course (but mostly the money, for the most part). So imagine that same potential medical school student looking at a healthcare system where he knows that a) his earning potential is going to be extremely limited, and b) he is going to be forced by the government to accept patients that are practically uninsured. Doctors everywhere are screaming about Medicare payments that are never being sent to the practices, so they are essentially treating these people for free.

And thus the shortage gets worse, and worse, and worse. That is exactly the why people in Canada and Britain are waiting months and months for routine procedures...because people are running from the healthcare field in droves.

[PensFanInDC]

It's like a bachelor party that has gone out of control....

[HomerPenguin]

And HomerPenguin, read this and tell me the DNC is not completely making this crap up: http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/T ... ufactu.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They're exaggerating the importance of the memo. Meanwhile:

http://politics.theatlantic.com/2009/07 ... august.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The same three groups who helped coordinate the April 15 tea parties are working to organize the August 22 events: American Liberty Alliance (formerly the Don't Go movement), FreedomWorks, and Americans for Prosperity. They've joined in a coalition with new media/community organizing group The Sam Adams Alliance and political training institute American Majority.

"Organize" is used in a loose sense here. The model is to provide information about where tea parties will take place (via the recessrally.com website and the websites of the organizing groups), alert group members via email or telephone, and largely leave it up to individuals to access that information and find out where to go.

Tea party organizers have always insisted, and still do, that their movement is, in that way, fundamentally organic. But they do, as this coalition has done, set the dates...so while August 22 events may be more or less organic, they're not spontaneous.

The tea parties will be promoted through an affiliation with conservative blogs and websites including RedState, Michelle Malkin, NetRightNation, and Smart Girl Politics, who have also signed onto the coalition, as well as through the e-mail lists kept by the organizing groups (as mentioned above, generally comprised of fewer than 800,000 people) and through a Facebook group of 50,000 tea partiers handled by American Liberty Alliance.

FreedomWorks is a corporate lobbying group run by Dick Armey

Americans for Prosperity is an oil industry front group that has done corporate work for the tobacco industry, among others

There is an element of central planning going on here despite how "spontaneous" they want to pretend it all is.

[PensFanInDC]

Dick Armey

[Ron`]

Homer I don't doubt that at all.

[shafnutz05]

Dick Armey

Reminds me of a certain woman with the last name "Coast Guard"...

[Ron`]

Dick Armey

Reminds me of a certain woman with the last name "Coast Guard"...

Or three young ladies named Hope, Joy and Faith.....

[pittsoccer33]

More Brown Shirt tactics from the White House:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... b4d44.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Basically the President has begun compiling a database of American citizens who oppose the Obamacare bill. Maybe he can ask the Congress to re-enact the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798.

On a related note AFL-CIO head John Sweeney has promised to send his guys in there "to directly engage with boisterous conservative protesters." And look what happened last night: [youtube][/youtube]

[DelPen]

Two town halls yesterday, one in Tampa and the other in St. Louis, got ugly as members of the SEIU, there on the request of the White House and the DNC, decided to block entry to the one in Tampa, which the Rep there tried to sneak in at the last minute, and 6 SEIU members were arrested for assaulting a black man selling "Don't Tread on Me" flags outside the St. Louis meeting. Their reason was he was assaulting America.

The only clear evidence of a coordinated effort to attend these town halls has been down by labor unions so far and they only turned violent after these thugs get deployed. Can anyone point to one anti-war protest under W that anyone on the right decided to crash and make violent? Obama's talk of change and stopping the politics of fear has been a sham much like everything else he campaigned on.

[MWB]

More Brown Shirt tactics from the White House:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... b4d44.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Basically the President has begun compiling a database of American citizens who oppose the Obamacare bill. Maybe he can ask the Congress to re-enact the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798.

When you site an article and then make a statement like that, it implies that the article is saying the President is doing that. The White House is asking for articles that seem to be "intentionally misleading" are forwarded to them to clarify the info. Whether you agree with that or not, that's what the article says. Senator Cornyn wants "the administration inform Congress what it's doing to ensure that names and electronic information about citizens weighing in on health care are not collected." Just because someone is saying that want to make sure something doesn't happen doesn't mean that it is happening.

[Guinness]

"The only people who could POSSIBLY be opposed to the government's health care plan are evil corporations bent on keeping the yoke on the people and Republicans who wish to make the President look like a failure in their bid to recapture power, and a few whacko neo-nazis. There is no real, legitimate popular opposition to this plan. The PEOPLE want it. Keep that in mind, Mr. and Mrs. Citizen, if you were considering standing in opposition to this plan. You're casting your lot with evil corporations, power-hungry Republicans, and neo-nazis. ...and we're watching..."

[DelPen]

More Brown Shirt tactics from the White House:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... b4d44.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Basically the President has begun compiling a database of American citizens who oppose the Obamacare bill. Maybe he can ask the Congress to re-enact the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798.

When you site an article and then make a statement like that, it implies that the article is saying the President is doing that. The White House is asking for articles that seem to be "intentionally misleading" are forwarded to them to clarify the info. Whether you agree with that or not, that's what the article says. Senator Cornyn wants "the administration inform Congress what it's doing to ensure that names and electronic information about citizens weighing in on health care are not collected." Just because someone is saying that want to make sure something doesn't happen doesn't mean that it is happening.

The problem here is any email sent to a whitehouse email address is kept in the National Archives which means there is a database that will contain any and all information including names sent in and this is illegal. We've seen what liberal cronies will do to people who ask legitimate questions that go against Obama, look what happened to Joe the Plumber when he got Obama to admit he wanted to spread the wealth around. And since when is the White House asking for something not the same as the President asking for it?

[shafnutz05]

On another note, Time Magazine wrote another cutting and to-the-point investigative report this week on the Obama presidency...I think it's going to raise a lot of legitimate questions regarding his policies and the declining support he is experiencing across the country. Extremely well-written and salient...let's see what you guys think? Read below

"President Barack Obama, who took up golf in his mid-30s as a relaxing alternative to basketball, did not find much time to play during the campaign. But now that his game is out of the closet, it is clear that he duffs in much the same way that he tries to govern. Whereas Bill Clinton was known to shout, curse and rehit balls until he liked his shot, Obama never cuts a corner in golf, say his companions. No mulligans. No five-foot gimme putts on the green. "I've never seen him get to the point where he just picks up," says Marvin Nicholson, the White House trip director and a regular partner. "I've seen him write a 10 down. I've seen him write an 11 down."