tifosi77 wrote:My interest in this discussion is purely about the exercise of power by a sporting authority in a non-sporting realm.
I get that - and believe me I don't care about the machinations of the NCAA - which is why I have zero problem with them taking morally a correct action. They might as well do something righteous in a sea of slime.*
As a nod to the photo above: we are seeing different sides of the same moebius strip.
Pavel Bure wrote:Criminal behavior is such a blanket term. If it was worded "The NCAA has never punished a school for child rape." You'd be hard pressed to find someone that says they shouldn't if it was involved with college sports.
Baylor's basketball program was sanctioned by the NCAA for:
* Coach Bliss paying for tuition for two players.
* Coaching staff providing meals, transportation, lodging and clothing to athletes.
* Coaching staff paying for tuition and fees for a recruit at another school.
* Bliss's encouragement of school boosters to donate to a foundation to woo prospective Baylor recruits.
* Failure to report positive drug test results by athletes.
* Failure by the entire coaching staff to "exercise institutional control over the basketball program."
Nowhere on that list do you see an NCAA sanction for Carlton Dotson murdering his teammate Patrick Dennehy.
[EDIT: Just read Rocco's comment bringing this up.]
Nor was their any penalty for the conspiracy Bliss laid out to blame Dennehy (a dead guy) and paint him as a drug dealer.
They're all related to amateurism rules and drugs. Because, that's what the NCAA is responsible for.
MWB wrote:Baylor basketball and up did not cover up the murder. If they had, would the NCAA gotten involved? I think so.
The coach told players to lie to the investigators and tell them the victim was dealing drugs in an effort to cover up the fact the victim was going to rat out everyone.
MWB wrote:Baylor basketball and up did not cover up the murder. If they had, would the NCAA gotten involved? I think so.
The coach told players to lie to the investigators and tell them the victim was dealing drugs in an effort to cover up the fact the victim was going to rat out everyone.
tifosi77 wrote:My interest in this discussion is purely about the exercise of power by a sporting authority in a non-sporting realm.
I get that - and believe me I don't care about the machinations of the NCAA - which is why I have zero problem with them taking morally a correct action. They might as well do something righteous in a sea of slime.*
As a nod to the photo above: we are seeing different sides of the same moebius strip.
* College sports in general.
I'm not completely unsympathetic to that line of thinking, I just disagree that the NCAA is the proper organization to get involved. There's nothing easy about this case, and hard cases make for bad law. I don't think there was any decision the NCAA could make that would have kept them from taking heat.
MWB wrote:Baylor basketball and up did not cover up the murder. If they had, would the NCAA gotten involved? I think so.
The coach told players to lie to the investigators and tell them the victim was dealing drugs in an effort to cover up the fact the victim was going to rat out everyone.
Still can't believe people think PSU got wronged in this. Amazing. But I knew it would happen. People still think Joe had nothing to do with anything and they're just picking on the dead guy cuz he can't fight back.
MWB wrote:Baylor basketball and up did not cover up the murder. If they had, would the NCAA gotten involved? I think so.
The coach told players to lie to the investigators and tell them the victim was dealing drugs in an effort to cover up the fact the victim was going to rat out everyone.
This obviously excludes the PR analysis that trumped legal analysis, but it's nice to see smarter legal minds mine agreeing with me.
Also, as to his last point about the B1G possibly walking out- the NCAA is held together right now on duct tape and promises. There's nothing stopping the big conferences from bailing and starting their own league where they don't share the money with the crap conferences. IIRC, nobody wants to be the first one to bail. If the B1G left, the rest would follow.
This obviously excludes the PR analysis that trumped legal analysis, but it's nice to see smarter legal minds mine agreeing with me.
Also, as to his last point about the B1G possibly walking out- the NCAA is held together right now on duct tape and promises. There's nothing stopping the big conferences from bailing and starting their own league where they don't share the money with the crap conferences. IIRC, nobody wants to be the first one to bail. If the B1G left, the rest would follow.
I just don't see how that really benefits PSU, big picture. Yes, they've got legal ground to stand on, but at what bigger cost? I think that PR angle is the bigger cost, which is a huge reason they went with the deal. As the last line of the article says, "t's hard to take a stand on principle when youre being punished for facilitating serial child molestation."
This obviously excludes the PR analysis that trumped legal analysis, but it's nice to see smarter legal minds mine agreeing with me.
Also, as to his last point about the B1G possibly walking out- the NCAA is held together right now on duct tape and promises. There's nothing stopping the big conferences from bailing and starting their own league where they don't share the money with the crap conferences. IIRC, nobody wants to be the first one to bail. If the B1G left, the rest would follow.
I just don't see how that really benefits PSU, big picture. Yes, they've got legal ground to stand on, but at what bigger cost? I think that PR angle is the bigger cost, which is a huge reason they went with the deal. As the last line of the article says, "t's hard to take a stand on principle when youre being punished for facilitating serial child molestation."
From a legal perspective, signing the Consent Decree is an admission of guilt that essentially exposes them to liability in any civil and criminal proceedings. Now, if the plan is to just fall on the sword when the Feds and victims come calling and write them all very large checks, that doesn't matter a whole lot. After admitting guilt though they don't have any other options. (As I tell clients, if you want to cooperate with the police, you can, but you might as well tell them everything because once you tell them anything we're not going to be able to fight the charges and the only thing you will have going for you is your cooperation.)
I agree that there wasn't a good choice, and it was practically impossible for the BOT to reverse this once the news came out. Had Erickson gone to the board first I'm not sure the same outcome would have occurred.
Just heard that O'Brien said he was under the impression (underlined for emphasis) a strong compliance with the NCAA could lead to a reduction in sanctions down the road.
If true, I don't know how anybody could still be defending the NCAA one way or another. If you're going to come out and take a hard stance you best have the guts to stick with it.
DudeMan2766 wrote:
Reminds me of the crying about hurting the innocent players then being disgusted by the coaches offering to get them away from this mess.
DudeMan2766 wrote:Reminds me of the crying about hurting the innocent players then being disgusted by the coaches offering to get them away from this mess.
lol, the chip on your shoulder is absolutely enormous. You're right, those kind, benevolent coaches just waiting outside the Lasch Building to give those broken down giants a big hug and take them to a home where they will be loved
A lot of the players didn't even want to leave the building because the vultures were circling in the parking lot outside.
DontToewsMeBro wrote:Just heard that O'Brien said he was under the impression (underlined for emphasis) a strong compliance with the NCAA could lead to a reduction in sanctions down the road.
If true, I don't know how anybody could still be defending the NCAA one way or another. If you're going to come out and take a hard stance you best have the guts to stick with it.
i don't see the problem. prisoners have their sentences reduced for good behavior. probation programs exist all over the place. what's the issue here?
much like the "how dare they punish innocent people" argument, this is another misguided attempt to make this seem like some crazy, one-of-a-kind brand of justice.
Then don't lie through your teeth in front of a national audience and say this has anything to do with changing a football culture and sending a stark wake up call to other schools.
DudeMan2766 wrote:Reminds me of the crying about hurting the innocent players then being disgusted by the coaches offering to get them away from this mess.
lol, the chip on your shoulder is absolutely enormous. You're right, those kind, benevolent coaches just waiting outside the Lasch Building to give those broken down giants a big hug and take them to a home where they will be loved
A lot of the players didn't even want to leave the building because the vultures were circling in the parking lot outside.
the coaches that are vulturing these players aren't doing anything wrong. the players who are leaving (aka the "innocent victims") want them there anyways.
shmenguin wrote:the coaches that are vulturing these players aren't doing anything wrong. the players who are leaving (aka the "innocent victims") want them there anyways.
I didn't mean to imply they are doing anything wrong, but the two points of view that Dudeman mentioned are hardly antithetical. You can disagree with the impact the penalties will have on the players, and also "disgusted" by the fact that in-conference coaches are parked on campus to grab the players.
I'm not personally disgusted by it, although I don't like it.
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