What do you think the Pens will do with Jake by the trade deadline

[Daniel]

As much as I want to make an excuse for Jake to stay, I really don't see a viable avenue to that happening.

So if they can sell on him and get a decent roster player, a high-end prospect and a 1st round pick, I think they have to do it. The ONLY problem I have with it is that, unless a contender has a 1st round pick from another trade, I'd hate to lose Jake for a 22nd overall, or something like that. Unless that high-end prospect is bona fide.

ETA: Smith's injury makes this decision a little more challenging,,,

Unfortunately you can count on the 1st round pick if it comes from this draft to be in the 20s. When you’re trading the best player in the deal it’s hard to win such a trade at least in the short term. You have to hope the prospect you obtain turns into a good player a couple of years down the road, and that a late round 1st player eventually makes the team and isn’t a bust.

Probably would be about 25th but that pick would probably be top 5 best prospect in the franchise.

[IntangibleBeer]

I know most folks think the Pens will trade Jake, but if they do, who on the team will play with the same fire?

He and Crosby have been the ones who consistently show up, who consistently attack, who consistently play with passion. Who do you replace him with?

[FLPensFan]

I know most folks think the Pens will trade Jake, but if they do, who on the team will play with the same fire?

He and Crosby have been the ones who consistently show up, who consistently attack, who consistently play with passion. Who do you replace him with?

For me, this isn't anything against Jake the player. This isn't 100% about Jake's age, but that is a factor.

This team needs to get younger. This team needs to more evenly distribute its scoring. This team needs to go back to its roots. Chris Kunitz wasn't a 40 goal scorer. He was an 18-25 goal scorer (who once popped off for 35). Pascal Dupuis wasn't even a top 6 player when we got him. Ruslan Fedotenko wasn't a 30 goal scorer.

For all the just play mantra and keeping his system relatively the same all these years, Sullivan has gotten away from the skilled, gritty guys like Kunitz or Fedotenko. Our last Cup team had Kunitz and Hornqvist up front, and Ian Cole and Ron Hainsey on the backend. Where are those equivalents that last 3-4 years? We had Sheary, Rust, Wilson, Kuhnhackl, Guentzel and Maatta as 6 skaters on the roster all under the age of 25. Where is that youth? DOC, Puustinen, and POJ...where the latter 2 cannot even get a regular spot in the lineup.

This team needs some more youth. This team needs at least 2 grittier, skilled players. This team needs to stop loading up the top 6 with goal scorers that don't play defense.

The timeline of this team today doesn't make sense for Guentzel to stay. We have him today at a very team favorable price, and the team hasn't taken advantage of it. At likely 4M more in cost to keep him, he's not suddenly going to put us over the top and make us a Cup contender.

This team needs to decide if everyone wants to be buddy-buddy, play with their pals, keep everyone happy, and ride off into the sunset golfing in April and May, or if they want to finally take the right approach to building a roster around the cores last few years...because the last 2 years construction has been anything but the right way.

[Pens4Life]

Rumour :
Pens get Kuzmenko (with salary retained), Aatu Raty 21yrs C from Finland and 2024 1st rounder
Canucks get Guentzel and 5th rounder..

Wouldn't be in a rush to make the trade. Where is this rumor??

On Facebook - it was from some hockey insider I think, its gone already,deleted haha..

[KG]

Rumour :
Pens get Kuzmenko (with salary retained), Aatu Raty 21yrs C from Finland and 2024 1st rounder
Canucks get Guentzel and 5th rounder..

Wouldn't be in a rush to make the trade. Where is this rumor??

On Facebook - it was from some hockey insider I think, its gone already,deleted haha..

Ah yeah, I don't see that as a great return for Jake. I think Raty isn't a top prospect. To me I think the prospect is the most important part of any potential trade. 1st round pick will be in the mid 20's and the roster player won't be top end I wouldn't think. I wonder if Dubas would let Jakes agent negotiate an extension with the team prior to trade, this way we can optimize our return and get a legit package back.

If it's purely rental then the trade you posted is reasonable.

[IntangibleBeer]

I know most folks think the Pens will trade Jake, but if they do, who on the team will play with the same fire?

He and Crosby have been the ones who consistently show up, who consistently attack, who consistently play with passion. Who do you replace him with?

For me, this isn't anything against Jake the player. This isn't 100% about Jake's age, but that is a factor.

This team needs to get younger. This team needs to more evenly distribute its scoring. This team needs to go back to its roots. Chris Kunitz wasn't a 40 goal scorer. He was an 18-25 goal scorer (who once popped off for 35). Pascal Dupuis wasn't even a top 6 player when we got him. Ruslan Fedotenko wasn't a 30 goal scorer.

For all the just play mantra and keeping his system relatively the same all these years, Sullivan has gotten away from the skilled, gritty guys like Kunitz or Fedotenko. Our last Cup team had Kunitz and Hornqvist up front, and Ian Cole and Ron Hainsey on the backend. Where are those equivalents that last 3-4 years? We had Sheary, Rust, Wilson, Kuhnhackl, Guentzel and Maatta as 6 skaters on the roster all under the age of 25. Where is that youth? DOC, Puustinen, and POJ...where the latter 2 cannot even get a regular spot in the lineup.

This team needs some more youth. This team needs at least 2 grittier, skilled players. This team needs to stop loading up the top 6 with goal scorers that don't play defense.

The timeline of this team today doesn't make sense for Guentzel to stay. We have him today at a very team favorable price, and the team hasn't taken advantage of it. At likely 4M more in cost to keep him, he's not suddenly going to put us over the top and make us a Cup contender.

This team needs to decide if everyone wants to be buddy-buddy, play with their pals, keep everyone happy, and ride off into the sunset golfing in April and May, or if they want to finally take the right approach to building a roster around the cores last few years...because the last 2 years construction has been anything but the right way.

I understand and agree with what you're saying. I would certainly like to see someone like a Kunitz or Hornvquist go to the front of the net. That isn't (and shouldn't be) Jake.

It is also time for Sullivan to realize that the uptempo game style that won Cups in 2016 and 2017 is beyond this team's ability to execute.

[KG]

Lightning came out and said Stamkos won't be traded. They will deal with his contract in the off-season. Really hope the Pens don't follow suit and do the same thing with Jake.

I would think Dubas has a deadline in place to get a contract done and if not, he has to trade him to the highest bidder. It's the right thing to do for the franchise. Can't lose him for nothing. I know there are no guarantees and the goal is to make the playoffs and maybe get on a run but they have to be careful. Jake is one of the most valuable assets we have.

[Dynasty1970]

The elephant in the room is Sully has no place in the Pens future!

[Wyopen]

I know most folks think the Pens will trade Jake, but if they do, who on the team will play with the same fire?

He and Crosby have been the ones who consistently show up, who consistently attack, who consistently play with passion. Who do you replace him with?

For me, this isn't anything against Jake the player. This isn't 100% about Jake's age, but that is a factor.

This team needs to get younger. This team needs to more evenly distribute its scoring. This team needs to go back to its roots. Chris Kunitz wasn't a 40 goal scorer. He was an 18-25 goal scorer (who once popped off for 35). Pascal Dupuis wasn't even a top 6 player when we got him. Ruslan Fedotenko wasn't a 30 goal scorer.

For all the just play mantra and keeping his system relatively the same all these years, Sullivan has gotten away from the skilled, gritty guys like Kunitz or Fedotenko. Our last Cup team had Kunitz and Hornqvist up front, and Ian Cole and Ron Hainsey on the backend. Where are those equivalents that last 3-4 years? We had Sheary, Rust, Wilson, Kuhnhackl, Guentzel and Maatta as 6 skaters on the roster all under the age of 25. Where is that youth? DOC, Puustinen, and POJ...where the latter 2 cannot even get a regular spot in the lineup.

This team needs some more youth. This team needs at least 2 grittier, skilled players. This team needs to stop loading up the top 6 with goal scorers that don't play defense.

The timeline of this team today doesn't make sense for Guentzel to stay. We have him today at a very team favorable price, and the team hasn't taken advantage of it. At likely 4M more in cost to keep him, he's not suddenly going to put us over the top and make us a Cup contender.

This team needs to decide if everyone wants to be buddy-buddy, play with their pals, keep everyone happy, and ride off into the sunset golfing in April and May, or if they want to finally take the right approach to building a roster around the cores last few years...because the last 2 years construction has been anything but the right way.

Totally agree. While I voted to trade, I think KD signs him for exactly what you said “buddy-buddy” attitude in the club house. They have an opportunity to improve the team and possibly prospects, but they’ll let this slip by. I think between Sully, Sid, and FSG, they’ll sign Jake to a ridiculous contract that binds them for the next eight years. As I stated earlier if Jake was 25yo it would be a different story, but he’ll be 30 at the start of next season. You’re right this team needs youth and a better farm system. Supposedly they are in talks with his agent again. BTW we’re not talking about William Nylander skill here.

[Pitts]

I know most folks think the Pens will trade Jake, but if they do, who on the team will play with the same fire?

He and Crosby have been the ones who consistently show up, who consistently attack, who consistently play with passion. Who do you replace him with?

What is that fire getting us right now? A barely legit playoff team. You can move Guentzel for nice assets now and re-tool the team in the summer and possibly come out better for it.

[pens_CT]

I know most folks think the Pens will trade Jake, but if they do, who on the team will play with the same fire?

He and Crosby have been the ones who consistently show up, who consistently attack, who consistently play with passion. Who do you replace him with?

What is that fire getting us right now? A barely legit playoff team. You can move Guentzel for nice assets now and re-tool the team in the summer and possibly come out better for it.

If you make the assumption that we are able to get a roster player, first round pick, and a prospect for Jake what does that mean for this or next years team? Obviously the roster player is probably going to be a 3rd line player at best, the first round pick wouldn't make a NHL impact for probably three years at minimum, and the prospect could be two years away from being on a NHL roster. I'm not saying not to trade Guentzel but its probably going to be more than a re-tool required and depends on what we do in free agency at the end of this season to make up for his lost production.

[KG]

I know most folks think the Pens will trade Jake, but if they do, who on the team will play with the same fire?

He and Crosby have been the ones who consistently show up, who consistently attack, who consistently play with passion. Who do you replace him with?

What is that fire getting us right now? A barely legit playoff team. You can move Guentzel for nice assets now and re-tool the team in the summer and possibly come out better for it.

If you make the assumption that we are able to get a roster player, first round pick, and a prospect for Jake what does that mean for this or next years team? Obviously the roster player is probably going to be a 3rd line player at best, the first round pick wouldn't make a NHL impact for probably three years at minimum, and the prospect could be two years away from being on a NHL roster. I'm not saying not to trade Guentzel but its probably going to be more than a re-tool required and depends on what we do in free agency at the end of this season to make up for his lost production.

I agree. That's why I am leaning toward the Pens only trade Jake if they get a great offer. Assuming they remain competitive and in the playoff hunt. If they fall back, then you deal him for the best package. But to deal him while they're fighting for a playoff spot they would need some help for the current roster as well.

Really a tough, interesting situation.

[FLPensFan]

I know most folks think the Pens will trade Jake, but if they do, who on the team will play with the same fire?

He and Crosby have been the ones who consistently show up, who consistently attack, who consistently play with passion. Who do you replace him with?

What is that fire getting us right now? A barely legit playoff team. You can move Guentzel for nice assets now and re-tool the team in the summer and possibly come out better for it.

If you make the assumption that we are able to get a roster player, first round pick, and a prospect for Jake what does that mean for this or next years team? Obviously the roster player is probably going to be a 3rd line player at best, the first round pick wouldn't make a NHL impact for probably three years at minimum, and the prospect could be two years away from being on a NHL roster. I'm not saying not to trade Guentzel but its probably going to be more than a re-tool required and depends on what we do in free agency at the end of this season to make up for his lost production.

I think that all really depends on the type of deal Dubas can make. You aren't going to trade Guentzel and immediately get his level of production back...but do we need to? We need to have more guys that can score with consistency, rather than a few guys that do 80% of the heavy lifting with the rest along for the ride.

If we were able to do Kuzmenko, Hoglander, and a 1st...Hoglander is a prospect, but he's already played 183 NHL games. He just turned 23. He's likely a high end 3rd liner. Kuzmenko is a solid NHL player who had 39 goals last year in his first season, but only has 8 this year. If Kuzmenko got back to high 20s or even 30 goals with us...he more aligns with what should be this teams goals. He's turns 28 in a month, and only has 1 more year left on his deal.

Or, we go the other route...trade Jake straight for picks and higher end prospects...no "NHL players" in return, and then we flip some of those assets for another player. Think Trevor Zegras here. Anaheim isn't going to want Guentzel, but if we acquire assets they want, maybe we can make that deal. Zegras would give us a good skilled player...not with Guentzel's top end...that is younger.

There are probably more deals like this out there. I think Dubas is going to bank on this season and not trade Guentzel, but if he does...I think there are moves out there that partially start us obtaining future assets, but could also give us a meaningful player back. Trading Guentzel doesn't have to mean we've thrown in on the towel on this season.

[Pitts]

Ok, I found the article I referenced before about the Pens having a bunch of cap space going into 2025:
https://theathletic.com/4931671/2023/10 ... -increase/

Highlights:
The Athletic’s Pierre LeBrun reported that NHL commissioner Gary Bettman projected a salary cap between $87 million and $88 million for next season.

The website Puck Pedia projects the Penguins to have $68.7 million committed to 14 players under contract for 2024-25.

the Penguins would have between $18.3 million and $19.3 million in cap space for 2024-25. Theoretically, they would have enough room to retain impending free agent Jake Guentzel — say, on a long-term extension that boosts his cap cost by about $2 million to $8 million — and still have more than $10 million to fill out a roster.

Dubas — along with owners Fenway Sports Group — will want to procure a long-term extension with captain Sidney Crosby

Still, for the sake of discussion, assume it does (Crosby's cap hit remains $8.7 million) and Guentzel’s cap number is $8 million on an extension. That would mean the Penguins, based on those potential signings and contractual commitments, could boast 10 players who combine to count roughly $60.9 million against the 2025-26 cap.

predicting a 4.6 percent increase — the average cap spike between the 2006-07 and 2019-20 seasons — on an $87.5 million cap for next season, the Penguins could have around $30.6 million in cap space heading into the 2025 offseason.

_____________________

Now, that's a lot of numbers, what-ifs, and perhaps hope, but it seems to me the Pens have wiggle room here. Now, what if they decide not to give Jake $8 mil per or he doesn't want that? That's a lot of dough to spread around (understanding that that last line is going into 2025 off season, not this off season).

[KG]

Ok, I found the article I referenced before about the Pens having a bunch of cap space going into 2025:
https://theathletic.com/4931671/2023/10 ... -increase/

Highlights:
The Athletic’s Pierre LeBrun reported that NHL commissioner Gary Bettman projected a salary cap between $87 million and $88 million for next season.

The website Puck Pedia projects the Penguins to have $68.7 million committed to 14 players under contract for 2024-25.

the Penguins would have between $18.3 million and $19.3 million in cap space for 2024-25. Theoretically, they would have enough room to retain impending free agent Jake Guentzel — say, on a long-term extension that boosts his cap cost by about $2 million to $8 million — and still have more than $10 million to fill out a roster.

Dubas — along with owners Fenway Sports Group — will want to procure a long-term extension with captain Sidney Crosby

Still, for the sake of discussion, assume it does (Crosby's cap hit remains $8.7 million) and Guentzel’s cap number is $8 million on an extension. That would mean the Penguins, based on those potential signings and contractual commitments, could boast 10 players who combine to count roughly $60.9 million against the 2025-26 cap.

predicting a 4.6 percent increase — the average cap spike between the 2006-07 and 2019-20 seasons — on an $87.5 million cap for next season, the Penguins could have around $30.6 million in cap space heading into the 2025 offseason.

_____________________

Now, that's a lot of numbers, what-ifs, and perhaps hope, but it seems to me the Pens have wiggle room here. Now, what if they decide not to give Jake $8 mil per or he doesn't want that? That's a lot of dough to spread around (understanding that that last line is going into 2025 off season, not this off season).

Good post....

The Pens definitely have the cap space to re-sign Jake. It's a matter of if they want to give him the type of contract he could demand. I don't think $8mill AAV is going to get it done unfortunately. Probably 8 years $72mill $9mill AAV he would sign for. If he even wants to stay here.

We have some lean years coming up here in the near distant future ladies and gents

[Pens4Life]

Trading Guentzel and getting as best possible package as we can, I dont think will turn this team into better ,not now,not in future as long as we dont change coaching stuff. So I still prefer paying him, re-sign him in 8-8.5M range, get new coach and make some trades to retool a bit and go from there. Then we have that last 2 year window if we can squeeze something out the core and supporting cast under new system,new coaches..

But Sullivan to be fired is close to counting on miracle..

[Guinness]

For me, the return for trading Jake has to be exceptional. Getting a late first round pick, a prospect and a roster player would be great... but that late first round pick is a pretty big question mark, as we have seen over the years. The prospect would have to be bona fide... not some "hmm, we think so...". And the roster player would have to be middle six at a minimum.

If these conditions are not met, and Jake is open to an 8x8, or a 9x7, then why not just re-sign him? Yeah, he'd be 37-38 at the end of these deals, but we're starting to see that the career-span of players is starting to expand, given the conditioning and medical care that players get these days.

The ONLY way I trade Jake is if the return is overwhelming. He is probably the most coveted forward on the market right now, and it would make sense for PGH to retain him, unless they can get greater value trading him than they can get signing him.

[Daniel]

For me, the return for trading Jake has to be exceptional. Getting a late first round pick, a prospect and a roster player would be great... but that late first round pick is a pretty big question mark, as we have seen over the years. The prospect would have to be bona fide... not some "hmm, we think so...". And the roster player would have to be middle six at a minimum.

If these conditions are not met, and Jake is open to an 8x8, or a 9x7, then why not just re-sign him? Yeah, he'd be 37-38 at the end of these deals, but we're starting to see that the career-span of players is starting to expand, given the conditioning and medical care that players get these days.

The ONLY way I trade Jake is if the return is overwhelming. He is probably the most coveted forward on the market right now, and it would make sense for PGH to retain him, unless they can get greater value trading him than they can get signing him.

Late 1st round pick > Jake leaving for nothing

Frankly any 3 assets under 25 will be better than most of the Penguins assets under the age of 25 and I think if Jake gets to UFA status he won't be coming back. I also don't see a reason for him to sign before he's a UFA so all in all I think it's slim that he comes back.

[FLPensFan]

Never say never, but Dubas pretty much just said never. From the Athletic (where the quotes were taken from Josh Getzoff and the GM show):

“We haven’t had any discussions with teams about Jake — anything out there is pure speculation,” general manager Kyle Dubas said on his biweekly radio program that aired Wednesday night on FM 105.9 in Pittsburgh.

“We’ll continue to go through the season here and I’ll continue to evaluate where we’re at, and either after the All-Star break or after the season we’ll do what’s best for everybody — best for the Penguins, best for Jake, and we’ll determine that together.

“That’s really it.”

[pens_CT]

Never say never, but Dubas pretty much just said never. From the Athletic (where the quotes were taken from Josh Getzoff and the GM show):

“We haven’t had any discussions with teams about Jake — anything out there is pure speculation,” general manager Kyle Dubas said on his biweekly radio program that aired Wednesday night on FM 105.9 in Pittsburgh.

“We’ll continue to go through the season here and I’ll continue to evaluate where we’re at, and either after the All-Star break or after the season we’ll do what’s best for everybody — best for the Penguins, best for Jake, and we’ll determine that together.

“That’s really it.”

Well that's typical GM speak, and I would have been shocked for him to say anything else. Sorry but waiting until after the season isn't in the best interest of the Penguins. I think he wants to see where this team is as we approach the deadline, not only where they are in the standings, but do they pass the eye test as a team who can actually win a playoff series.

[BigMcK]

If getting to the Playoffs as a low-seed team, ("we just need to win this game and the next, and two other teams to lose both of their final games, or lose by a shootout...") only to lose in the first round, year five, I am tired of the scenario as a fan. "C'mon, boys, we'll do better next season..."

If Jake can deliver an infusion of fresh via a trade, to me, why is this even up for debate? This team is not a Stanley Cup contender as is.

Crosby pulls out the best from his linemates. He will adapt to a new winger.

Or, 24-25, "Wow, the Penguins did great in January, thank goodness we are still in the playoff hunt another year older. Just glad we didn't make a trade to improve the team -- another year older."

[Wyopen]

Just think, if they sign Jake they will still have the dubious honor of being the oldest team in sports.

[Dynasty1970]

Albert Einstein: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

[Daniel]

Just think, if they sign Jake they will still have the dubious honor of being the oldest team in sports history.

Fixed it for you

[FLPensFan]

If getting to the Playoffs as a low-seed team, ("we just need to win this game and the next, and two other teams to lose both of their final games, or lose by a shootout...") only to lose in the first round, year five, I am tired of the scenario as a fan. "C'mon, boys, we'll do better next season..."

If Jake can deliver an infusion of fresh via a trade, to me, why is this even up for debate? This team is not a Stanley Cup contender as is.

Crosby pulls out the best from his linemates. He will adapt to a new winger.

Or, 24-25, "Wow, the Penguins did great in January, thank goodness we are still in the playoff hunt another year older. Just glad we didn't make a trade to improve the team -- another year older."

Maybe Bob Nutting secretly bought FSG...