The mayor of Broward County suggested Thursday that the Panthers could leave Florida. New round of rumors about the return of the Nordiques?
"We will pay anyway if the Panthers go. That is why we have engaged a consultant to have the option to let them go, "wrote Mayor Barbara Sharief Thursday on her Twitter account.
The leaders of the Florida Panthers have been asking for months Broward County to grant them a rent reduction of $ 80 million for the remainder of their lease at BB & T Center in Sunrise. The arena, which is owned by the county, is sealed by a debt of U.S. $ 250 million.
BSharief, @bestmom39 wrote:we will pay if panthers leave but that's why we asked for a consultant to have that option to let them leave
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BSharief, @bestmom39 wrote:@browardpolitics never said I would give more money to panthers BBT is a county owned facility w/250mill debt regardless
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The team wants its share of the debt - $ 4.5 million per year - paid by a tourist tax. But revenues from this tax are already budgeted for the revitalization of beaches and tourism promotion.
The board has hired a consultant to shine in his decision. Mayor and a majority number of councilors were rather in favor of the granting of the aid so far. But on Thursday, the tone of Mrs. Sharief had changed.
"I never said that I would give more money to the Panthers. We expect the consultant's findings, "she has written. "We have options if we do not reach an agreement, then the consultant will tell us what is the best interest of the county."
After the Pens' arena issues, I always feel some sympathy for fans of teams that are rumored to move, but having been to a couple Pens v Panthers games in the last two years, I'd be OK with the Panthers moving.
The arena is in a crappy location.
The crowds at the games are lethargic (aside from drunk yinzers).
There is really nothing about South Florida that makes you think of hockey, if you're not already a fan. I lived in Tampa for a while too, and there at least, there seem to be more northern transplants who like hockey, and the arena is right downtown, so it's easier for the Lightning to be part of the sports/entertainment conversation. I feel like South Florida is much more influenced by Latin America and the Caribbean, and with the arena out in the middle of nowhere, and the team largely unsuccessful, the Panthers just aren't part of the public consciousness down here.
The locals are also really fed up with any government funds going to sports teams after the Marlins got a lot of perks to build their stadium (not too sure entirely what went on with that, but I do know it's still a real sore point).
The population of the Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-West Palm Beach metro area is huge, around 5-6 million, many of them rich ex-northerners. The area is about 20 miles wide and around 60 miles long on the coast (squeezed between the ocean and the Everglades swamp). Unlike the new Marlins ballpark and to a lesser degree the Dolphin’s stadium, the Panther’s arena is situated near the midpoint of the length. So the arena is in a good location.
What the Panthers desperately need is what the Pens desperately needed and got in the mid-1980’s and what the Blackhawks desperately needed and got several years ago, some major stars followed by winning seasons and some good Cup runs. The Panthers WOULD be successful long term, on the ice and financially, if they get lucky in that regard. However, there may not be much time left for it to happen.
This is all posturing between Broward County and the Florida Panthers. The Panthers are not going anywhere. There are several issues involved in this, mainly the attendance of the team, Wayne Huizinga, and the Miami Dolphins. Something will get worked out, as the Panthers are the largest tenant there. No other sports teams play there, which would make it even more of a money pit if the Panthers left.
On the attendance side, some of the revenue the county makes back from the team was tied to attendance, and, well, their hasn't been much. People outside South Florida just want to blame it on being a non-hockey market, when in reality, they have had god awful teams. When I moved to FL in 1998, they had Pavel Bure. The place was packed, fans were always on their feet every time he touched the puck. When he was gone, so went attendance. The next movement in Florida was Weiss and Horton, which never panned out to be the superstars the Panthers wanted. Luongo was a great pickup and most popular player, but hard to have a goalie as your teams #1 star. Mike Keenan trading him to Vancouver was the nail in the coffin. The Panthers have a really solid young core, and are just about to become a solid, perennial playoff contender.
On the team side, it would not surprise me one bit if the team loses money due to past deal with Wayne Huizinga. He owned the Dolphins, Marlins, and Panthers at different periods of time. When he sold the Marlins, they still played in Dolphins Stadium. Huizinga kept all the parking and concession money in the deal. Marlins had to pay rent to stay in Dolphin Stadium, and got no profits. I don't know the details with the Panthers, but I wouldn't doubt if something similar was done when he either sold the team, or with the contract he negotiated with Broward to move from downtown Miami to the now BB&T center. The man knew how to make his money, screwing the team and public in the process.
The Dolphins and Marlins play a bit into this too, even though they are Dade county. The Marlins, remember the bad deal I mention above, swindled the county into building them a new stadium in downtown Miami. In doing so, they eliminated 90% of palm beach fans from driving that far to the games, but, after crying about how much money they lost before the new stadium, and promising to be better afterwards, they are still one of the lowest payrolls in baseball, and are now onto crying foul about how bad their TV deal is and using that is an excuse. There is a lot more to this than I care to write about it, but bottom line is none of the South Florida counties are willing to give up money to sports teams after some of the recent mistakes they have made with Marlins, Panthers, and Dolphins public use of money.
Not sure why anyone would question the location of the arena, as it is in a perfect spot. It is centrally located in Broward County, right next to a major highway that can easily get you to Dade and Palm Beach counties. Plus, it is right next to Sawgrass Mills Mall, one of the largest outlet malls in the country. Tons of shops and restaurants in the area. When it was in downtown Miami, sure, you had the city around you, but it was also in a high crime area, no parking, and kept Broward and Palm Beach fans away, as nobody wants to leave their house at 3pm to make a 7pm game. The traffic is that bad. It's why I will only go to Marlins games on weekends, because weekday traffic for a 7pm game is too much to deal with.
Where I think the Panthers (and many other NHL clubs including the Penguins) went wrong is by creating Club Red. Too many sports teams are trying to cater to the upper class and businessmen, and pricing fans out of a game. If I go to a game, I want to watch hockey, not pay an extra $80 for my seat so I can go hang out in a bar/club during the game. In the Penguins case, they have enough demand for their tickets that it isn't as big of an issue, but in Florida, where attendance isn't as good, increasing ticket prices so you can add clubs and bars is just absurd to me. Cut all that crap out, reduce your prices and you'll fill your seats. Don't need the bars and fancy things to make more, you do that with attendance.
I've been a hockey fan since about 1980. I'm back in PA for the week and was just having a similar conversation with my father. We used to always go to games. Never could afford season tickets, but we probably went to 10 or more games a year. Moved from PA in 1998, but hadn't been to a Pens game since probably 1995. Out of the 4 major sports, I go to MLB games more than anything. Why? Because it is the only sport where the prices are reasonable to take a family of four to a game on a middle class income.
FLPensFan wrote: Not sure why anyone would question the location of the arena, as it is in a perfect spot. It is centrally located in Broward County, right next to a major highway that can easily get you to Dade and Palm Beach counties. Plus, it is right next to Sawgrass Mills Mall, one of the largest outlet malls in the country. Tons of shops and restaurants in the area. When it was in downtown Miami, sure, you had the city around you, but it was also in a high crime area, no parking, and kept Broward and Palm Beach fans away, as nobody wants to leave their house at 3pm to make a 7pm game. The traffic is that bad. It's why I will only go to Marlins games on weekends, because weekday traffic for a 7pm game is too much to deal with.
I guess it's a matter of perspective. I live part of the year in downtown Miami, and it's terrible trying to get out of downtown at rush hour to make a 7:00 game in Broward. I would guess the location deters people who live in downtown, Miami Beach, or Coral Gables from going to games.
But I'm not sure these areas have many hockey fans anyhow. The Panthers are basically a non-entity here in downtown. You see plenty of Heat ads/jerseys, some for the Marlins, a little for the Dolphins and UM, and then you see more soccer jerseys and ads for upcoming soccer friendlies than anything hockey related. I just saw an article in the NYT yesterday talking about how the boom in downtown is being fueled by wealthy South Americans and claiming that now the population of Dade county is 65% Latino. I don't want to assume too much, but probably not your most likely hockey fans.
FLPensFan wrote: Not sure why anyone would question the location of the arena, as it is in a perfect spot. It is centrally located in Broward County, right next to a major highway that can easily get you to Dade and Palm Beach counties. Plus, it is right next to Sawgrass Mills Mall, one of the largest outlet malls in the country. Tons of shops and restaurants in the area. When it was in downtown Miami, sure, you had the city around you, but it was also in a high crime area, no parking, and kept Broward and Palm Beach fans away, as nobody wants to leave their house at 3pm to make a 7pm game. The traffic is that bad. It's why I will only go to Marlins games on weekends, because weekday traffic for a 7pm game is too much to deal with.
I guess it's a matter of perspective. I live part of the year in downtown Miami, and it's terrible trying to get out of downtown at rush hour to make a 7:00 game in Broward. I would guess the location deters people who live in downtown, Miami Beach, or Coral Gables from going to games.
But I'm not sure these areas have many hockey fans anyhow. The Panthers are basically a non-entity here in downtown. You see plenty of Heat ads/jerseys, some for the Marlins, a little for the Dolphins and UM, and then you see more soccer jerseys and ads for upcoming soccer friendlies than anything hockey related. I just saw an article in the NYT yesterday talking about how the boom in downtown is being fueled by wealthy South Americans and claiming that now the population of Dade county is 65% Latino. I don't want to assume too much, but probably not your most likely hockey fans.
As someone who's never been to Miami and is completely ignorant on the subject (but adding his opinion anyway), I just get the feeling that Miamians (Miamins? Mims?) just don't care about sports. Even when the Marlins won their two WSs it always seemed like no one cared (3rd to last in the league in attendance in 2003 with a sub 50% rate). Also, everyone knows about the fans leaving the NBA Finals in game 6 last year too. Dolphins also draw the lowest percentage of fans at 89%.
If the Panthers would win they would get fan support down there. No one in this city(media.. radio, tv, print etc) gave any crap about the Pens when they were awful for their most recent 6 or 7 year stretch. Fan support was virtually non-existent as well. Then they draft crosby start winning and they sell out 300+ games in a row.
I mean the Miami Heat down there will go back to being an after thought and have little support now that Lebron is gone, cause they sure didn't get hardly any support prior to his arrival.
Florida has lots of transplants, so unless they are winning on a regular basis its gonna be hard to keep the locals in tune with the team and rooting for them.
TLDR version.. if the Panthers won a consistent regular basis they would sell out most nights with easy more than likely. Winning solves lots of "fan" issues.
FLPensFan wrote: Not sure why anyone would question the location of the arena, as it is in a perfect spot. It is centrally located in Broward County, right next to a major highway that can easily get you to Dade and Palm Beach counties. Plus, it is right next to Sawgrass Mills Mall, one of the largest outlet malls in the country. Tons of shops and restaurants in the area. When it was in downtown Miami, sure, you had the city around you, but it was also in a high crime area, no parking, and kept Broward and Palm Beach fans away, as nobody wants to leave their house at 3pm to make a 7pm game. The traffic is that bad. It's why I will only go to Marlins games on weekends, because weekday traffic for a 7pm game is too much to deal with.
I guess it's a matter of perspective. I live part of the year in downtown Miami, and it's terrible trying to get out of downtown at rush hour to make a 7:00 game in Broward. I would guess the location deters people who live in downtown, Miami Beach, or Coral Gables from going to games.
But I'm not sure these areas have many hockey fans anyhow. The Panthers are basically a non-entity here in downtown. You see plenty of Heat ads/jerseys, some for the Marlins, a little for the Dolphins and UM, and then you see more soccer jerseys and ads for upcoming soccer friendlies than anything hockey related. I just saw an article in the NYT yesterday talking about how the boom in downtown is being fueled by wealthy South Americans and claiming that now the population of Dade county is 65% Latino. I don't want to assume too much, but probably not your most likely hockey fans.
As someone who's never been to Miami and is completely ignorant on the subject (but adding his opinion anyway), I just get the feeling that Miamians (Miamins? Mims?) just don't care about sports. Even when the Marlins won their two WSs it always seemed like no one cared (3rd to last in the league in attendance in 2003 with a sub 50% rate). Also, everyone knows about the fans leaving the NBA Finals in game 6 last year too. Dolphins also draw the lowest percentage of fans at 89%.
oh and as a side note, the 2003 Marlins roster was awesome so they had no excuse to not go to the games (Pudge, Dontrelle Willis, rookie Miggy, Beckett, etc.)
The business ower in FLA knows what he is doing, don't be suprised if he is suddenly seen having dinner in Quebec. Ala Mario in KC. He will get a lower lease rate and the Mayor will be kissing his butt to stay in FLA.
If not i would welcome anything that would bring another team to Canada. I never did like the NHLs push into the sun belt.
Question: if they do move to Quebec, would you swap Colombus and Tampa in their divisions or ro you just keep things the same way?
no name wrote:The business ower in FLA knows what he is doing, don't be suprised if he is suddenly seen having dinner in Quebec. Ala Mario in KC. He will get a lower lease rate and the Mayor will be kissing his butt to stay in FLA.
If not i would welcome anything that would bring another team to Canada. I never did like the NHLs push into the sun belt.
Question: if they do move to Quebec, would you swap Colombus and Tampa in their divisions or ro you just keep things the same way?
I wouldn't swap anything. Columbus having a rivalry with Pittsburgh is helping them.
skullman80 wrote:
Florida has lots of transplants, so unless they are winning on a regular basis its gonna be hard to keep the locals in tune with the team and rooting for them.
this is something the NHL has yet to learn. this was a major problem in Atlanta. too many transplants that wouldn't give up their childhood team. hell, I'm a native Atlantan and wouldn't give up the Pens that I'd been cheering for for years. I tried, I really did but the Thrashers never gave me a reason to cheer for them over the Pens even in those god-awful years in the early 2000's.
Hearts say move them, but when you look at the ability to support financially, Florida's economy outpaces Canada's most productive province by a pretty big margin, and is almost double that of Quebec.
I went to the last Penguins game vs the Thrashers (which coincidentally was the last ever Thrasher game).
I just bought tickets for the Pens vs. Panthers on 12/22.
Coincidence, gosh I hope not.
Moving to Seattle or Quebec solves a couple issues. Would prefer seattle though to get 15 teams back to each conference and then swap Tampa and Columbus and put the division names back to Northeast and Atlantic.
I'll be pissed if the Panthers leave; I love being able to go to two Pens games a year.
South Florida is a tough market for sports (many other activities to occupy people's time means sports can take a back seat when the team is no good), but I still think the NHL would be stupid to leave. The area continues to grow in population, and there is enough of a fan base to at least keep the Panthers afloat. However, they are really barking up the wrong tree trying to get any sort of public funding right now. You need have a sense of timing. For those of you not from the area, I can't stress enough how angry the populous is at the Marlins fiasco. A couple billionaires basically defrauded the public out of a half a billion dollars; that has a way of getting under people's skin. There is simply no appetite for additional public funding to sports franchises right now. The Panthers have a great arena, competative lease terms, and at least a marginal base of support despite sucking hard for over a decade. No, they aren't getting 17,000 fans per game, but they would draw well if they could put a competative team on the ice.
They also finally have a little hope buidling with a solid core of young players; it would really be a shame to send them packing now.
DelPen wrote:Moving to Seattle or Quebec solves a couple issues. Would prefer seattle though to get 15 teams back to each conference and then swap Tampa and Columbus and put the division names back to Northeast and Atlantic.
I would guess if the NHL expanded to 32 teams they would prefere to have one expansion team in the east and one in the west. So to prepare for that moving FLA to SEA gives each confrence to 15 then when you are ready for expansion you add Que and (Las Vegas or Portland). Then i guess they don't need to seperate via east and west confrences and they can have 4 confrences like they wanted origionally.
DelPen wrote:Moving to Seattle or Quebec solves a couple issues. Would prefer seattle though to get 15 teams back to each conference and then swap Tampa and Columbus and put the division names back to Northeast and Atlantic.
I would guess if the NHL expanded to 32 teams they would prefere to have one expansion team in the east and one in the west. So to prepare for that moving FLA to SEA gives each confrence to 15 then when you are ready for expansion you add Que and (Las Vegas or Portland). Then i guess they don't need to seperate via east and west confrences and they can have 4 confrences like they wanted origionally.
If all that would go down i agree with you swapping Colombus and TB would be a good move. Colombus might object since i am sure they enjoy playing the Pens and getting their arena sold out.
Northern fans that re locate after so much time cheering for a team just wont cheer for or go to Panthers games.. I'm a pittsburgher that spent 3 years outside Raleigh , came back to Pittsburgh for a few years, now live in Chicago.........
Didn't, can't, won't, watch or go to Canes or Hawks games..... just didn't care enough about the team or how they were doing when compared to the Pens. I bet same thing is in the minds of most transplants down there. Sure they'll go when the favorite team is in town but I bet alot of the diehards do that anyway ala when the Pens are in town and its all black and gold.....not enough.
Fire0nice228 wrote:Northern fans that re locate after so much time cheering for a team just wont cheer for or go to Panthers games.. I'm a Pittsburgher that spent 3 years outside Raleigh , came back to Pittsburgh for a few years, now live in Chicago.........
Didn't, can't, won't, watch or go to Canes or Hawks games..... just didn't care enough about the team or how they were doing when compared to the Pens. I bet same thing is in the minds of most transplants down there. Sure they'll go when the favorite team is in town but I bet alot of the diehards do that anyway ala when the Pens are in town and its all black and gold.....not enough.
I don't know that I necessarily agree. I'm a Penguins fan first, and I try to go to all the Pens vs Panthers games, but I still go to Panthers games and root on the Panthers. Look at what Lemieux did for the city of Pittsburgh, transforming it into a hockey town, really getting ice hockey and even dek-hockey to blossom, getting local Pittsburgh kids to the point that they are getting drafted into the NHL. That all took time.
The same things are happening down here, just at a much slower pace. Why? Up until now, bad ownership and hockey management for one. Huizinga, as with every other sports team he owned down here, was all about the money. Once he wasn't making money, he sold his teams and didn't care if he screwed over the teams and new owners in the process. Alan Cohen was the next owner, and he was downright horrible. A businessman that tried to be too involved in the hockey side of things, spent little money, and allowed the worst trade in team history (Luongo to VAN) to go down. Cliff Viner in 2009 was the first to start getting things turned around by eventually bringing in Dale Tallon.
The Panthers have been around for 21 seasons, and only made the playoffs 4 times....only once since the 2000 season. From a person who has watched hockey long enough, you've really got to get the right mix of things for an expansion franchise to work. Florida had that somewhat to a degree early on, but got away from it. They really have not had a superstar player since Pavel Bure. If you were to ask a longtime Panthers fan who the franchise players are, it would be 2 goalies (Beezer and Luongo), Bure, Jovanoski, and Mellanby. Look to the north, where they have had stars like Stamkos, Lecavalier, St. Louis, Andreychuck, Brad Richards, and Prospal. They have been much more successful in having star players, and drafting decent players.
From what I have seen, the new owners "get it." They took away the ice dancers (that didn't even dance on the ice, they looked like strippers with slightly more clothes on) not because they couldn't afford to pay them, but because some families complained and because they felt they could spend the money better on other areas of entertainment more related to hockey. The new owners also have heard one of my beefs, the 100 level "club sections." They get that you have now priced out die hard fans from getting close to the ice or behind the bench because previous ownership built fancy clubs in those sections and charge a bundle to sit there because of the club access....again, clubs don't really have much to do to watching a hockey game.
The article below goes into a bit of this. I think what you are seeing now is very similar to what was happening in Pittsburgh to get a new arena, and the posturing that occurs. They don't need a new arena, but the Marlins new stadium fiasco has pretty much guaranteed no other local sports team is going to get much in the way of public funding. On the Panthers side, sure there are concerts and some other events at the BB&T Center, but there are no other major tenants there. If the Panthers were to leave, Broward County would lose a heck of a lot more money. The new owners are finally close to having a solid product on the ice, and are spending the money that is needed to be competitive. Really hope they don't move.
