James Neal's stats

[Jim]

Where is your god now Hornqvist apologists?

Hornqvist is a better overall hockey player than Neal and the Penguins are a better overall team with Hornqvist over Neal.

The inability of some people to understand that says a lot.

[Jim]

You sound like a PETA activist. It's embarrassing...

You mean using an argument like "you sound like a PETA activist"?

Everyone agrees.

[Jim]

Stop being dramatic. There's a million hypotheticals in your argument

Again I ask if people are able to read their own posts.

[tfrizz]

The Neal trade will go down in Penguins history as a head scratching moment. On top of that, it was stupid. He and Malkin had natrual chemistry, I'm talking St. Louis / Lecavalier mental telepathy type stuff. They knew were each other was on the ice without looking.

Why you would split that up - for Patrick Hornqvist and Nick Spaling is unfathomable.

I'm tired of the Hornqvist apologist on here and I'm not even looking to rehash this debate. Or the debate when I told you all that Malkin and Hornqvist would be garbage together. Look how that has transgressed. Wow, who knew.

The love affair with Hornqvist is completely asinine. He is a glorified grinder with limited vision, puck handling and play making ability - extremely limited. He scored the majority of his goals on tips ins in front of the net. Which is honorable, it's a difficult place to make a living, but it in no way overshadows James Neal's presence - being a threat from everywhere in the offensive zone.

Nor does Hornqvist skating around with wreckless abandon - or trying really hard - overshadow the offense/threat that Neal brought.

Yes, Neal lost his mind occasionally. It was great. The emotion was great and when it happened it was almost always necessary - like when he tried to decaptiate Giroux. The stupid penalty argument is one that is hawked by the Hornqvist apologists.

No longer will we logical penguin fans sit idle while you champion Hornqvist. He's average. Neal is a god damned stud. We gave Neal away - and now we have 1/2 (aside from Spaling; he lasted long) of that trade who can't get a decent shot on net while the other half is (continuing to) getting the back of the Nets dirty. Boom

Where is your god now Hornqvist apologists?

So you'd rather have just Neal than Kessel + Hornqvist? Because without the Neal trade, we've got neither of those guys and Crosby is still playing with Kunitz & Dupuis on his wings. Hell... without the Neal trade we probably don't have Bonino or Fehr, either.

How would we not have Neal?

And to answer your question, even if we couldn't have Neal and Kessel (or half of the team) - is what has Kessel or Hornqvist done lately? What has Neal done? Kessel isn't showing chemistry with anyone...

Chris Kunitz also made the Olypmic squad off the stick of Crosby. Hornqvist scoring more goals last year means nothing when you have an understanding of what kind of players both Neal and Hornqvist are. Neal wasn't playing with a superstar center last year, nor is he this year.

Stop being dramatic. There's a million hypotheticals in your argument

You Hornqvist apologists were quick to raise a new counter argument. Was this one next on the list you guys made up in your weekly conference calls or did you just pick this one at random?

What makes you think Neal would do any better here, right now, than Kessel, Hornqvist, Crosby, and every other Penguin is? The Pens' problem, offensively, isn't the personnel. It's that they're playing a system that is fully committed to defense.

I also think you're selling Ribeiro very short. He's been one of the best pure playmaking centres in the NHL over the past decade. While he's not a Crosby or a Malkin, the guy is a star. He has been a point per game player more than once in his career, which means he's a lot better offensively than a huge portion of the NHL, and he's produced with incredible consistency even when people discounted him after the Start bought out his contract; he went on to put up 49 points in 48 games for the Capitals in the lockout-shortened season after that.

On a career scale, Ribeiro ranks 52nd among all active players in career points per game at 0.76. He moves 43rd if you discount players with a small sample sizes (eg: less than 82 games). To put that in context, Phil Kessel has a career average of 0.78 points per game. James Neal's career aveage is 0.74 points per game. So don't try to pretend Neal is playing with nobody in Nashville.

[Chirpin' Grinder]

If I recall many folks were outrage by Neal's playing on the edge of being dirty. The one year - last year, he had a few suspensions. Like all players, goal scorers, streaky. Many trades/moves to be question; I still hate stu barnes for barnaby.

I contend the penguins need a couple players on the edge , who may on occasion scare a player.

With Neal there were off ice issues as well, which everyone seems to have forgotten about.

The Barnes for Barnaby deal was because Barnes had a bonus laden contract and he got something like a $3M bump if he hit 25 goals, which he was well on pace to do at the time of the trade.

There were no off ice issues. In fact, Neal was at teammates wedding and did a Pens charity event the weekend he was dealt. Those were rumors whispered by Pens PR and gobbled by the gullible.

[Chirpin' Grinder]

Where is your god now Hornqvist apologists?

Hornqvist is a better overall hockey player than Neal and the Penguins are a better overall team with Hornqvist over Neal.

The inability of some people to understand that says a lot.

Hornqvist is better within ten feet of the net. Neal is better everywhere else on the rink.

Neal is a better puck handler, better passer, better shooter, better back checker and much better skater.

And the Pens haven't been better in any facet since the deal. They went from a 2 seed to an 8.

They went from winning a round and 7 playoff games to losing In the first round in 5. Tangibly worse.

[Tim Thomasen]

If I recall many folks were outrage by Neal's playing on the edge of being dirty. The one year - last year, he had a few suspensions. Like all players, goal scorers, streaky. Many trades/moves to be question; I still hate stu barnes for barnaby.

I contend the penguins need a couple players on the edge , who may on occasion scare a player.

With Neal there were off ice issues as well, which everyone seems to have forgotten about.

The Barnes for Barnaby deal was because Barnes had a bonus laden contract and he got something like a $3M bump if he hit 25 goals, which he was well on pace to do at the time of the trade.

There were no off ice issues. In fact, Neal was at teammates wedding and did a Pens charity event the weekend he was dealt. Those were rumors whispered by Pens PR and gobbled by the gullible.

Yeah that's always a great way to get people to buy into your argument. Call them gullible just because they don't agree with you. Way to go!

None of this changes the fact that Hornqvist brings a different way this team scores by being able to score goals by going to the net, Neal never did that. Not to mention we now have a guy who can snip the puck in Kessel, so your argument.

BTW what was Neals numbers in the playoffs again? Oh yes pretty poor last time I checked. You want to keep a guy on the roster who can score 40 and does nothing in the playoffs? We have plenty of those so no thanks.

Funny how people forget that. Let it go, the team is better off without him.

[tfrizz]

Where is your god now Hornqvist apologists?

Hornqvist is a better overall hockey player than Neal and the Penguins are a better overall team with Hornqvist over Neal.

The inability of some people to understand that says a lot.

Hornqvist is better within ten feet of the net. Neal is better everywhere else on the rink.

Neal is a better puck handler, better passer, better shooter, better back checker and much better skater.

And the Pens haven't been better in any facet since the deal. They went from a 2 seed to an 8.

They went from winning a round and 7 playoff games to losing In the first round in 5. Tangibly worse.

I'd argue that Kunitz transforming from point-per-game player 3 years ago to a 4th liner now is a much bigger factor than swapping Neal and Hornqvist. Iin case you think I'm exaggerating in calling Kunitz a 4th liner, he's managed to tally a grand total of 8 goals and 12 assists in 58 games since the calendar turned to 2015, 4 goals and 6 assists in his last 41 games, and 3 goals and 2 assists in his last 20 games.

And before the temptation to say "well he's not producing because Crosby's not" sets in, here are Sid numbers for those same periods of time: 20 goals and 33 assists in 56 games in 2015; 14 goals and 21 assists in his last 41 games; and 6 goals and 7 assists in his last 20 games. Crosby's not producing like he normally does, there's no doubt about that, but he's still massively out-paced Kunitz's production.

So when you have guys like Kunitz, playing at the level of a 4th liner (or maybe a below average 3rd liner if you give him the benefit of the doubt) as a mainstay in the top 6, you're going to struggle.

[since1970]

When did James Neal become part Gretzky/Gillies/Gainey? Leave Neal in Nashville. Teams aren't shaking cause players like Neal or Hornqvist are coming to town, they're both spokes in the team wheel, and play totally different games, it's not like we traded Mats Naslund for Alex Stoyanov here....

[darkstar57]

Are we really back to talking about Neal? Seriously?

We could have Jesus Christ on the wing and we'd still struggling to score goals.

The problem is not the Neal/Hornqivst swap, we need our centers to player like the best players in the world that they are then the offense will come. Malkin is getting back to that level, crosby not so much

[DeadPuck]

Are we really back to talking about Neal? Seriously?

We could have Jesus Christ on the wing and we'd still struggling to score goals.

The problem is not the Neal/Hornqivst swap, we need our centers to player like the best players in the world that they are then the offense will come. Malkin is getting back to that level, crosby not so much

The problem is Hornqvist sucks at anything that isn't in a 10 foot diameter of the net. That's being pretty liberal too, I would say more like a 5 foot permiter of the net.

I can't wait until he's moved to the third line, like I said he would be (inevitably) when I said he and Malkin were a hot pile of stool together.

He would actually thrive in a third line role.

That will be an interesting conversation.

[tfrizz]

The problem is Hornqvist sucks at anything that isn't in a 10 foot diameter of the net. That's being pretty liberal too, I would say more like a 5 foot permiter of the net.

Strange... according to sportingcharts.com's shot tracking data, their average shot distance is less than 3 feet apart. Neal's average is 28.09ft and Hornqvist's is 25.38ft. Kessel, in comparison, averages 32.19ft.

[DeadPuck]

The problem is Hornqvist sucks at anything that isn't in a 10 foot diameter of the net. That's being pretty liberal too, I would say more like a 5 foot permiter of the net.

Strange... according to sportingcharts.com's shot tracking data, their average shot distance is less than 3 feet apart. Neal's average is 28.09ft and Hornqvist's is 25.38ft. Kessel, in comparison, averages 32.19ft.

How many of Neals shots connect versus Hornqvist. Can we compare Bobby Farnhams shots to those players too? I'm super interested in where everyone shoots from...

I'm more interested in where they are effective.

[tfrizz]

The problem is Hornqvist sucks at anything that isn't in a 10 foot diameter of the net. That's being pretty liberal too, I would say more like a 5 foot permiter of the net.

Strange... according to sportingcharts.com's shot tracking data, their average shot distance is less than 3 feet apart. Neal's average is 28.09ft and Hornqvist's is 25.38ft. Kessel, in comparison, averages 32.19ft.

How many of Neals shots connect versus Hornqvist. Can we compare Bobby Farnhams shots to those players too? I'm super interested in where everyone shoots from...

I'm more interested in where they are effective.

Within the sample size I used (the 2014-15 season + playoffs), Neal scored on 11.02% of his shots and Hornqvist scored on 11.39%.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/icetr ... 2strength=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Skatingpen]

The Neal trade will go down in Penguins history as a head scratching moment. On top of that, it was stupid. He and Malkin had natrual chemistry, I'm talking St. Louis / Lecavalier mental telepathy type stuff. They knew were each other was on the ice without looking.

Why you would split that up - for Patrick Hornqvist and Nick Spaling is unfathomable.

I'm tired of the Hornqvist apologist on here and I'm not even looking to rehash this debate. Or the debate when I told you all that Malkin and Hornqvist would be garbage together. Look how that has transgressed. Wow, who knew.

The love affair with Hornqvist is completely asinine. He is a glorified grinder with limited vision, puck handling and play making ability - extremely limited. He scored the majority of his goals on tips ins in front of the net. Which is honorable, it's a difficult place to make a living, but it in no way overshadows James Neal's presence - being a threat from everywhere in the offensive zone.

Nor does Hornqvist skating around with wreckless abandon - or trying really hard - overshadow the offense/threat that Neal brought.

Yes, Neal lost his mind occasionally. It was great. The emotion was great and when it happened it was almost always necessary - like when he tried to decaptiate Giroux. The stupid penalty argument is one that is hawked by the Hornqvist apologists.

No longer will we logical penguin fans sit idle while you champion Hornqvist. He's average. Neal is a god damned stud. We gave Neal away - and now we have 1/2 (aside from Spaling; he lasted long) of that trade who can't get a decent shot on net while the other half is (continuing to) getting the back of the Nets dirty. Boom

Where is your god now Hornqvist apologists?

So you'd rather have just Neal than Kessel + Hornqvist? Because without the Neal trade, we've got neither of those guys and Crosby is still playing with Kunitz & Dupuis on his wings. Hell... without the Neal trade we probably don't have Bonino or Fehr, either.

Hornqvist recorded more goals and more assists than Neal last season despite playing in fewer games. Don't act like he's just been a waste of space with the Penguins - he was absolutely fantastic, even after the entire team's offense dried up, and even playing through broken ribs at the end of the season and in the playoffs. He's the one forward who, night after night, goes out there and gives it his all. On a team plagues with questionable efforts, that's a huge deal.

Deadpuck, I am just curious not trying to make problems, but how come when you replied to tfrizz you quoted and responded to everything but their last paragraph? I am curious your thoughts on that last paragraph.

Also, I was one of the ones that asked that we give Hornqvist time with Malkin before we said they stunk together, I apologize, you were right and I was definitely wrong. They did stink together.

[DeadPuck]

The problem is Hornqvist sucks at anything that isn't in a 10 foot diameter of the net. That's being pretty liberal too, I would say more like a 5 foot permiter of the net.

Strange... according to sportingcharts.com's shot tracking data, their average shot distance is less than 3 feet apart. Neal's average is 28.09ft and Hornqvist's is 25.38ft. Kessel, in comparison, averages 32.19ft.

How many of Neals shots connect versus Hornqvist. Can we compare Bobby Farnhams shots to those players too? I'm super interested in where everyone shoots from...

I'm more interested in where they are effective.

Within the sample size I used (the 2014-15 season + playoffs), Neal scored on 11.02% of his shots and Hornqvist scored on 11.39%.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/icetr ... 2strength=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So you found a sample size that supports your argument.

Let's get real, who is the offensive threat from the entire offensive zone and who is the threat in front of the net?

[Skatingpen]

I wasn't completely serious about all those proposals. No way Rychel is ready for the top six just yet.

As far as Shattenkirk for Hornqvist? I don't thin it's likely, but I also don't think it's out of the realm of possibility. For one, I don't think the Pens want to move Hornqvist and I don't know what the asking price would be for Shattenkirk.

Rychel is coming off of a pretty serious concussion and can't crack the Columbus line-up with Johansen out.

Pouliot is the Pens only D prospect. Like, in the entire organ-eye-zation. How does trading him for a forward make any sense if you take even a cursory glance at the Pens depth chart??

Rather than Shattenkirk, I'd like to see the Pens target Jay Bouwmeester.

Kunitz and Pouliot for Bouwmeester with some salary retained could make sense for both sides.

Man CG, I was about to ask if you had been drinking.....I would have bet a lot of money that Bouwmeester was as old as Scuderi, it feels like he has been in the league forever. I cannot believe he is only 27.

[DeadPuck]

The Neal trade will go down in Penguins history as a head scratching moment. On top of that, it was stupid. He and Malkin had natrual chemistry, I'm talking St. Louis / Lecavalier mental telepathy type stuff. They knew were each other was on the ice without looking.

Why you would split that up - for Patrick Hornqvist and Nick Spaling is unfathomable.

I'm tired of the Hornqvist apologist on here and I'm not even looking to rehash this debate. Or the debate when I told you all that Malkin and Hornqvist would be garbage together. Look how that has transgressed. Wow, who knew.

The love affair with Hornqvist is completely asinine. He is a glorified grinder with limited vision, puck handling and play making ability - extremely limited. He scored the majority of his goals on tips ins in front of the net. Which is honorable, it's a difficult place to make a living, but it in no way overshadows James Neal's presence - being a threat from everywhere in the offensive zone.

Nor does Hornqvist skating around with wreckless abandon - or trying really hard - overshadow the offense/threat that Neal brought.

Yes, Neal lost his mind occasionally. It was great. The emotion was great and when it happened it was almost always necessary - like when he tried to decaptiate Giroux. The stupid penalty argument is one that is hawked by the Hornqvist apologists.

No longer will we logical penguin fans sit idle while you champion Hornqvist. He's average. Neal is a god damned stud. We gave Neal away - and now we have 1/2 (aside from Spaling; he lasted long) of that trade who can't get a decent shot on net while the other half is (continuing to) getting the back of the Nets dirty. Boom

Where is your god now Hornqvist apologists?

So you'd rather have just Neal than Kessel + Hornqvist? Because without the Neal trade, we've got neither of those guys and Crosby is still playing with Kunitz & Dupuis on his wings. Hell... without the Neal trade we probably don't have Bonino or Fehr, either.

Hornqvist recorded more goals and more assists than Neal last season despite playing in fewer games. Don't act like he's just been a waste of space with the Penguins - he was absolutely fantastic, even after the entire team's offense dried up, and even playing through broken ribs at the end of the season and in the playoffs. He's the one forward who, night after night, goes out there and gives it his all. On a team plagues with questionable efforts, that's a huge deal.

Deadpuck, I am just curious not trying to make problems, but how come when you replied to tfrizz you quoted and responded to everything but their last paragraph? I am curious your thoughts on that last paragraph.

Also, I was one of the ones that asked that we give Hornqvist time with Malkin before we said they stunk together, I apologize, you were right and I was definitely wrong. They did stink together.

Bobby Farnham gives it his all too.

I did address it, Hornqvist was playing with Sidney Crosby while Neal was playing with a revolving door of nobodies, potential, or has beens.

It doesn't matter currently does it, or when you look at the big picture.

Hornqvist will spend significant time on the third line this year. Signed, sealed and ready for a bank deposit - take it there.

I won't guarantee a trade but if he continues to do nothing, you can start adding him to the conversation we all love to have about Perron etc.


Honestly, it's been a fun conversation, but I'm spot on. I'm not always spot on, but I'm spot on here. This mentality that "Hornqvist is heart and soul or blue collar" and coincendantlly causing people to give him a pass both with his play and the terrible trade he was involved in - is unbelievable.

Talent trumps effort - in the words of Mark Madden. Make no mistake, James Neal has more talent in his left foot then Hornqvist does as a whole.

With that said, we'll continue to try to vilify Neal any time it's brought up because we can't justify the trade. Yet we'll turn around and blow snot over Rutherford and a trade he completed by swapping two 4-5 defensemen.

[Pruezy11881]

Yeah moving on...

Even though the team hasn't played anywhere near their potential, they are 4-1 in the last five games. Tonight should be a pretty good barometer for the Pens.

[Jim]

If I recall many folks were outrage by Neal's playing on the edge of being dirty. The one year - last year, he had a few suspensions. Like all players, goal scorers, streaky. Many trades/moves to be question; I still hate stu barnes for barnaby.

I contend the penguins need a couple players on the edge , who may on occasion scare a player.

With Neal there were off ice issues as well, which everyone seems to have forgotten about.

The Barnes for Barnaby deal was because Barnes had a bonus laden contract and he got something like a $3M bump if he hit 25 goals, which he was well on pace to do at the time of the trade.

There were no off ice issues. In fact, Neal was at teammates wedding and did a Pens charity event the weekend he was dealt. Those were rumors whispered by Pens PR and gobbled by the gullible.

You actually got me to laugh out loud.

[Jim]

Neal is better everywhere else on the rink.

Maybe we are talking about a different Neal... I am talking about James Neal that played for the Stars, then for the Penguins and now for Nashville. I have NO idea what Neal you are referring to.

[Chirpin' Grinder]

If I recall many folks were outrage by Neal's playing on the edge of being dirty. The one year - last year, he had a few suspensions. Like all players, goal scorers, streaky. Many trades/moves to be question; I still hate stu barnes for barnaby.

I contend the penguins need a couple players on the edge , who may on occasion scare a player.

With Neal there were off ice issues as well, which everyone seems to have forgotten about.

The Barnes for Barnaby deal was because Barnes had a bonus laden contract and he got something like a $3M bump if he hit 25 goals, which he was well on pace to do at the time of the trade.

There were no off ice issues. In fact, Neal was at teammates wedding and did a Pens charity event the weekend he was dealt. Those were rumors whispered by Pens PR and gobbled by the gullible.

Yeah that's always a great way to get people to buy into your argument. Call them gullible just because they don't agree with you. Way to go!

None of this changes the fact that Hornqvist brings a different way this team scores by being able to score goals by going to the net, Neal never did that. Not to mention we now have a guy who can snip the puck in Kessel, so your argument.

BTW what was Neals numbers in the playoffs again? Oh yes pretty poor last time I checked. You want to keep a guy on the roster who can score 40 and does nothing in the playoffs? We have plenty of those so no thanks.

Funny how people forget that. Let it go, the team is better off without him.

Actually I was calling them gullible because they buy into and then mindlessly parrot unsubstantiated rumours. The burden of proof is always on the accuser. There was never a specific allegation, let alone any proof, that Neal had "off-ice issues". He was scapegoated and foolishly traded for a lesser player. There hasn't been a semblance of chemistry on the top two lines since.

You can say that Hornqvist scores in different ways, but with him the team now scores less. They were also a weaker playoff team with Hornqvist rather than Neal. Last season, Neal had a far better playoff than Hornqvist and he wasn't playing with "the best player in the world". There is no evidence to support the theory that they are a better team without Neal.

As you admit, they have had plenty of players disappoint in the playoffs. Neal would not have been the one I'd have sent packing.

[Jim]

The problem is Hornqvist sucks at anything that isn't in a 10 foot diameter of the net. That's being pretty liberal too, I would say more like a 5 foot permiter of the net.

Strange... according to sportingcharts.com's shot tracking data, their average shot distance is less than 3 feet apart. Neal's average is 28.09ft and Hornqvist's is 25.38ft. Kessel, in comparison, averages 32.19ft.

How many of Neals shots connect versus Hornqvist. Can we compare Bobby Farnhams shots to those players too? I'm super interested in where everyone shoots from...

I'm more interested in where they are effective.

Within the sample size I used (the 2014-15 season + playoffs), Neal scored on 11.02% of his shots and Hornqvist scored on 11.39%.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/icetr ... 2strength=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

0 for 2... time to move the target again...

[Chirpin' Grinder]

Neal is better everywhere else on the rink.

Maybe we are talking about a different Neal... I am talking about James Neal that played for the Stars, then for the Penguins and now for Nashville. I have NO idea what Neal you are referring to.

No, that's the right Neal. The Neal that shoots better than Hornqvist. The Neal that skates better than Hornqvist. The Neal that passes better than Hornqvist. The Neal that can carry the puck through the neutral zone much better than Hornqvist. And the Neal that is a better back checker than Hornqvist.

You know, the Neal that has 9 points in 8 games playing with 35 year old Mike Fisher. That Neal.

Maybe Hornqvist will finally get that big goose egg off of his stat sheet tonight.

[Jim]

The problem is Hornqvist sucks at anything that isn't in a 10 foot diameter of the net. That's being pretty liberal too, I would say more like a 5 foot permiter of the net.

Strange... according to sportingcharts.com's shot tracking data, their average shot distance is less than 3 feet apart. Neal's average is 28.09ft and Hornqvist's is 25.38ft. Kessel, in comparison, averages 32.19ft.

How many of Neals shots connect versus Hornqvist. Can we compare Bobby Farnhams shots to those players too? I'm super interested in where everyone shoots from...

I'm more interested in where they are effective.

Within the sample size I used (the 2014-15 season + playoffs), Neal scored on 11.02% of his shots and Hornqvist scored on 11.39%.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/icetr ... 2strength=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So you found a sample size that supports your argument.

Let's get real, who is the offensive threat from the entire offensive zone and who is the threat in front of the net?

TARGET MOVED!!! Yep, that just happened.

tfrizz, how DARE you use LAST SEASON'S stats to support your argument? How dare you??? This is an '81 Honda!!!