Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
-
- Junior 'A'
- Posts: 328
- Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:47 am
Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
Here we go:
Wayne Gretzky was a great hockey player. His nickname, the Great One, while well earned, does not mean he is deserving of:
A) an entire floor of the hockey hall of fame being dedicated just to him
B) his #99 jersey to be retired across the league for all teams, even those he didn't play for
Gretzky is the best point collector in NHL history. He was a dynamic offensive player, on the best team in the league, at a time when scoring in the league was at an all time high. He stayed relatively healthy throughout his career, and his playmaking skills did not diminish with age, so he holds all the scoring records, and a bunch of cups with Edmonton. There is no doubt he is AMONG the greatest to ever play the game. But cases could certainly be made for Lemieux, Orr, Howe, Richard being just as good of players, if not better when taking all things into consideration.
Wayne Gretzky was a great hockey player. His nickname, the Great One, while well earned, does not mean he is deserving of:
A) an entire floor of the hockey hall of fame being dedicated just to him
B) his #99 jersey to be retired across the league for all teams, even those he didn't play for
Gretzky is the best point collector in NHL history. He was a dynamic offensive player, on the best team in the league, at a time when scoring in the league was at an all time high. He stayed relatively healthy throughout his career, and his playmaking skills did not diminish with age, so he holds all the scoring records, and a bunch of cups with Edmonton. There is no doubt he is AMONG the greatest to ever play the game. But cases could certainly be made for Lemieux, Orr, Howe, Richard being just as good of players, if not better when taking all things into consideration.
-
- AHL'er
- Posts: 4821
- Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:23 pm
- Location: beyondauction [16:54:33] you are scammer
-
- AHL'er
- Posts: 4821
- Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:23 pm
- Location: beyondauction [16:54:33] you are scammer
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
also
no hotlink, no hotlink, no hotlink...
no hotlink, no hotlink, no hotlink...
-
- NHL Third Liner
- Posts: 39689
- Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 11:13 am
- Location: Nevin Shapiro A&M
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
if you're gonna say "Player A isnt the greatest player ever" you need to say who is, not a list of maybes.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 15030
- Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:15 pm
- Location: http://freebitco.in/?r=770437 BITCOINS get them
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
Nothing to see here. Mikey comes in with tangible proof, other person can't provide tangible proof that anyone else is the greatest. End of story.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 21107
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:40 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA - @MichaelFarkasHF
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
Sigh...yeah...I was really expecting a better effort in the OP. It's just complaining about Gretzky being so much than everyone instead of just slightly better than everyone...I'm pretty disappointed.Pavel Bure wrote:Nothing to see here. Mikey comes in with tangible proof, other person can't provide tangible proof that anyone else is the greatest. End of story.
The only thing I can do to make this remotely interesting for me is say that Beliveau > Richard for 5th best player of all time.
Everything else is just easily answered with a bare minimum answer.
So I'll just post mildly interesting things instead...
* 8 Hart Trophies
* 8 scoring titles (and tied for another his first season)
* 9 assist titles
* 5 goal scoring titles
* 4 Stanley Cups (and 5 Finals)
* At least three dozen NHL records (maybe more, maybe 50)
* 5 playoff scoring titles (including 2 Conn Smythes)
* 3 Canada Cup Scoring Titles in all 3 Canada Cups (plus an MVP)
...and then he turned 28 and went to the Kings and played for another 11 seasons!
-
- Junior 'A'
- Posts: 328
- Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:47 am
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
sorry to bore you, but I'm not going to say gretzky wasnt good. that would be stupid. i am saying that the worship by the cult of the great one puts him on another plane of existence from every other player cause he collected the most points in the leagues highest scoring era. why can some scrub from the flames wear 66 but nobody can use the all holy 99? Marios ppg are right on pace with gretz.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 21107
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:40 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA - @MichaelFarkasHF
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
Maybe he made the era high scoring?
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 24486
- Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:53 am
- Location: NY
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
The only thing you need to know about Gretzky is that he has more assists (1,963) then the next person (Messier) on the list has points (1,887)....think about that...SIC
-
- Junior 'A'
- Posts: 328
- Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:47 am
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
Yes, Gretz has pretty much every points record. Mario would be very close tho if he had stayed healthy. They both played in the 80s and early 90s, the highest scoring era in league history. But Wayne had a better team for more years, and more importantly did not lose large chunks of his prime career to injuries. If Mario had been able played as many total games as Messier did, he would have eclipsed 3000 points. Gretzky was great, but not locked in as, with no debate, the greatest.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 21107
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:40 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA - @MichaelFarkasHF
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
If Gordie Howe was playing in an expansion-filled, diluted era, he would have beat them all. Instead, Gordie had to play against the 5 best goalies in the world every night and going against the 5 best defensive pairings in the world every night and get checked by 5 best left wingers every night...he never got to score 12 goals in a game against the expansion Lightning or Senators...he never got to shoot on Allan Bester or Murray Bannerman (well, maybe him).
There's mild debate, but it's not a very convincing case. Just a lot of ifs. So far, the subject here hasn't been broached.
There's mild debate, but it's not a very convincing case. Just a lot of ifs. So far, the subject here hasn't been broached.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 15030
- Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:15 pm
- Location: http://freebitco.in/?r=770437 BITCOINS get them
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
I guess... although the European nations weren't tapped at all during his time soooooooo hard to say if the "best" moniker is true. I could be very wrong though just going off logical steps.mikey287 wrote:If Gordie Howe was playing in an expansion-filled, diluted era, he would have beat them all. Instead, Gordie had to play against the 5 best goalies in the world every night and going against the 5 best defensive pairings in the world every night and get checked by 5 best left wingers every night...he never got to score 12 goals in a game against the expansion Lightning or Senators...he never got to shoot on Allan Bester or Murray Bannerman (well, maybe him).
There's mild debate, but it's not a very convincing case. Just a lot of ifs. So far, the subject here hasn't been broached.
-
- AHL All-Star
- Posts: 5728
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:38 pm
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
Gretzky owned the beer league nhl of the late 70's / early 80's.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 21107
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:40 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA - @MichaelFarkasHF
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
European nations weren't really producing all that great of talent until after the 60's...I recommend a quick bit of research on the most unknown great goaltender Seth Martin and the Trail Smoke Eaters. It might help to gauge the fledgling level of competition in the 1960's international game.Pavel Bure wrote:I guess... although the European nations weren't tapped at all during his time soooooooo hard to say if the "best" moniker is true. I could be very wrong though just going off logical steps.mikey287 wrote:If Gordie Howe was playing in an expansion-filled, diluted era, he would have beat them all. Instead, Gordie had to play against the 5 best goalies in the world every night and going against the 5 best defensive pairings in the world every night and get checked by 5 best left wingers every night...he never got to score 12 goals in a game against the expansion Lightning or Senators...he never got to shoot on Allan Bester or Murray Bannerman (well, maybe him).
There's mild debate, but it's not a very convincing case. Just a lot of ifs. So far, the subject here hasn't been broached.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 16118
- Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:33 pm
- Location: 39°6′32″N 76°46′17″W
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
trollcity
I will give you that the late 70s and early 80s was a different era...which is why you can't really compare Gretzky to modern players, or even the late 80s early 90s. I say who really cares, we are privileged to see players this good play at all, especially here in Pittsburgh.
I will give you that the late 70s and early 80s was a different era...which is why you can't really compare Gretzky to modern players, or even the late 80s early 90s. I say who really cares, we are privileged to see players this good play at all, especially here in Pittsburgh.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 21107
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:40 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA - @MichaelFarkasHF
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
To be fair, he's not trolling. In fact, you can say I trolled him into starting the thread. This was basically my doing, I'm a sucker for historical debate now a days...
-
- Junior 'A'
- Posts: 328
- Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:47 am
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
Gretzky had 1.91 points per game. Lemieux had 1.88 on lesser teams while playing through more injuries. How is that case closed?
-
- AHL'er
- Posts: 3981
- Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:38 pm
- Location: Punxsutawney
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
I always felt that in any sport you can't compare greatness across the entire history but only across a generation.
We only know what a player did when they played. What he or she might have done or would have done in a past time or future time is pure speculation.
Gretzky was the best player of his era, just like Howe was of his era, and etc. Beyond that, I can't say for certain he would have lit it up before or after the time frame that he played.
If the premise of the argument is why should his jersey be retired for other NHL teams, I agree that it shouldn't. For the Oilers and Kings, yes, no doubt.
Stats across generations is like saying what cost a dollar in 1950 costs a dollar today. It doesn't. But it makes for one fun discussion.
We only know what a player did when they played. What he or she might have done or would have done in a past time or future time is pure speculation.
Gretzky was the best player of his era, just like Howe was of his era, and etc. Beyond that, I can't say for certain he would have lit it up before or after the time frame that he played.
If the premise of the argument is why should his jersey be retired for other NHL teams, I agree that it shouldn't. For the Oilers and Kings, yes, no doubt.
Stats across generations is like saying what cost a dollar in 1950 costs a dollar today. It doesn't. But it makes for one fun discussion.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 17885
- Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:24 am
- Location: The card table
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
why do we have to rehash this argument? Can't we be satisfied enough to have witnessed such greatness? Take the black and gold glasses off, and tell me that 99 wasn't the best and I scoff at the argument. Now if you were to throw older names in - Morenz, Malone, Nighbor, etc., at least it would be something to talk about and require thought.
As it were, longevity is not something so easily dismissed. At the top of the game for an extended period of time, are the names that litter the top of the all time scorers. Names that were up there for 20+ years. Was Messier in Gretzy's class? Probably not, but there he is at #2, and no less deserving of consideration of the best of his time.
As it were, longevity is not something so easily dismissed. At the top of the game for an extended period of time, are the names that litter the top of the all time scorers. Names that were up there for 20+ years. Was Messier in Gretzy's class? Probably not, but there he is at #2, and no less deserving of consideration of the best of his time.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 21107
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:40 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA - @MichaelFarkasHF
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
Points per game is nice and all, but Lemieux couldn't sustain it like Gretzky did. No one is blaming anyone, but one thing happened and the other didn't. No reason to punish Gretzky. In my opinion, Lemieux is 4th in that indisputable tier of greats (99, 4, 9, 66). Not to say Lemieux isn't great, far from it, but Gretzky did it better for 700 more games or thereabouts...Pucks_and_Pols wrote:Gretzky had 1.91 points per game. Lemieux had 1.88 on lesser teams while playing through more injuries. How is that case closed?
So this points-per-game seems to be the stat of choice. Gretzky's is marginally higher x ~1700 vs. Lemieux's marginally lower x ~1000. All things being equal, neither were winning a Selke any time soon, both dominant playoff players, neither were physical, Gretzky was probably the better leader (largely based off of the 1987 Canada Cup)...the career value can't point any other direction but Gretzky's. It's the easiest comparison to make (99 vs. 66) and it's the easiest win for Gretzky out of the 3 (Orr and Howe being the other two).
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 21107
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:40 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA - @MichaelFarkasHF
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
@relantel - I'll go there with older names. I love Frank Nighbor. No one can touch the "top 4" but I'll go down pre-memory lane for sure.
And I don't debate history for anything but the fun of it and the education of it. It's not that I don't appreciate what I have been so lucky to witness.
And I don't have Messier in my top 20 of all time, for the record. And I don't say that blindly either.
And I don't debate history for anything but the fun of it and the education of it. It's not that I don't appreciate what I have been so lucky to witness.
And I don't have Messier in my top 20 of all time, for the record. And I don't say that blindly either.
-
- NHL Second Liner
- Posts: 55335
- Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:42 pm
- Location: I'm sorry you feel that way
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
If I had to build my team around any player in History, I wouldn't give a single thought to anyone else.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 23173
- Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:11 pm
- Location: Washington, DC
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
But what about Messier's leadership?mikey287 wrote:@relantel - I'll go there with older names. I love Frank Nighbor. No one can touch the "top 4" but I'll go down pre-memory lane for sure.
And I don't debate history for anything but the fun of it and the education of it. It's not that I don't appreciate what I have been so lucky to witness.
And I don't have Messier in my top 20 of all time, for the record. And I don't say that blindly either.
/Pierre
-
- AHL All-Star
- Posts: 7308
- Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:39 am
- Location: mountains
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
I think Lemieux wins out for me when it comes to the case of: one game, winner takes all, who do you pick?
But being a professional is all about consistency, and nobody compares to the heights that Gretzky sustained for so long.
But being a professional is all about consistency, and nobody compares to the heights that Gretzky sustained for so long.
-
- NHL Fourth Liner
- Posts: 16216
- Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:07 am
- Location: Dead and Without Love
Re: Gretzky isn't the greatest player ever
Who cares? Anyone that talks in absolutes (Player A is the greatest of all time stuff) is going to be wrong. There is no way to compare players across generations or even in the same generation.
Examples of Lemieux, Gretzky, Howe, and Orr are all completely different players. Lemieux was a rare breed of size, grace, and offensive creativity that probably is unrivaled. Gretzky was a man of speed, talent, and offensive skills that have him head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of offensive production. Howe is a player that played in a generation where talent was not diluted by expansion teams and he was dominant in hockey's golden era. Orr is first and foremost a defenseman. That alone makes him his own conversation. But, his ability to go end to end has left an impact on the NHL with league always looking for the next "prototypical" defenseman that hasn't been seen much since Orr.
Examples of Lemieux, Gretzky, Howe, and Orr are all completely different players. Lemieux was a rare breed of size, grace, and offensive creativity that probably is unrivaled. Gretzky was a man of speed, talent, and offensive skills that have him head and shoulders above everyone else in terms of offensive production. Howe is a player that played in a generation where talent was not diluted by expansion teams and he was dominant in hockey's golden era. Orr is first and foremost a defenseman. That alone makes him his own conversation. But, his ability to go end to end has left an impact on the NHL with league always looking for the next "prototypical" defenseman that hasn't been seen much since Orr.