Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

[DudeMan2766]

I think I could even handle the idea like "oh boy. I hope this doesn't snowball into the NCAA getting big heads and overstepping their bounds on schools in the future." But flat out believing that these sanctions had no right to be brought upon the program is something I just can't imagine getting on board with.

[MWB]

Rocco, I think I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Your opinion is completely logical, even if I don't agree with it. I wasn't referring to you in what I said.

Likewise. There's room for disagreement without histrionics or broad generalizations that make people who disagree with you out to be sympathetic to child rapists and I appreciate you not resorting to them and I hope that I didn't say anything to you that sounded like a cheap shot. It's rare that a Yankee fan can think of something without being told by the YES Network what to say. (Okay, that was a cheap shot. It had been a while since I'd made one.)

:lol:
I'm actually at a Yankees AAA game now.

[shmenguin]

The NCAA avoided its rulebook here and created a completely different procedure to get to the outcome it wanted.

is your issue with this simply that you don't agree with their conduct and it bugs you, or do you think that they should not be allowed to do this? if we were talking about something grander than just the people who run college sports, the latter would make more sense.

plus the "rulebook" goes out the window to some extent when an unprecedented infraction (one that could never even be planned for when crafting the rules) occurs. that wouldn't fly if we were talking about some sort of judicial process, but the NCAA doesn't have to operate with such rigidity.

i agree that the motives behind what the NCAA did are shady, but my response to that is:

and?

[Rocco]

Rocco, I think I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Your opinion is completely logical, even if I don't agree with it. I wasn't referring to you in what I said.

Likewise. There's room for disagreement without histrionics or broad generalizations that make people who disagree with you out to be sympathetic to child rapists and I appreciate you not resorting to them and I hope that I didn't say anything to you that sounded like a cheap shot. It's rare that a Yankee fan can think of something without being told by the YES Network what to say. (Okay, that was a cheap shot. It had been a while since I'd made one.)

I'm actually at a Yankees AAA game now.

So a Royals game?

[DudeMan2766]

The NCAA avoided its rulebook here and created a completely different procedure to get to the outcome it wanted.

is your issue with this simply that you don't agree with their conduct and it bugs you, or do you think that they should not be allowed to do this? if we were talking about something grander than just the people who run college sports, the latter would make more sense.

plus the "rulebook" goes out the window to some extent when an unprecedented infraction (one that could never even be planned for when crafting the rules) occurs. that wouldn't fly if we were talking about some sort of judicial process, but the NCAA doesn't have to operate with such rigidity.

i agree that the motives behind what the NCAA did are shady, but my response to that is:

and?

Rocco you keep making statements like
"The Freeh report said exactly what they wanted it too say"
"The media and public got what they wanted."
"The NCAA avoided the rules to get the outcome it wanted"

This all makes it seem like you think people were just waiting for years for PSU to slip up so they can destroy them. Get off of it. Of course it was an outcome the NCAA (in your words) "wanted" or maybe just "content with," they were the ones that handed the freakin sentence down. Why would they give them a lesser punishment than they (in your words) "Wanted" or maybe just "deemed fit"

Your constant insuiations that this all happened because everyone but Penn State wanted it to happen is absurd. Keep deflecting blame though cuz hey, Penn State violated no NCAA rules.

[Tomas]

The NCAA avoided its rulebook here and created a completely different procedure to get to the outcome it wanted.

is your issue with this simply that you don't agree with their conduct and it bugs you, or do you think that they should not be allowed to do this? if we were talking about something grander than just the people who run college sports, the latter would make more sense.

plus the "rulebook" goes out the window to some extent when an unprecedented infraction (one that could never even be planned for when crafting the rules) occurs. that wouldn't fly if we were talking about some sort of judicial process, but the NCAA doesn't have to operate with such rigidity.

i agree that the motives behind what the NCAA did are shady, but my response to that is:

and?

I'd go one step further: while I absolutely don't care for NCAA (since I think they are a cartel that gets away with gigantic transfers of money away from young athletes), I think that the motives behind punishing a member institution for long institutional coverup of a totally despicable crime are totally clear and commendable. I'd lose even the last bit of respect for NCAA if they did not act swiftly.

As far as "overstepping the bounds" - I really don't mind an academic sport governing institution not having a special "pedophile rape punishment" section - so I am totally OK with acting outside of the typical "recruiting violation rules" box.

[What I am not comfortable with is the fact that neither NCAA or PSU were particularly forthcoming about the whole process. My "ideal solution" would have been a voluntary suspension of football activities by the affected university. Absent that, especially after seeing the completely delusional quotes from PSU BOT members, I'd actually would not be against the 3-4 year death penalty the Presidents apparently favored - *if* they were not secretive about it afterwards. Maybe even suspending the NCAA membership for the university, and requiring to re-apply for reinstatement - something one of the PTI hosts suggested on Monday.]

[tifosi77]

There do seem to be a couple people who don't think the punishment is appropriate.

But is that because they think the punishments are too severe? Or because of the objections Rocco, myself, and others are raising?

To be honest, I've kind of zoned out on everything except the NCCA jurisdictional angle. So it's entirely possible that I glanced over comments like that. If so, my apologies.

As far as crying about enforcing a broad bylaw that doesn't mean it wasn't used correctly. It's like getting caught speeding and pointing out every other guy that is speeding as the cop writes a tickets. What's right isn't always fair and what's fair isn't always right.

Not at all. It's not even a little bit like that. The speed limit is the speed limit, end of story. That's a clear violation with very specific parameters both for drivers to adhere to and for police to observe when enforcing the limit, and for the judicial system for administering the punishment; shoot, it's downright empirical.

But where do you draw the line for actions that aren't "promoting integrity"? What's the definition of 'integrity'? Who makes the definition?

Granted, if I were a rule writer I would want the rules to be as vague and unspecific as possible. That affords me - as The Man - the ability to interpret and apply them as I deem fit on a case-by-case basis. (This comes up all the time in motor racing; the more detailed a regulation is written, the easier it is to engineer a cheat that gets around it.) And that's the worry I have here. Honestly, the concern has eff all to do with Penn State. This is a point of contention for future instances with other schools. What's happened here is over and done with, and the University is happy to play along with everything.

Would it have made you feel better if the NCAA paid Freeh to investigate PSU and he handed over his exact investigation that he gave PSU? I really don't get the whole "they should have investigated" argument when they had the Freeh report and evidence from a Grand Jury already at their disposal.

Well, part of the problem is that the Freeh report provides nothing conclusive. It's all inference and "most likely" this and "high degree of probability" that. As the work product of this kind of investigation, it's incredibly flimsy..... which, honestly, had to be expected considering it's dealing with events that primarily took place a decade ago and involved one eyewitness who couldn't be interviewed contemporaneously because he is now suffering from dementia. Shoot, McQueary even mis-remembered the year in which the shower incident he witnessed took place.

Look at it this way; if I were thinking about bringing a lawsuit against PSU for this, I'm not entirely sure I'd bother referencing the Freeh report. I understand the NCAA doesn't have to adhere to the same standards of evidence as would be required in a court of law. But then, following rules doesn't seem to be a major concern for the NCAA now.

I think I could even handle the idea like "oh boy. I hope this doesn't snowball into the NCAA getting big heads and overstepping their bounds on schools in the future." But flat out believing that these sanctions had no right to be brought upon the program is something I just can't imagine getting on board with.

Well, if the first bit (worrying that it could snowball into a habitually overreaching NCAA) is legit, then...... why exactly does that same standard not apply to an actual situation where the NCAA did overstep its authority?

I mean, it's all well and good that Penn State has been utterly cooperative in the discipline process. Between the Consent Decree and tonight's BOT affirmation of that agreement, it's clear the University wants to put this in its rear view mirror toot sweet. But.... they would want that, wouldn't they? That's what's in the school's best interest at this point in time. The concern is that next year, or in 2014 or whenever, there will be a school that is not as cooperative. And yet they will find themselves at the business end of the same gun barrel. Perhaps not staring down a four-year bowl ban, or a severalty million dollar fine. But they could find themselves on the hook for something that's not exactly set forth with any clarity in the NCAA by-laws.

[DudeMan2766]

Again. The NCAA isnt licking its chops saying "You see what we just got away with?" waiting for another school to slip up in any way so they can drop the hammer. If anything the NCAA has a track record of letting programs that break the rules off the hook or handing out lame punishements that do nothing. But what some people have trouble getting thru their heads is this is an unprecedented situation that warrents unprecedented measures.

"The Freeh report is nothing but opinion"
"There arent clear cut rules regarding child rape coverups in the NCAA bylaws"
"NCAA got what it wanted."

Nothing but grasping at straws. Some of you are making it clear you'd be happy with Penn State getting off on any sort of technicality. That may not draw such a heated debate if they were paying players, or illegally recruiting. But thats not the case. I can't believe the arrogance that people think the whole sports world has been waiting all this time to just stick it to poor picked on Penn State.

But hey, Penn State didnt break any NCAA rules.

[Rocco]

The NCAA avoided its rulebook here and created a completely different procedure to get to the outcome it wanted.

is your issue with this simply that you don't agree with their conduct and it bugs you, or do you think that they should not be allowed to do this? if we were talking about something grander than just the people who run college sports, the latter would make more sense.

plus the "rulebook" goes out the window to some extent when an unprecedented infraction (one that could never even be planned for when crafting the rules) occurs. that wouldn't fly if we were talking about some sort of judicial process, but the NCAA doesn't have to operate with such rigidity.

i agree that the motives behind what the NCAA did are shady, but my response to that is:

and?

Rocco you keep making statements like
"The Freeh report said exactly what they wanted it too say"
"The media and public got what they wanted."
"The NCAA avoided the rules to get the outcome it wanted"

This all makes it seem like you think people were just waiting for years for PSU to slip up so they can destroy them. Get off of it. Of course it was an outcome the NCAA (in your words) "wanted" or maybe just "content with," they were the ones that handed the freakin sentence down. Why would they give them a lesser punishment than they (in your words) "Wanted" or maybe just "deemed fit"

Your constant insuiations that this all happened because everyone but Penn State wanted it to happen is absurd. Keep deflecting blame though cuz hey, Penn State violated no NCAA rules.

I've written my opinion on this 250-300 times. It's obvious you aren't reading it or are only reading every 5th word or so. I'm tired of writing it when it's not going to be read or it will be misread in such a way that implies I'm okay with PSU covering up child rape. Please, continue your anger-binging and leave me out of it. Go on thinking that the punishments that will be levied by the DOJ, DOE and the civil courts are nothing and that sanctions by the NCAA are the only real punishment. You're entitled to do that, just as I am entitled to be outraged by PSU's leadership yet troubled by the NCAA's actions. Much like one can think it's good to depose a ruthless dictator but be upset that the decision was based on a false premise, one can have divergent opinions on what has happened. Others have been able to understand what I'm saying even if they disagree, so that tells me I'm explaining my view clearly and the problems others are having understanding it are not on my end.

[shafnutz05]

There seems to be some serious lack of reading comprehension in this thread.

[count2infinity]

This is getting pointless.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

[DontToewsMeBro]

Yep. See ya in the college football thread this fall, maybe we can discuss more than realignment.

If you applaud the NCAA for erasing their line in the sand and drawing another one a mile down the road, that is your opinion and I will respectfully disagree with it.

[DudeMan2766]

This is getting pointless.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

Here its pointless, in another thread its comical banter

[viva la ben]

Just wait till the perjury trials. Sure will be more banter then.

[shafnutz05]

Just wait till the perjury trials. Sure will be more banter then.

I doubt it. Just about everyone that has criticized the NCAA here also agrees that there were definitely crimes committed, by the other people involved. The criminal court system most certainly has a long-established right to prosecute criminal cases.

[CBear3]

I'm actually at a Yankees AAA game now.

So a Royals game?

Darn you beat me to it.

[DudeMan2766]

Just wait till the perjury trials. Sure will be more banter then.

I doubt it. Just about everyone that has criticized the NCAA here also agrees that there were definitely crimes committed, by the other people involved. The criminal court system most certainly has a long-established right to prosecute criminal cases.

And thats what this is about right? People are upset the NCAA didnt have a documented clear cut rule on what they can do in situations like this. Which says to me those would be happy if ncaa woukd have just said, welp no rules on this, carry in as usual Penn State. Everone is fine with the men responsible going to jail, just not the school being punished. But you can bet if Joe were still alive and facing charges, which he would be, thered be a whole other laundry list of excuses and finger pointing to how thats somehow unfair as well.

[thehockeyguru]

Just wait till the perjury trials. Sure will be more banter then.

I doubt it. Just about everyone that has criticized the NCAA here also agrees that there were definitely crimes committed, by the other people involved. The criminal court system most certainly has a long-established right to prosecute criminal cases.

And thats what this is about right? People are upset the NCAA didnt have a documented clear cut rule on what they can do in situations like this. Which says to me those would be happy if ncaa woukd have just said, welp no rules on this, carry in as usual Penn State. Everone is fine with the men responsible going to jail, just not the school being punished. But you can bet if Joe were still alive and facing charges, which he would be, thered be a whole other laundry list of excuses and finger pointing to how thats somehow unfair as well.

The issue I have is punishing the school when those involved aren't there anymore. A lot of people are affected by the ruling who shouldn't be.

[DudeMan2766]

Yeah that never happens in college sports. Or with corporations in the real world. People really expected the school to get nothing out of this?? I find that really hard to believe. Everyone expected it. It wasnt until u saw how harsh the sanctions were that we heard all the bellyaching about he ncaa not being fair

[Rylan]

I feel that the random posts I spot read have been said before. I need to stop myself from clicking on this thread.

[pfim]

Yeah that never happens in college sports. Or with corporations in the real world. People really expected the school to get nothing out of this?? I find that really hard to believe. Everyone expected it. It wasnt until u saw how harsh the sanctions were that we heard all the bellyaching about he ncaa not being fair

Pretty sure this argument started before the sanctions came out and has nothing to do with being "fair."

[thehockeyguru]

Yeah that never happens in college sports. Or with corporations in the real world. People really expected the school to get nothing out of this?? I find that really hard to believe. Everyone expected it. It wasnt until u saw how harsh the sanctions were that we heard all the bellyaching about he ncaa not being fair

People expected the school to get something, but how can you justify punishing the current players and coaches who weren't involved? To me this has always been an administrative blunder not a football team blunder.

[shmenguin]

but how can you justify punishing the current players and coaches who weren't involved?

other than the fact that they've done this several times to a bunch of programs in the past and no one said boo about the unfairness of it then?

[pfim]

but how can you justify punishing the current players and coaches who weren't involved?

other than the fact that they've done this several times to a bunch of programs in the past and no one said boo about the unfairness of it then?

To be fair, plenty of people have raked the NCAA over the coals over the years regarding this.

[DudeMan2766]

Football coaches and football facilities and football money was involved, so its just as much a football issue. This hurting current players is unfortunate, but its unavoidable unless Penn State just gets off scott free. The players can leave, and I know that isnt easy in the slightest, thats another issue I have. People, not saying here, are up in arms about coaches heading to PSU to recruit players. Its beem called disgusting by some. But isnt that whats best for these guys? They have people comming to them with better options and opportunities instead of them having to go out and search for it.