Random Penguins Fodder

[FLPensFan]

Friedman on NHL radio this morning said that GM's don't love this coming draft. Basically said after 20, it falls off a cliff. So that late first round pick doesn't have great value.

If that is the case then maybe we should give SJ our pick this year (assuming we don't fall off a cliff).

Said a lot depends on the next few weeks and if there will be more sellers. Right now there's not a lot out there.

We don't have a choice. If it's not a top 10 pick, SJ gets the 2024 pick.

[KG]

Friedman on NHL radio this morning said that GM's don't love this coming draft. Basically said after 20, it falls off a cliff. So that late first round pick doesn't have great value.

If that is the case then maybe we should give SJ our pick this year (assuming we don't fall off a cliff).

Said a lot depends on the next few weeks and if there will be more sellers. Right now there's not a lot out there.

We don't have a choice. If it's not a top 10 pick, SJ gets the 2024 pick.

Ah, good to know, thanks! Thought it was the Pens options 24/25 with top 10 protection.

[pens_CT]

Friedman on NHL radio this morning said that GM's don't love this coming draft. Basically said after 20, it falls off a cliff. So that late first round pick doesn't have great value.

If that is the case then maybe we should give SJ our pick this year (assuming we don't fall off a cliff).

Said a lot depends on the next few weeks and if there will be more sellers. Right now there's not a lot out there.

Doesn't give you a warm feeling about getting a number one pick for Guentzel as part of a trade. That would obviously be in the 20s. Maybe they ask for a 2025 1st round pick instead.

[pens_CT]

Friedman on NHL radio this morning said that GM's don't love this coming draft. Basically said after 20, it falls off a cliff. So that late first round pick doesn't have great value.

If that is the case then maybe we should give SJ our pick this year (assuming we don't fall off a cliff).

Said a lot depends on the next few weeks and if there will be more sellers. Right now there's not a lot out there.

We don't have a choice. If it's not a top 10 pick, SJ gets the 2024 pick.

Ah, good to know, thanks! Thought it was the Pens options 24/25 with top 10 protection.

Its probably best to give up the pick now instead of kicking that can down the road. Next year's team could be in line to get a higher pick.

[largegarlic]

I get that any 1st round pick they get for Guentzel is likely to be in the 20s and thus unlikely to result in an impact player, but the state of the Pens' farm system is such that even a mid-20s pick would immediately be in the Pens' top 10 prospects, maybe top 5. Poulin was a late first rounder, has had an up-and-down development path, and is still probably in the top 5 prospects. The draft is a lottery, and the more tickets you have, the better the odds that you win, even if the odds are never great.

[Antonio]

That's part of the problem with drafts... our draft history in the last years has been abysmal I believe. Someone posted an evaluation I think of how many games our best highest picks have played in the NHL over the last 10 or so years and it's pitiful. We're in a bit of a Kobayashi Maru here... we need assets desperately but we also haven't shown a good track record of making good selections and cultivating that talent. Part of it I think goes back to how badly we need to clean house in the organization. So what do we do? Get picks and then bungle them? Who knows. You never know though. Look at Jake... hell Kucherov I think was a late 2nd rounder and I highly doubt anyone thought he would ever be almost putting up 2ppg.

[FLPensFan]

That's part of the problem with drafts... our draft history in the last years has been abysmal I believe. Someone posted an evaluation I think of how many games our best highest picks have played in the NHL over the last 10 or so years and it's pitiful. We're in a bit of a Kobayashi Maru here... we need assets desperately but we also haven't shown a good track record of making good selections and cultivating that talent. Part of it I think goes back to how badly we need to clean house in the organization I think. So what do we do? Get picks and then bungle them? Who knows. You never know though. Look at Jake... hell Kucherov I think was a late 2nd rounder and I highly doubt anyone thought he would ever be almost putting up 2ppg.

That was me that posted the 20-32 overall picks from 2005 to 2013. To go even a bit further, the Penguins have drafted A LOT of players that never even made it to the AHL level while with the Penguins (some later signed AHL only deals with other orgs). Since 2016 to 2019, Connor Hall, Ryan Jones, Joe Masonius, Antti Palojarvi, Clayton Phillips (1 game), Zachary Lauzon, Judd Caufield, Santeri Airola never played an AHL game for us. All teams are going to have some guys that never make it. The Penguins have a large amount in a short period of time

[Guinness]

Isn't the Kobyashi Maru the insolvable problem"? I don't think that's where we're at... at least not now - we have a new GM who hasn't gone thru a draft yet. Once he shows us what his strategy is going to be, then we can judge his management.

[Antonio]

Isn't the Kobyashi Maru the insolvable problem"? I don't think that's where we're at... at least not now - we have a new GM who hasn't gone thru a draft yet. Once he shows us what his strategy is going to be, then we can judge his management.

Well it's a no win scenario more accurately but you are correct in that we haven't seen the new gm draft. So you make a solid point. However I'm unclear on how much of our scouting staff has changed so I have no real reference on how much to expect in the realm of different drafting quality. We shall see one way or another.

[Guinness]

Isn't the Kobyashi Maru the insolvable problem"? I don't think that's where we're at... at least not now - we have a new GM who hasn't gone thru a draft yet. Once he shows us what his strategy is going to be, then we can judge his management.

Well it's a no win scenario more accurately but you are correct in that we haven't seen the new gm draft. So you make a solid point. However I'm unclear on how much of our scouting staff has changed so I have no real reference on how much to expect in the realm of different drafting quality. We shall see one way or another.

Good point on the scouting staff - I would really hope that some changes have been made in that department, but I don't recall any reporting on that since summer. Since we know FSG has deep pockets, one would think that this would very logically be an area in which to heavily invest, especially at this point in the team's trajectory.

[Puck-Lurker]

Isn't the Kobyashi Maru the insolvable problem"? I don't think that's where we're at... at least not now - we have a new GM who hasn't gone thru a draft yet. Once he shows us what his strategy is going to be, then we can judge his management.

Nerd moment...
The Kobayashi Maru scenario (of which there are different versions) is not so much an unwinnable scenario, as it is one that doesn't end. It keeps presenting insurmountable problems. If one is resolved correctly, by following rules and regulations, another bigger problem appears. Inevitably the person taking the test falters sooner rather than later. It's my theory that, someone taking the test correctly, would go on forever (a practical impossibility, I suppose it cannot end with a win).

Now comparing the Kobayashi Maru to our PP....

[BigMcK]

I seem to remember that 25 years ago (not certain of the exact time period), the Pens had heavy presence in the Eastern European Block, namely around the Czech league. The well brought nothing of note; a deaf D-man Stefan Bergkvist, Robert Stome, Milan Kraft, Koltsov...

And then, the scouts earned their keep and picked Orpik, Malkin, Talbot, Stall, Fluery, Armstrong, Biznasty, Bortuzzo, Letang, Crosby...

Bring back that team of scouts.

[Guinness]

I seem to remember that 25 years ago (not certain of the exact time period), the Pens had heavy presence in the Eastern European Block, namely around the Czech league. The well brought nothing of note; a deaf D-man Stefan Bergkvist, Robert Stome, Milan Kraft, Koltsov...

And then, the scouts earned their keep and picked Orpik, Malkin, Talbot, Stall, Fluery, Armstrong, Biznasty, Bortuzzo, Letang, Crosby...

Bring back that team of scouts.

Yep, our lineup in the late 90's/early ought's was heavily Czech - Jagr (of course), Straka, Robert Lang, Jiri Slegr, Jan Hrdina... I'm sure there are more, but that's just off the top of my head.

That said, I *think* only Hrdina was drafted by PGH... maybe Straka? And Jags, but that one was both obvious and also a bit of a hope and a prayer that he'd be able to get out of Eastern Europe at the time.

So your point definitely stands, my man - the team's efforts in Czech were much for not. And that includes the horrible Jan Hlinka experiment!

Side note: the Straka/Lang/Kovalev line was one of my all-time favorite lines in Pittsburgh Penguins history.

[lemieuxReturns]

Rozsíval

[Guinness]

Rozsíval

Yep, and who was his frequently paired defense partner... wore number 2... can't think of his name...?

[FLPensFan]

I seem to remember that 25 years ago (not certain of the exact time period), the Pens had heavy presence in the Eastern European Block, namely around the Czech league. The well brought nothing of note; a deaf D-man Stefan Bergkvist, Robert Stome, Milan Kraft, Koltsov...

And then, the scouts earned their keep and picked Orpik, Malkin, Talbot, Stall, Fluery, Armstrong, Biznasty, Bortuzzo, Letang, Crosby...

Bring back that team of scouts.

Yep, our lineup in the late 90's/early ought's was heavily Czech - Jagr (of course), Straka, Robert Lang, Jiri Slegr, Jan Hrdina... I'm sure there are more, but that's just off the top of my head.

That said, I *think* only Hrdina was drafted by PGH... maybe Straka? And Jags, but that one was both obvious and also a bit of a hope and a prayer that he'd be able to get out of Eastern Europe at the time.

So your point definitely stands, my man - the team's efforts in Czech were much for not. And that includes the horrible Jan Hlinka experiment!

Side note: the Straka/Lang/Kovalev line was one of my all-time favorite lines in Pittsburgh Penguins history.

Well, that was pretty much Craig Patrick's doing, as he was the GM and the one who hired the scouts. But that's just another frustrating thing about this team. It's one thing to not have the picks, but it's something else to complete whiff on the picks that you do have.

2016 - We have 2 2nds, and a 3rd-6th. Gustavsson and Bjorkqvist are the 2nds, which are good. Josh Mahura was available over Connor Hall in the 3rd, Michael Eyssimont was available in the 5th instead of Ryan Jones in the 4th, instead of Almari at the end of the 5th...Brandon Hagel and Jesper Bratt were available and taken in the 6th round.

2017 - We have a 2nd, 3rd, 2 5th, a 6th and a 7th. Nobody from this draft made the NHL, and we selected 4 d-men. Morgan Geekie and Stuart Skinner were there in the 3rd instead of Zach Lauzon at the end of the 2nd.

2018 - 2 2nds, a 5th and a 6th. Addison and Hallander were our 2nd round choices. Kevin Bahl went in between those 2 picks in the 2nd round. Jack McBain went in early 3rd round. Yegor Sharangovich went in the 5th round after our selection of Justin Almeida.

2019 - We had a 1st, 3rd, 5th and 2 7ths - Poulin and Legare were the 1st and 3rd. We took Poulin 21st...Shane Pinto, Arthur Kaliyev, Hoglander, all went early 2nd round.

It's a little harder to judge 2020 and forward, and, I left out a few players that may have been picked before we had a chance. The thing is, there are some good players available in the later rounds...and we are a team that hasn't hit on any of those late round picks in almost 20 years...guys like Talbot, Kennedy, Kuhnhackl, Wilson, Archibald, Muzzin, and Moulson were the last meaningful, impactful late round picks we've had.

Don't want to get into the larger conversation right now, but I truly believe the NHL is cannibalizing itself. It has the weakest draft pool of any major sport, and yet year over year, coaches continue to implement systems that continue to shrink the prospect pool. Can't draft this guy that has Alex Ovechkin level shot because he "can't skate." Can't draft this guy because he's great offensively but poor defensively.

It's the main reason why I am 1000% against furth NHL expansion. The league doesn't have the prospect pool to support the state of today's game.

[FLPensFan]

Rozsíval

Yep, and who was his frequently paired defense partner... wore number 2... can't think of his name...?

The shoulderless wonder Joe Melichar. He was a good player and probably could have been a solid 4/5 defenseman if he didn't have repeated shoulder issues and surgeries.

[KG]

No Geno or Acciari at practice today….

[Pitts]

I seem to remember that 25 years ago (not certain of the exact time period), the Pens had heavy presence in the Eastern European Block, namely around the Czech league. The well brought nothing of note; a deaf D-man Stefan Bergkvist, Robert Stome, Milan Kraft, Koltsov...

And then, the scouts earned their keep and picked Orpik, Malkin, Talbot, Stall, Fluery, Armstrong, Biznasty, Bortuzzo, Letang, Crosby...

Bring back that team of scouts.

Yep, our lineup in the late 90's/early ought's was heavily Czech - Jagr (of course), Straka, Robert Lang, Jiri Slegr, Jan Hrdina... I'm sure there are more, but that's just off the top of my head.

That said, I *think* only Hrdina was drafted by PGH... maybe Straka? And Jags, but that one was both obvious and also a bit of a hope and a prayer that he'd be able to get out of Eastern Europe at the time.

So your point definitely stands, my man - the team's efforts in Czech were much for not. And that includes the horrible Jan Hlinka experiment!

Side note: the Straka/Lang/Kovalev line was one of my all-time favorite lines in Pittsburgh Penguins history.

How did you both forget Petr Nedved! The Czech's kept the team afloat from 95 - 01!

Also mention: Josef Beranek, Petr Klima, Frantisek Kucera, Pavel Skrbek, Jiri Hrdina (very early '90's)

And, it wasn't Robert Stome - you're thinking Robert Dome. I still remember the huge press story about the team drafting him! and he was Slovak, not Czech

For the record, Czech players drafted by Pens all time:
Jiří Kučera 87
Jaromir Jagr 90
Ladislav Karabin 90
Martin Straka 92
Jan Alinc 92
Jan Hrdina 95
Pavel Skrbek 96
Michal Rozsíval 96
Josef Melichar 97
Petr Havelka 97
Milan Kraft 98
Jan Fadrný 98
David Kočí 00
Roman Šimíček 00
Tomáš Duba 01
Ondřej Němec 02
Lukáš Bolf 03
Dominik Uher 11
Dominik Simon 15

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... raft_picks

[FLPensFan]

No Geno or Acciari at practice today….

Geno maintenance day. Acciari has a concussion, per Sullivan.

[Dynasty1970]

No Geno or Acciari at practice today….

Geno maintenance day. Acciari has a concussion, per Sullivan.

I got no problem with it, but a maintenance day after all of this time off during the All Star Break? Seems odd to me.

[Guinness]

I seem to remember that 25 years ago (not certain of the exact time period), the Pens had heavy presence in the Eastern European Block, namely around the Czech league. The well brought nothing of note; a deaf D-man Stefan Bergkvist, Robert Stome, Milan Kraft, Koltsov...

And then, the scouts earned their keep and picked Orpik, Malkin, Talbot, Stall, Fluery, Armstrong, Biznasty, Bortuzzo, Letang, Crosby...

Bring back that team of scouts.

Yep, our lineup in the late 90's/early ought's was heavily Czech - Jagr (of course), Straka, Robert Lang, Jiri Slegr, Jan Hrdina... I'm sure there are more, but that's just off the top of my head.

That said, I *think* only Hrdina was drafted by PGH... maybe Straka? And Jags, but that one was both obvious and also a bit of a hope and a prayer that he'd be able to get out of Eastern Europe at the time.

So your point definitely stands, my man - the team's efforts in Czech were much for not. And that includes the horrible Jan Hlinka experiment!

Side note: the Straka/Lang/Kovalev line was one of my all-time favorite lines in Pittsburgh Penguins history.

Well, that was pretty much Craig Patrick's doing, as he was the GM and the one who hired the scouts. But that's just another frustrating thing about this team. It's one thing to not have the picks, but it's something else to complete whiff on the picks that you do have.

2016 - We have 2 2nds, and a 3rd-6th. Gustavsson and Bjorkqvist are the 2nds, which are good. Josh Mahura was available over Connor Hall in the 3rd, Michael Eyssimont was available in the 5th instead of Ryan Jones in the 4th, instead of Almari at the end of the 5th...Brandon Hagel and Jesper Bratt were available and taken in the 6th round.

2017 - We have a 2nd, 3rd, 2 5th, a 6th and a 7th. Nobody from this draft made the NHL, and we selected 4 d-men. Morgan Geekie and Stuart Skinner were there in the 3rd instead of Zach Lauzon at the end of the 2nd.

2018 - 2 2nds, a 5th and a 6th. Addison and Hallander were our 2nd round choices. Kevin Bahl went in between those 2 picks in the 2nd round. Jack McBain went in early 3rd round. Yegor Sharangovich went in the 5th round after our selection of Justin Almeida.

2019 - We had a 1st, 3rd, 5th and 2 7ths - Poulin and Legare were the 1st and 3rd. We took Poulin 21st...Shane Pinto, Arthur Kaliyev, Hoglander, all went early 2nd round.

It's a little harder to judge 2020 and forward, and, I left out a few players that may have been picked before we had a chance. The thing is, there are some good players available in the later rounds...and we are a team that hasn't hit on any of those late round picks in almost 20 years...guys like Talbot, Kennedy, Kuhnhackl, Wilson, Archibald, Muzzin, and Moulson were the last meaningful, impactful late round picks we've had.

Don't want to get into the larger conversation right now, but I truly believe the NHL is cannibalizing itself. It has the weakest draft pool of any major sport, and yet year over year, coaches continue to implement systems that continue to shrink the prospect pool. Can't draft this guy that has Alex Ovechkin level shot because he "can't skate." Can't draft this guy because he's great offensively but poor defensively.

It's the main reason why I am 1000% against furth NHL expansion. The league doesn't have the prospect pool to support the state of today's game.

First I am 1000% with you regarding expansion. Frankly it has never made for a better league, but particularly the 90's expansion severely diluted the talent and gave us the clutch-and-grab era. Another expansion will probably give us the same. I want a team in Quebec City, but only from the relocation of the completely failed experiment down in the desert.

Second, GMCP was a genius in the early 90's, wheeling and dealing and constructing an UNBELIEVEABLE roster (granted in he pre-cap era of course). BUt the game completely passed him by. If I recall correctly, there wasn't a single computer in the head office when Shero took over.

Last, it's amazing to me how successful this franchise has been over the course of 3 decades with such an abysmal talent evaluation process. That has to change, and quick! We can't hope that we're going to fall ass-backward into another generational talent again as we have since 1984... we're literally the people who hit the lottery twice in our lifetime and expect the party is just going to keep on rolling. NO OTHER team has had the fortune that we've had (maybe Chicago... maybe), and we need to get our talent evaluation game together ASAP. Sid is playing amazing, but that's not going to last forever.

[Guinness]

Rozsíval

Yep, and who was his frequently paired defense partner... wore number 2... can't think of his name...?

The shoulderless wonder Joe Melichar. He was a good player and probably could have been a solid 4/5 defenseman if he didn't have repeated shoulder issues and surgeries.

AH! Thank you! lol that was driving me crazy trying to think of him!

[Guinness]

I seem to remember that 25 years ago (not certain of the exact time period), the Pens had heavy presence in the Eastern European Block, namely around the Czech league. The well brought nothing of note; a deaf D-man Stefan Bergkvist, Robert Stome, Milan Kraft, Koltsov...

And then, the scouts earned their keep and picked Orpik, Malkin, Talbot, Stall, Fluery, Armstrong, Biznasty, Bortuzzo, Letang, Crosby...

Bring back that team of scouts.

Yep, our lineup in the late 90's/early ought's was heavily Czech - Jagr (of course), Straka, Robert Lang, Jiri Slegr, Jan Hrdina... I'm sure there are more, but that's just off the top of my head.

That said, I *think* only Hrdina was drafted by PGH... maybe Straka? And Jags, but that one was both obvious and also a bit of a hope and a prayer that he'd be able to get out of Eastern Europe at the time.

So your point definitely stands, my man - the team's efforts in Czech were much for not. And that includes the horrible Jan Hlinka experiment!

Side note: the Straka/Lang/Kovalev line was one of my all-time favorite lines in Pittsburgh Penguins history.

How did you both forget Petr Nedved! The Czech's kept the team afloat from 95 - 01!

Also mention: Josef Beranek, Petr Klima, Frantisek Kucera, Pavel Skrbek, Jiri Hrdina (very early '90's)

And, it wasn't Robert Stome - you're thinking Robert Dome. I still remember the huge press story about the team drafting him! and he was Slovak, not Czech

For the record, Czech players drafted by Pens all time:
Jiří Kučera 87
Jaromir Jagr 90
Ladislav Karabin 90
Martin Straka 92
Jan Alinc 92
Jan Hrdina 95
Pavel Skrbek 96
Michal Rozsíval 96
Josef Melichar 97
Petr Havelka 97
Milan Kraft 98
Jan Fadrný 98
David Kočí 00
Roman Šimíček 00
Tomáš Duba 01
Ondřej Němec 02
Lukáš Bolf 03
Dominik Uher 11
Dominik Simon 15

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... raft_picks

For the record, I didn't forget about Petr Nedved, but we picked him up - I think via free agency - from NYR, which was tremendous and he scored the 4OT goal in '96 against the Caps if I remember correctly?

That said, that's a tremendous list of Czech Pens! I had high hopes for Milan Kraft and Robert Dome.

Marty Straka was always the little engine that could... loved that guy!

[FLPensFan]

I seem to remember that 25 years ago (not certain of the exact time period), the Pens had heavy presence in the Eastern European Block, namely around the Czech league. The well brought nothing of note; a deaf D-man Stefan Bergkvist, Robert Stome, Milan Kraft, Koltsov...

And then, the scouts earned their keep and picked Orpik, Malkin, Talbot, Stall, Fluery, Armstrong, Biznasty, Bortuzzo, Letang, Crosby...

Bring back that team of scouts.

Yep, our lineup in the late 90's/early ought's was heavily Czech - Jagr (of course), Straka, Robert Lang, Jiri Slegr, Jan Hrdina... I'm sure there are more, but that's just off the top of my head.

That said, I *think* only Hrdina was drafted by PGH... maybe Straka? And Jags, but that one was both obvious and also a bit of a hope and a prayer that he'd be able to get out of Eastern Europe at the time.

So your point definitely stands, my man - the team's efforts in Czech were much for not. And that includes the horrible Jan Hlinka experiment!

Side note: the Straka/Lang/Kovalev line was one of my all-time favorite lines in Pittsburgh Penguins history.

How did you both forget Petr Nedved! The Czech's kept the team afloat from 95 - 01!

Also mention: Josef Beranek, Petr Klima, Frantisek Kucera, Pavel Skrbek, Jiri Hrdina (very early '90's)

And, it wasn't Robert Stome - you're thinking Robert Dome. I still remember the huge press story about the team drafting him! and he was Slovak, not Czech

For the record, Czech players drafted by Pens all time:
Jiří Kučera 87
Jaromir Jagr 90
Ladislav Karabin 90
Martin Straka 92
Jan Alinc 92
Jan Hrdina 95
Pavel Skrbek 96
Michal Rozsíval 96
Josef Melichar 97
Petr Havelka 97
Milan Kraft 98
Jan Fadrný 98
David Kočí 00
Roman Šimíček 00
Tomáš Duba 01
Ondřej Němec 02
Lukáš Bolf 03
Dominik Uher 11
Dominik Simon 15

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... raft_picks

For the record, I didn't forget about Petr Nedved, but we picked him up - I think via free agency - from NYR, which was tremendous and he scored the 4OT goal in '96 against the Caps if I remember correctly?

That said, that's a tremendous list of Czech Pens! I had high hopes for Milan Kraft and Robert Dome.

Marty Straka was always the little engine that could... loved that guy!

Nedved was acquired in one of the bigger trades (overshadowed by the Francis and Tocchet trades a few years earlier).

Nedved and Zubov to Pittsburgh for Robitaille and Ulf

After 3 years and another contract dispute (he was traded out of Vancouver to STL after a dispute with the Canucks), we traded him back to the Rangers in another memorable trade:

Nedved, Sean Pronger, and Chris Tamer to Rangers for Alex Kovalev and Harry York.