Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

[columbia]

I sleep fantastically well at night. I love how outraged you get when people have the nerve to disagree with you. I hope your rage at the fact that people won't just agree with you doesn't keep you up past your bedtime.

I'm sorry that I think rules are important. I wish I shared your ability to simply arrive at a conclusion and not be bound by anything that suggests I should do otherwise.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... -sanctions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"You can read the hundreds of pages of the NCAA manual from now until the Nittany Lions run onto the field to play Ohio on Sept. 1, and you won't find a single rule that Penn State violated in this case. If that doesn't mean anything, why have a rulebook?"

BTW, the NCAA did nothing to his enablers. One's dead and beyond the reach of the NCAA, though they kicked his corpse around some for show. The other 3 weren't mentioned or punished at all. But there's a smoking crater where people who had nothing to do with Sandusky used to be. Emmert hand-picked Spanier for a President's Committee but couldn't bring himself to castigate Spanier, who is the person who was supposed to be in charge. Not one person responsible for the mess was punished by the NCAA. You may argue that there was always going to be collateral damage if the NCAA was involved, and I would argue that it's precisely why the NCAA shouldn't get involved and instead leave it to the proper authorities who are best suited to deal with this stuff. Instead we have an amoral agency whose primary concern has been to get paid acting as a moral authority.

You got your panties in a bundle a month ago, when anyone dared question Paterno.
He and the rest of them have been exposed and you don't like.

Just admit it.

[Rocco]

They did exactly what they wanted and that disappoints you...clearly.

Much like how it disappointed you that Paterno was not charged with anything before he died. Thankfully we are allowed to voice our displeasure with how people act, are we not?

[columbia]

It's a private organization.
If they don't like the rules, then they can hit the road.

Again..... it's not about Penn State, the institution, in this case. I'm sure they agreed ahead of time to whatever the NCAA decided to do.

The problem is the collateral damage. There are almost 100,000 students enrolled in the Penn State system right now.... that's an awful lot of potential litigants.

And you keep saying "They're a private organization, they can do what they want". No, they can't. That's not how it works, and no amount of saying it is so can actually make it so.

Ahah...they should blame the NCAA for the institutional failures at Penn State?
They probably should be suing the administration, if that is the route they want to take.

[DontToewsMeBro]

I'm not the only one concerned, and not just here. Jay Bilas and Pat Forde among others have written articles/given interviews expressing concern about how this was handled. You should tweet at Bilas and call him a paranoid moron, he'd love that. This article from ESPN.com encapsulates many of my concerns.

Bilas seems mostly pissed that they didn't say anything about Spanier and the hypocrisy in that.... something that he routinely questions.

Right, the hypocrisy that Emmert used Spanier's inactions to convict the football program yet says he will wait for the court system to pass judgement about his character.

[Rocco]

I sleep fantastically well at night. I love how outraged you get when people have the nerve to disagree with you. I hope your rage at the fact that people won't just agree with you doesn't keep you up past your bedtime.

I'm sorry that I think rules are important. I wish I shared your ability to simply arrive at a conclusion and not be bound by anything that suggests I should do otherwise.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... -sanctions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"You can read the hundreds of pages of the NCAA manual from now until the Nittany Lions run onto the field to play Ohio on Sept. 1, and you won't find a single rule that Penn State violated in this case. If that doesn't mean anything, why have a rulebook?"

BTW, the NCAA did nothing to his enablers. One's dead and beyond the reach of the NCAA, though they kicked his corpse around some for show. The other 3 weren't mentioned or punished at all. But there's a smoking crater where people who had nothing to do with Sandusky used to be. Emmert hand-picked Spanier for a President's Committee but couldn't bring himself to castigate Spanier, who is the person who was supposed to be in charge. Not one person responsible for the mess was punished by the NCAA. You may argue that there was always going to be collateral damage if the NCAA was involved, and I would argue that it's precisely why the NCAA shouldn't get involved and instead leave it to the proper authorities who are best suited to deal with this stuff. Instead we have an amoral agency whose primary concern has been to get paid acting as a moral authority.

You got your panties in a bundle a month ago, when anyone dared question Paterno.
He and the rest of them have been exposed and you don't like.

Just admit it.

I have no connection to PSU. It's obvious that Paterno and others made egregious errors in judgment. They're all paying for it. The NCAA felt it needed to get its whacks in to save face and were able to do it because PSU doesn't have the capacity to return fire.

You're right, those 4 screwed up. Other than Paterno's ghost, who of them were punished today?

[columbia]

I sleep fantastically well at night. I love how outraged you get when people have the nerve to disagree with you. I hope your rage at the fact that people won't just agree with you doesn't keep you up past your bedtime.

I'm sorry that I think rules are important. I wish I shared your ability to simply arrive at a conclusion and not be bound by anything that suggests I should do otherwise.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... -sanctions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"You can read the hundreds of pages of the NCAA manual from now until the Nittany Lions run onto the field to play Ohio on Sept. 1, and you won't find a single rule that Penn State violated in this case. If that doesn't mean anything, why have a rulebook?"

BTW, the NCAA did nothing to his enablers. One's dead and beyond the reach of the NCAA, though they kicked his corpse around some for show. The other 3 weren't mentioned or punished at all. But there's a smoking crater where people who had nothing to do with Sandusky used to be. Emmert hand-picked Spanier for a President's Committee but couldn't bring himself to castigate Spanier, who is the person who was supposed to be in charge. Not one person responsible for the mess was punished by the NCAA. You may argue that there was always going to be collateral damage if the NCAA was involved, and I would argue that it's precisely why the NCAA shouldn't get involved and instead leave it to the proper authorities who are best suited to deal with this stuff. Instead we have an amoral agency whose primary concern has been to get paid acting as a moral authority.

You got your panties in a bundle a month ago, when anyone dared question Paterno.
He and the rest of them have been exposed and you don't like.

Just admit it.

I have no connection to PSU. It's obvious that Paterno and others made egregious errors in judgment. They're all paying for it. The NCAA felt it needed to get its whacks in to save face and were able to do it because PSU doesn't have the capacity to return fire.

You're right, those 4 screwed up. Other than Paterno's ghost, who of them were punished today?

The institution was rightfully punished..

[Rocco]

I'm not the only one concerned, and not just here. Jay Bilas and Pat Forde among others have written articles/given interviews expressing concern about how this was handled. You should tweet at Bilas and call him a paranoid moron, he'd love that. This article from ESPN.com encapsulates many of my concerns.

Bilas seems mostly pissed that they didn't say anything about Spanier and the hypocrisy in that.... something that he routinely questions.

Yes, however he also expressed a lot of concern about what the NCAA is going to do going forward whenever there's a crime committed by someone in the athletic department. I don't believe the NCAA covered itself in a ton of glory by how they acted.

[DudeMan2766]

Spoiler:

I think Rocco's parnoid that since the NCAA stepped in on this here, that they're going to "Roger Goodell" everything from now on and do as they please just because the can. Its pretty obvious that this is an incredible exception to a situation that has never happend before and most likely isnt going to happen again. I really don't think theres a reason to be that concerned.

I think I've laid out my reasons for concern on many grounds about PSU's actions that go beyond rank paranoia. Thank you though for calling me paranoid. What's next, accusing me of living in my mom's basement?

I'm not the only one concerned, and not just here. Jay Bilas and Pat Forde among others have written articles/given interviews expressing concern about how this was handled. You should tweet at Bilas and call him a paranoid moron, he'd love that. This article from ESPN.com encapsulates many of my concerns.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/ ... ent-others" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reading the quotes there, I keep coming to the conclusion that Emmert knew this wasn't an NCAA matter but wasn't happy with that so he just broke their own rules and got PSU to go along with it. That bothers me. And while there likely won't be a case identical to this one, there are going to be situations that arise in the future where the NCAA is faced with criminal actions by its members and has to explain why or why not it's not intervening on ethical grounds. And if they don't intervene, people will ask questions, much like Steelers fans bray any time a player charged with a crime escapes sanction after Roethlisberger got 6 games for no charges. (I don't believe I mentioned Goodell in the thread, but if you're going to bring him up I'll use a related example).

Obviously the NCAA isn't necessarily going to run rough-shod at this point. They pick their battles wisely and try to go after soft targets after Jerry Tarkanian embarrassed their enforcement process once and took a large chunk of their money a second time. Plus if they piss off enough of the schools, the schools will walk away from the NCAA. (That's one reason I don't think the death penalty was ever really a viable option and was a bluff- it would have put the Big 10 in a bind, and they don't want to give Delany a reason to try to convince the power conferences to walk away.) The NCAA has charted a new course with no idea where exactly the course is going. That usually ends badly.

You're obviously worried that this will set a precedent for the NCAA to take matters into their own hands in the future whenever they please. Instead of 'worried' I used the word "paranoid" Dont act like all I did was resort to name calling. Its clear you arent happy with PSU getting raked over the coals and Paterno's name being tarnished. But these "its the way they went about it" arguments dont cut it with me. Same with your "blame everything on the dead guy" insinuations you've made.

[Lt. Dish]

I'm not the only one concerned, and not just here. Jay Bilas and Pat Forde among others have written articles/given interviews expressing concern about how this was handled. You should tweet at Bilas and call him a paranoid moron, he'd love that. This article from ESPN.com encapsulates many of my concerns.

Bilas seems mostly pissed that they didn't say anything about Spanier and the hypocrisy in that.... something that he routinely questions.

Bilas is not only a practicing attorney, he's an active litigator, FWIW.

http://www.mvalaw.com/professionals-30.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Rocco]

It's a private organization.
If they don't like the rules, then they can hit the road.

Again..... it's not about Penn State, the institution, in this case. I'm sure they agreed ahead of time to whatever the NCAA decided to do.

The problem is the collateral damage. There are almost 100,000 students enrolled in the Penn State system right now.... that's an awful lot of potential litigants.

And you keep saying "They're a private organization, they can do what they want". No, they can't. That's not how it works, and no amount of saying it is so can actually make it so.

I think they're going to have a hard time establishing standing to sue when the PSU Board has already said they won't sue. I'd like to see it happen just for the fun of it but I can't see a judge wading into the middle of this.

[MWB]

I'm not the only one concerned, and not just here. Jay Bilas and Pat Forde among others have written articles/given interviews expressing concern about how this was handled. You should tweet at Bilas and call him a paranoid moron, he'd love that. This article from ESPN.com encapsulates many of my concerns.

Bilas seems mostly pissed that they didn't say anything about Spanier and the hypocrisy in that.... something that he routinely questions.

Bilas is not only a practicing attorney, he's an active litigator, FWIW.

http://www.mvalaw.com/professionals-30.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's probably the smartest guy covering college basketball. He also has tremendous dislike for the NCAA.

[Rocco]

Spoiler:

I think Rocco's parnoid that since the NCAA stepped in on this here, that they're going to "Roger Goodell" everything from now on and do as they please just because the can. Its pretty obvious that this is an incredible exception to a situation that has never happend before and most likely isnt going to happen again. I really don't think theres a reason to be that concerned.

I think I've laid out my reasons for concern on many grounds about PSU's actions that go beyond rank paranoia. Thank you though for calling me paranoid. What's next, accusing me of living in my mom's basement?

I'm not the only one concerned, and not just here. Jay Bilas and Pat Forde among others have written articles/given interviews expressing concern about how this was handled. You should tweet at Bilas and call him a paranoid moron, he'd love that. This article from ESPN.com encapsulates many of my concerns.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/ ... ent-others" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reading the quotes there, I keep coming to the conclusion that Emmert knew this wasn't an NCAA matter but wasn't happy with that so he just broke their own rules and got PSU to go along with it. That bothers me. And while there likely won't be a case identical to this one, there are going to be situations that arise in the future where the NCAA is faced with criminal actions by its members and has to explain why or why not it's not intervening on ethical grounds. And if they don't intervene, people will ask questions, much like Steelers fans bray any time a player charged with a crime escapes sanction after Roethlisberger got 6 games for no charges. (I don't believe I mentioned Goodell in the thread, but if you're going to bring him up I'll use a related example).

Obviously the NCAA isn't necessarily going to run rough-shod at this point. They pick their battles wisely and try to go after soft targets after Jerry Tarkanian embarrassed their enforcement process once and took a large chunk of their money a second time. Plus if they piss off enough of the schools, the schools will walk away from the NCAA. (That's one reason I don't think the death penalty was ever really a viable option and was a bluff- it would have put the Big 10 in a bind, and they don't want to give Delany a reason to try to convince the power conferences to walk away.) The NCAA has charted a new course with no idea where exactly the course is going. That usually ends badly.

You're obviously worried that this will set a precedent for the NCAA to take matters into their own hands in the future whenever they please. Instead of 'worried' I used the word "paranoid" Dont act like all I did was resort to name calling. Its clear you arent happy with PSU getting raked over the coals and Paterno's name being tarnished. But these "its the way they went about it" arguments dont cut it with me. Same with your "blame everything on the dead guy" insinuations you've made.

Given that the NCAA singled out Paterno but said nothing about Spanier/Curley, it seems blaming the dead guy is a course the NCAA is fine with taking.

It could be any school in the country and my reaction would be the same. Paterno's name is rightfully tarnished for his inaction and no tears are shed here for PSU. I've written my concerns far too many times to repeat them. If you choose to ignore what I've written and substitute in your own reading of what I have written, I can't stop you. I don't like that the NCAA did what they did to appease the mob and dressed it up under moral grounds when they have never shown an inkling of morality before. The threat of sanctions in the future will surely get across the message that the threat of jail time/civil lawsuits/loss of accreditation couldn't accomplish.

[tifosi77]

Ahah...they should blame the NCAA for the institutional failures at Penn State?
They probably should be suing the administration, if that is the route they want to take.

I'm not quite sure how you made that leap, but okay.

Today you finally realize you aren't Harvard.

Actually, I realized that when I got my acceptance letter.

I think they're going to have a hard time establishing standing to sue when the PSU Board has already said they won't sue. I'd like to see it happen just for the fun of it but I can't see a judge wading into the middle of this.

I'm honestly not sure how it works when constituent individuals of a body are aggrieved by the actions of what is essentially a trade organization of which that body is a member. But standing isn't the worry as much as the perpetual front-page presence that a litany of lawsuits would provide. So in essence I think the NCAA embarked on a PR and legal risk analysis that touched on the public execution of the school and those involved that columbia seems to advocate, the more measured and frankly garden-variety sanctions they imposed (even if they are on an unprecedented scale), and complete inaction. Obviously, the two extremes are right out.

[Rocco]

I'm not the only one concerned, and not just here. Jay Bilas and Pat Forde among others have written articles/given interviews expressing concern about how this was handled. You should tweet at Bilas and call him a paranoid moron, he'd love that. This article from ESPN.com encapsulates many of my concerns.

Bilas seems mostly pissed that they didn't say anything about Spanier and the hypocrisy in that.... something that he routinely questions.

Bilas is not only a practicing attorney, he's an active litigator, FWIW.

http://www.mvalaw.com/professionals-30.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

He's probably the smartest guy covering college basketball. He also has tremendous dislike for the NCAA.

I think he's over the top sometimes with his calls for players to get paid, but he's incredibly harsh on the NCAA. If ESPN's tried to muzzle him to keep from upsetting its business partner they've failed miserably.

[Tomas]

Which is why I was advocating the self-imposed death penalty - not to save face for the football team, but the University's reputation. It would have stood for something in the face of all of this. Now they just look guilty as an Institution and too weak to act for what was right - starting in 1998 and continuing all the way to today.

So depressing.

Out of everything that was written, this is the opinion I agree with the most. I think it was given that some serious punishment had to be rendered before the start of the new season, and I think it was given that the consequences will be severe (because it really was not just "4 people" who screwed up).

Considering that, I really thought the PSU administration wasted an incredible opportunity to act as leaders and proactively, and voluntarily withdraw from football for a few years. The President could have been known as the author of "THE SPEECH" - about responsibility, morality, about what defines "us" as people and the PSU as an institution. Something that had the potential to turn the public perception around, and something that I believe people would eventually really majorly rally around.

Instead, the PSU people let the others to come up with the "verdict." The image of today will always be the condemnation of the university. Nothing positive to outweigh it. The university really looks guilty and incapable to deal with the sins of the past straight up.

[Rocco]

I think they're going to have a hard time establishing standing to sue when the PSU Board has already said they won't sue. I'd like to see it happen just for the fun of it but I can't see a judge wading into the middle of this.

I'm honestly not sure how it works when constituent individuals of a body are aggrieved by the actions of what is essentially a trade organization of which that body is a member. But standing isn't the worry as much as the perpetual front-page presence that a litany of lawsuits would provide. So in essence I think the NCAA embarked on a PR and legal risk analysis that touched on the public execution of the school and those involved that columbia seems to advocate, the more measured and frankly garden-variety sanctions they imposed (even if they are on an unprecedented scale), and complete inaction. Obviously, the two extremes are right out.

I am sure there are some very wealthy individuals who are working on injunctions as we speak, and I'd love for them to find a way in front of a judge. I just don't know how you get there or if any judge is going to want to touch that matter.

[columbia]

Ahah...they should blame the NCAA for the institutional failures at Penn State?
They probably should be suing the administration, if that is the route they want to take.

I'm not quite sure how you made that leap, but okay.

You raised the issue of 100,000 potential litigants.
Whom would they be suing and on what grounds?

[Tomas]

Ahah...they should blame the NCAA for the institutional failures at Penn State?
They probably should be suing the administration, if that is the route they want to take.

I'm not quite sure how you made that leap, but okay.

You raised the issue of 100,000 potential litigants.
Whom would they be suing and on what grounds?

This is what the legal analyst ESPN always uses (Lester Munson) thinks:

It is possible for a wealthy alumnus, a season-ticket holder, a coach, a taxpayer or even a student-athlete to file a lawsuit challenging the sanctions and the consent decree. But any lawsuits are doomed to failure. Erickson's signature on the consent decree means that the university has agreed to the sanctions and to be bound by them for five years.

No one has the standing or the authority to challenge what Erickson and the university have agreed to do. Penn State expressly agrees that it cannot be challenged with "judicial process." Anyone who files a lawsuit would face not only an early dismissal of the case but also the payment of the legal fees incurred by the NCAA and Penn State as they obtain the dismissal. The lawsuit would be an expensive failure.

The rest of the argument:
http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... ating-1998" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[columbia]

If anything, I would think that the Penn State alumni would consider a class action suit against the living people that allowed this to continue happening on campus. It wouldn't be worth the money spent, but that wouldn't really be the point.

[tifosi77]

Ahah...they should blame the NCAA for the institutional failures at Penn State?
They probably should be suing the administration, if that is the route they want to take.

I'm not quite sure how you made that leap, but okay.

You raised the issue of 100,000 potential litigants.
Whom would they be suing and on what grounds?

I set that forth a couple posts ago.

If the NCAA truly acted without legitimate authority, and non-actors at the University can be shown to have suffered consequences as a result, then that can be a cause of action for litigation. I'll defer to Rocco's opinion that it would be a pretty high hurdle to clear to establish standing.

But I'm still not sure how you got from me asserting that students might have recourse against the NCAA if their tuition suddenly jacks up 10%, and saying the NCAA is to blame for the institutional failures at Penn State. Because what I am suggesting is predicated on the notion that the NCAA acted outside their authority.

[columbia]

If the NCAA acted outside of their authority (as your believe) and tuition rose (as you fear), whom would you suggest that the students sue? It's not the NCAA's fault that the institution failed in the most profound manner.

[tifosi77]

But if the penalties imposed by the NCAA were rooted in fraudulent authority, the institutional failure would be immaterial to any claims that might be brought. As perverse as it sounds, the institutional failure did not result in the (hypothetical) tuition increases. The punishment did. And if the punishment is not based in any legitimate authority......

The crazy thing about this is that the $60 million isn't even the largest fine ever levied by a sporting body. A couple years ago, the FIA levied a fine of $100,000,000 (one hundred million dollars) on Vodafone McLaren-Mercedes for stealing the intellectual property of Ferrari. So apparently it is a more egregious offense to be in possession of a handful of technical drawings of a rivals racing car than it is to cover up the sexual assault and rape of young boys.

[columbia]

You're insinuation (claim?) that the NCAA is not a legitimate authority in this case is problematic.
Penn State joined the NCAA on its on free will and they are now abiding by the decision of the body.

[Idoit40fans]

Every time I see this thread title, I read it as Jerry Sandusky Trail. Not sure why.

[Sam's Drunk Dog]

Every time I see this thread title, I read it as Jerry Sandusky Trail. Not sure why.

I just had an instant inappropriate video game idea.