Rylan wrote:No. You never allow victims to determine punishment because it is generally out of revenge and not justice.
This whole thing irks me because its the actions of a few that brand all. Sort of like negative American perceptions based on the actions of our celebrities and movies. Penn St as an institution should not be punished because it is more than those 5 men. It is a community that lives because football brings in people. Giving the death penalty to the football team is akin to being nuked by Russia because of Kim Kardashian and Kanye West. It is an over powered response.
Blame football, blame Penn St and you are missing the overall problem. You are calling the innocent guilty by including them with the failures who allowed for the child molesting to go unpunished for years. By shutting down the football team, who are you punishing?
Will you be punishing Sandusky? Nope.
Will you be punishing Spainer? Nah.
Paterno? Negative.
Schulz? Again no.
Curley? Nuh uh.
Penn State as a whole? Including players, students, faculty, alumni, and the surrounding area of businesses and fans. That's who you punish. Football may have been the catalyst that drove the actions of 4 of those men to cover-up Sandusky's mess, but it did not directly do it itself.
As I have said before, the entire institution of Penn State was rewarded by the actions of these men. The financial benefits received by the institution due to the football program are ENORMOUS. The entire institution that is Penn State is responsible for the people it chooses to have represent it. It's not the same as being nuked because of Kim Kardashian because she isnt the representative of the country. If we ge nuked because of President Obama then that is comparable. He is who we the people chose to have represent us. We suffer those consequences. Penn State chose to have those men represent it. Penn State is responsible for the consequences of their actions. They chose to leave those people in power because the money kept flowing in. If this was not covered up then it is fair to assume there would be ramifications that occurred when it was brought to light. Perhaps those accountable are exposed then and the institution is off the hook because they did the right thing. In this case the institution (these men selected to represent them) did not do the right thing and now there are consequences. They don't stop at the men who did it. The institution that allowed them to act like this should be punished. Their glorified football program caused this debacle. Their glorified football program should bear the brunt of the punishment.
Penn St chose nothing. They didn't elect the AD, the President of the School, the Head Coach, or VP Schulz.
Also, why should everyone be forced to pay because of blowback by 5 men? The research program from Penn St should be punished because of the football team. The students who attend the school should be punished. The surrounding businesses should be punished. All because 5 men, of whom are neither elected nor chosen by the general Penn St populace, failed at being decent human beings and stopping this scandal before it started?
But even still, lets use your analogy of the President making Russia mad and causing them to nuke America because of the actions of a few is warranted? You would say that's fair as everything around gets razed? Doubt it.
As for the "glorified" football program bearing the brunt of this punishment is a sham. They will not be bearing the brunt, because the revenue generated helps fund many projects as well as lesser athletic programs (like the majority of female sports and men's sports outside of basketball). Is it fair to punish other student athletes not involved? The death penalty is not going to just punish football. It will punish the innocent for crimes they did not commit.
The football program funding other things is exactly why, Penn State as an institution, benefited from this cover up. For the record, I don't want the death penalty but football sanctions should be severe in terms of bowl games, tv, and scholarships. Penn State hired all these people and chose to allow them to have the power they had. Yes Penn State chose these men. The community did not but the school itself did. The students won't be punished. Their education can continue as planned without football. Oh yea that's why we go to school. I almost forgot.
The lady at Baierl Acura who stole the multi-millions from the company was the person who made the bad choice and broke the law. Her children received benefit from that choice. They had homes and vehicles which were seized because of her actions. They owned them and were innocent but they were still punished because her poor choices led them to obtain those.
shafnutz05 wrote:Pretty much the only argument I've seen for shuttering the program is for punitive reasons. The four people responsible all face criminal prosecution. I really don't see what upside closing it down has.
And if you think this is going to act as a deterrent...a deterrent for what? Not allowing child molesters free rein on campus? It's not going to be a deterrent against corruption at other universities.
I understand the desire to punish the "institution", but the arguments for it haven't been strong (or varied)
Murder still happens so we shoul just stop punishing those who still do it because it isn't going to keep it from happening again.
You punish with the hope that it deters others from acting the same. You don't stop punishing because I won't keep it from happening in every circumstance from now until the end of time.
We're now entering the predictable period of this story where it's either "death penalty" or "punish only those directly responsible"
The right thing to do is somewhere in between. The death penalty is excessive since this isnt necessarily even a NCAA issue. Also, the football program employs a ton of people. This isnt SMU. There are some big time implications of shutting down something that big.
But the school definitely deserves more than its already gotten. This was an institutional problem. A cultural problem. There's a finite group of people who's names were in the report, but they were employed and cultivated by the school itself. There needs to be something, but it doesn't have to be the absolute extreme of punishment.
joopen wrote:The football program funding other things is exactly why, Penn State as an institution, benefited from this cover up. For the record, I don't want the death penalty but football sanctions should be severe in terms of bowl games, tv, and scholarships. Penn State hired all these people and chose to allow them to have the power they had. Yes Penn State chose these men. The community did not but the school itself did. The students won't be punished. Their education can continue as planned without football. Oh yea that's why we go to school. I almost forgot.
The lady at Baierl Acura who stole the multi-millions from the company was the person who made the bad choice and broke the law. Her children received benefit from that choice. They had homes and vehicles which were seized because of her actions. They owned them and were innocent but they were still punished because her poor choices led them to obtain those.
Penn State is a living thing though. Just as with any college, certain parts will help other parts.
But think of it this way. If there was no cover up and Sandusky was brought to trial and convicted in 2001, what would you consider for action against the football team?
The reason I ask is would you still want major penalties against Penn State? Probably not. So Penn State would continue benefiting from the football team. Do you really think outing him back then would change the financial course of Penn State? I don't. I think Penn State would raked in millions and not have had any different a financial situation than they have the past 10-15 years. So what does that mean? What was gained for the entire university because of a cover-up?
The passion PSU fans have for the university and the football program isn't going to drastically change if the program is shut down for a year. As soon as they play again you'll have Beaver Stadium packed and the tailgating fields full. The level of "worship" the fans have for the team has already been diminished. The school and fans won't be placing anyone in a position of unlimited power again anytime soon. Suspending the program isn't going to do anything except punish the innocent and satisfy the blood lust of the pitchfork mob.
shafnutz05 wrote:Pretty much the only argument I've seen for shuttering the program is for punitive reasons. The four people responsible all face criminal prosecution. I really don't see what upside closing it down has.
And if you think this is going to act as a deterrent...a deterrent for what? Not allowing child molesters free rein on campus? It's not going to be a deterrent against corruption at other universities.
I understand the desire to punish the "institution", but the arguments for it haven't been strong (or varied)
Shad it would be a deterrent from leadership engaging in a coverup.
I haven't taken much interest in this story because I don't much care about college at all besides what I owe to the banks which lent me money to get my degrees, but I think the whole notion of college athletics - once it gets beyond intramurals and regional intercollegiate competition - gets to be so comically absurd that I think a situation like this - as tragic and dispicable as it is - brings into sharp focus what an utter absurdity it really is. A college is a place for acquiring an advanced education; the amount of money and energy expended over any one of the athletic programs has always been inexplicable to me.
shafnutz05 wrote:Pretty much the only argument I've seen for shuttering the program is for punitive reasons. The four people responsible all face criminal prosecution. I really don't see what upside closing it down has.
And if you think this is going to act as a deterrent...a deterrent for what? Not allowing child molesters free rein on campus? It's not going to be a deterrent against corruption at other universities.
I understand the desire to punish the "institution", but the arguments for it haven't been strong (or varied)
Shad it would be a deterrent from leadership engaging in a coverup.
shafnutz05 wrote:Pretty much the only argument I've seen for shuttering the program is for punitive reasons. The four people responsible all face criminal prosecution. I really don't see what upside closing it down has.
And if you think this is going to act as a deterrent...a deterrent for what? Not allowing child molesters free rein on campus? It's not going to be a deterrent against corruption at other universities.
I understand the desire to punish the "institution", but the arguments for it haven't been strong (or varied)
Shad it would be a deterrent from leadership engaging in a coverup.
I guess criminal charges, jail time, fines, eternal shame, and perpetual poor prospects for future employment isn't enough of an incentive.
Last edited by Sam's Drunk Dog on Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
shafnutz05 wrote:Pretty much the only argument I've seen for shuttering the program is for punitive reasons. The four people responsible all face criminal prosecution. I really don't see what upside closing it down has.
And if you think this is going to act as a deterrent...a deterrent for what? Not allowing child molesters free rein on campus? It's not going to be a deterrent against corruption at other universities.
I understand the desire to punish the "institution", but the arguments for it haven't been strong (or varied)
Shad it would be a deterrent from leadership engaging in a coverup.
Just as jail sentences deter crime?
I've broken the law many times in my life and am very reluctant to do that now.
Do you know why? I have zero interest in going to jail.
Just as when every other cfb program is punished for corruption. I'm not calling for the death penalty, but a self imposed 1 year bowl ban would be a start.
viva la ben wrote:Just as when every other cfb program is punished for corruption. I'm not calling for the death penalty, but a self imposed 1 year bowl ban would be a start.
viva la ben wrote:Just as when every other cfb program is punished for corruption. I'm not calling for the death penalty, but a self imposed 1 year bowl ban would be a start.
I'm fine with punishment by the NCAA or some sort but I find the "death penalty" to be extremely excessive.
Yeah, I would have no issue with bowl and TV bans. But people are really overvaluing the deterrent aspect of this. Do you think this will stop coaches from covering up sweeteners for big prospects? Maybe a recruiting violation here or there? Please.
The death penalty has been issued once in NCAA history. It won't act as a deterrent to other schools. Unless there is the rare case that their coach is a child molester, but I'm pretty sure the lesson has been learned there.
A self imposed bowl ban would be laughable.
"Sorry we cheated and benefitted outside the rules" doesn't have the same ring to it as "Sorry our assistant football coach molested children for decades so we are going to elect not to play in a stupid bowl game to show how sorry we are."
shafnutz05 wrote:Yeah, I would have no issue with bowl and TV bans. But people are really overvaluing the deterrent aspect of this. Do you think this will stop coaches from covering up sweeteners for big prospects? Maybe a recruiting violation here or there? Please.
The death penalty has been issued once in NCAA history. It won't act as a deterrent to other schools. Unless there is the rare case that their coach is a child molester, but I'm pretty sure the lesson has been learned there.
Really? The death penalty, self-imposed, is not punitive in any way. It is a cleansing of the culture and program to it barest bones. Build it back from the ashes of scorched earth.
To not understand that this is about integrity of the University makes me wonder about the folks who don't get that this isn't punitive. It is a cleansing. It is the only statement possible that instantly restores the integrity of the place of learning and has almost nothing to do with Football as a sport.
Football can recover at PSU. The PSU nation, at least those who aren't involved in a massive rationalization so that they have something to do on Saturdays in the Fall, will never fully recover if we skulk our way into a 2012 Football schedule. That would be a joke.
I mentioned before that I don't watch very much college football, but I can't imagine watching a PSU game anytime soon.
Maybe that doesn't matter, but a lot of people will also hink that.
They need to do something to lessen the total creepazoid factor for the program.
How do they accomplish that? I don't know.
You really don't think the culture has already COMPLETELY changed? I am extremely skeptical as to how "cleansing" it will be. The specter of what happened will forever hang over the football program, and avoiding knee jerk actions won't change that.
Paterno is dead, the rest of the people responsible are headed to prison, and every single person associated with Penn State will forever have to live with the fact that their program was responsible for the worst scandal/story in the 150 year history of major college athletics.
I don't think a death penalty is really necessary, outside of a desire for additional self-flagellation. What exactly will the death penalty "cleanse" now?
Last edited by shafnutz05 on Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
shafnutz05 wrote:You really don't think the culture has already COMPLETELY changed? I am extremely skeptical as to how "cleansing" it will be. The specter of what happened will forever hang over the football program, and avoiding knee jerk actions won't change that.
Paterno is dead, the rest of the people responsible are headed to prison, and every single person associated with Penn State will forever have to live with the fact that their program was responsible for the worst scandal/story in the 150 year history of major college athletics.
I don't think a death penalty is really necessary, outside of a desire for additional self-flagellation. What exactly will the death penalty "cleanse" now?
the death penalty shouldn't happen, but additional punishment is needed. the school itself, and specifically the athletic program, is deeply intertwined with this scandal. it doesn't end with 4 or 5 people being terminated. i don't know what options there are...pulling the number of available scholarships, bowl bans maybe.
I wonder how this will affect the number of high-quality out of state undergrads applying to Penn State.
(The "Hmmm...have you that about Michigan or Purdue instead?" parental angle.)
i do think it's pretty close to the point where the death penalty is reasonable, though. but the NCAA's responsibilities here are fuzzy. and while i don't care about how the death penalty would affect the students, alumni, the board or anyone else who uses the program for entertainment or to make money, i imagine there would be a ton of people who would be out of work for a year if there was no football program. the little humanitarian in me doesn't like that.
