Yay Bure (HHOFr)

[joopen]

Bure is in. Along with Sakic obviously, Sundin and Oates.

How is Shanahan not in? Stunned.

Discuss.

Good player, but his vision is terrible... :pop:

I really hope that had nothing to do with him getting passed up this round.

I predict 5-10 game suspension for the HHOF voters and I can't wait for his video explaining how they had ample opportunity to change their path but instead went for the cheap shot on Shannahan

[steelhammer]

Is there some kind of support group we could join if Jeremy Roenick ever gets into the HHOF? I saw that his name was on the list as "eligible". Are they going to list his NHL 94 rating as one of the reasons?

[mikey287]

Is there some kind of support group we could join if Jeremy Roenick ever gets into the HHOF? I saw that his name was on the list as "eligible". Are they going to list his NHL 94 rating as one of the reasons?

Yeah, I would need some serious counseling if that ever happened. Ya know, truth be told, he was probably on pace for to really challenge for a HHOF career before his injury. But he's not even the next American in the queue...I hope that JR never gets in though...

[Pitt87]

Bure is in. Along with Sakic obviously, Sundin and Oates.

How is Shanahan not in? Stunned.

Discuss.

Good player, but his vision is terrible...

I really hope that had nothing to do with him getting passed up this round.

I predict 5-10 game suspension for the HHOF voters and I can't wait for his video explaining how they had ample opportunity to change their path but instead went for the cheap shot on Shannahan

"As you can see, the HHOF clearly aimed directly for Shanny's heart..." :tear:

[jimjom]

Love the Messier compiler analysis. Basically could have retired in 1997 as Mikey points out but his ego led to him hanging on and destroying the Canucks and Rangers in the process.

My lasting impression of the greatest captain ever is his dirty play on Martin Strbak in one of his last games. Made me change the way I felt about Messier.

[Idoit40fans]

Someone was willing to pay him to keep playing. Unless the player is the gm and coach as well, compiler arguments are horrible.

[mikey287]

Someone was willing to pay him to keep playing. Unless the player is the gm and coach as well, compiler arguments are horrible.

By way that someone is paying him to play in the league, that excludes him from being a compiler? I'm sure that I follow. What do you think I mean when I say "compiler"...I mean, that he's hanging on but he shouldn't be credited with adding to his legacy...if Messier retired when he stopped be overtly useful, he probably would have been 14th all-time in points or thereabouts...instead he hung on until he could break Howe's mark...so people look and go "durr, 2nd all time in points! He must be a top-5 player all time!" ...when that's obviously not the case. That's what I'm talking about...like Roenick scraping together years on fourth lines to scratch out 500 goals...I get it, I would have liked to hit 500 goals as well, but I'd hate to see him end up in the HHOF because it took him four years of being completely useless to accomplish it and try to pass it off as greatness...

[Gabe]

Not really understanding why some think Ciccarelli shouldn't be enshrined. 17th all time with 608 goals is nothing to sneeze at. I'd think that 1200 pts qualifies for the hall.

Which is right on the money of what's wrong with the Hall. What if the NHL removed the offside rule...scoring would easily double. Nail Yakupov plays 10 years in the offside-less hockey era and records 1600 points. You're telling me his 1600 points are worth as many as Jagr's, who scored the vast majority of his in the clutch and grab era? That's a plump stack of bologna.

Scoring X = HHOF, is maybe the worst argument in sports history. It sucks, it's crap, it sucks craps...

Tell us how you really feel Mikey.
I agree that we're never talking apples to apples, but if Neely gets in with his injury-shortened career, why shouldn't a guy that was a consistent goal scorer? You and I both know that the intangibles Neely brought to the game made him a much more valuable commodity than what his stats line indicates and I don't actually question his being there. What if Scuderi wins another 4 or 5 cups and is a major player in those cup winning teams? Does he get in for being a defensive stalwart that brought the goods come playoff time? To be honest, i'd be ok with the HHOF being more selective and only choosing the top tier greats for this honor. Just like with number retirements, when there are too many people in, the honor becomes less special.

[mikey287]

Not really understanding why some think Ciccarelli shouldn't be enshrined. 17th all time with 608 goals is nothing to sneeze at. I'd think that 1200 pts qualifies for the hall.

Which is right on the money of what's wrong with the Hall. What if the NHL removed the offside rule...scoring would easily double. Nail Yakupov plays 10 years in the offside-less hockey era and records 1600 points. You're telling me his 1600 points are worth as many as Jagr's, who scored the vast majority of his in the clutch and grab era? That's a plump stack of bologna.

Scoring X = HHOF, is maybe the worst argument in sports history. It sucks, it's crap, it sucks craps...

Tell us how you really feel Mikey.
I agree that we're never talking apples to apples, but if Neely gets in with his injury-shortened career, why shouldn't a guy that was a consistent goal scorer? You and I both know that the intangibles Neely brought to the game made him a much more valuable commodity than what his stats line indicates and I don't actually question his being there. What if Scuderi wins another 4 or 5 cups and is a major player in those cup winning teams? Does he get in for being a defensive stalwart that brought the goods come playoff time? To be honest, i'd be ok with the HHOF being more selective and only choosing the top tier greats for this honor. Just like with number retirements, when there are too many people in, the honor becomes less special.

"Consistency" often gets used as an excuse for "not elite" though...and since we're trying to filter out the "very good" and get to the gems here, I'm not sure why we're wasting time "with very good...but not great"...Gretzky was consistent as well, consistently better than everyone. Ciccarelli consistently didn't do anything besides score at the expected rate for a very good player that played in his time. Which is why you don't see any top-5 points finishes...and only two times top-10. ****head Dennis Maruk also has a similar resume, two times top-10 in goals, two times top-10 in assists, a top-5 points finish, an 11th and a 13th...but I mean, he has no shot, nooooo shot...how is Ciccarelli "ink wise" that much better off than Maruk besides the fact that Ciccarelli hung on and played for some expansion teams after the lockout after the Red Wings determined that he was part of the problem there (and promptly won 3 Cups in 6 years without him)...?

Regarding Neely and everything he brought...is it unfair to say that Neely was the best or one of the best at this position for nearly a decade? At least in the top-most elite group of his position for 7, 8, 9 years? That's valuable. And he's largely credited with "creating a role" basically. Just like Lindros changed the game in that fashion...teams for more than 10 years tried to draft the next one of him and failed every single time...he changed the game. That's valuable.

Re: Scuderi. I mean, a hypothetical that sees a player winning another 5 Stanley Cups is really tough to discuss. I mean, what if Pascal Dupuis scores another 400 goals? Ya know? Where are we? Talking about championships and all for role guys...but you don't hear much about Jaroslav Pouzar's HHOF balloting...ya know?

We both agree, it seems, that the HHOF is too loose with who gets in...once you loosen, you can't tighten up again really though...so it's tough...

[Dan H]

Mikey (and anyone else interested),

Out of pure curiosity, which of the following players do you think ought to eventually be voted into the HHOF, assuming that none of them ever played another shift from this moment onward? Yes/no/maybe/unsure is enough for us to feel out what you think the standard should be.

Jagr
Lidstrom
Chelios
Crosby
S Niedermayer
Ovechkin
Pronger
Selanne
Datsyuk
Iginla
Zetterberg
Malkin
J Thornton
Chara
Saint Louis
Gonchar
Roenick
Alfredsson
Kovalchuk
Langenbrunner
Brind'amour
D Boyle
Arnott
O Jokinen

That list isn't supposed to be inclusive, and I didn't list goalies deliberately. I thought about not listing defensemen, either, but it's easier to compare defensemen and forwards than goalies and skaters, so I threw some names in.

To me, everyone in my list above Selanne (including Selanne) is a no-brainer yes. Datsyuk and Iginla would probably both make my cut. The next 6 guys (through Gonchar) would provoke some thought, but without doing too much research I suspect many of them would make my cut. The next 5 guys (through Brind'amour) would also provoke thought, but I suspect I'd give more nos than yeses. Only for the last three would my knee-jerk vote be no.

Of course, many of the players on my list are still active and have time to write more of their legends. I expect Malkin will be a no-brainer yes by the time he finishes his career, for example, but if he retired right now that wouldn't be the case.

[joopen]

Mikey (and anyone else interested),

Out of pure curiosity, which of the following players do you think ought to eventually be voted into the HHOF, assuming that none of them ever played another shift from this moment onward? Yes/no/maybe/unsure is enough for us to feel out what you think the standard should be.

Jagr yes
Lidstrom yes
Chelios yes
Crosby not yet
S Niedermayer eh I guess?
Ovechkin not yet
Pronger yes
Selanne yes
Datsyuk maybe
Iginla more than Datsyuk
Zetterberg maybe
Malkin not yet
J Thornton no
Chara I guess
Saint Louis no
Gonchar no
Roenick no
Alfredsson no
Kovalchuk no
Langenbrunner no
Brind'amour no
D Boyle no
Arnott no
O Jokinen no

That list isn't supposed to be inclusive, and I didn't list goalies deliberately. I thought about not listing defensemen, either, but it's easier to compare defensemen and forwards than goalies and skaters, so I threw some names in.

To me, everyone in my list above Selanne (including Selanne) is a no-brainer yes. Datsyuk and Iginla would probably both make my cut. The next 6 guys (through Gonchar) would provoke some thought, but without doing too much research I suspect many of them would make my cut. The next 5 guys (through Brind'amour) would also provoke thought, but I suspect I'd give more nos than yeses. Only for the last three would my knee-jerk vote be no.

Of course, many of the players on my list are still active and have time to write more of their legends. I expect Malkin will be a no-brainer yes by the time he finishes his career, for example, but if he retired right now that wouldn't be the case.

[mikey287]

HHOF?

Jagr - slam-dunk lock, top 25 player ever.
Lidstrom - slam-dunk lock, top 25 player ever.
Chelios - slam dunk lock, top 15 d-man of all time.
Crosby - slam dunk lock, potential top 25 of all time
S Niedermayer - yes, though the most overrated player of my generation
Ovechkin - slam dunk lock, potential top 50 of all time
Pronger - slam dunk lock, top 25 d-man of all time, top 10 money player (?)
Selanne - slam dunk lock, despite his best efforts in the playoffs...later career resurgence really helped
Datsyuk - borderline, no for me right now
Iginla - yes
Zetterberg - a little below Datsyuk, probably not
Malkin - slam dunk, trending into the top 50 quickly
J Thornton - absolutely, despite his postseason resume
Chara - slam dunk
Saint Louis - probably, his late start might get him some late career production
Gonchar - negative
Roenick - negative, was looking good before that injury though...
Alfredsson - with Sundin in, he's got a shot, I wouldn't approve of it though
Kovalchuk - almost no doubt at this point unless the wheels come off
Langenbrunner - hahahahahaha I honestly feel I have a better chance
Brind'amour - Interesting case, borderline but no, just not elite enough
D Boyle - Negative
Arnott - Negative
O Jokinen - I actually lol'd

[André]

Great to see Bure in.

Lindros should be a lock no doubt.

And I'm pretty sure most observers of hockey would call Sundin better than Shanahan.

[mikey287]

Great to see Bure in.

Lindros should be a lock no doubt.

And I'm pretty sure most observers of hockey would call Sundin better than Shanahan.

Not here. I'm assuming it's the opposite case there? What's the news like in Sweden? Does the campaign start for Alfredsson?

From an Ontarian: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/06/ ... ts_sundin/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kevin Allen, USA Today: “Don't have any issue with today's HHOF choices. But Shanahan should have been automatic.''

Matthew Barnaby, former player and TV analyst: “I am blown away that Sundin made it and No Shanahan. Wow!''

Rich Chere, Newark Star-Ledger: “Mats Sundin in the Hall of Fame before three-time Stanley Cup champion Brendan Shanahan? Really?''

Nick Cotsonika, Yahoo! Sports: “Don't understand how Sundin is a first-ballot Hall of Famer and Shanahan is not. … Shanahan will have his day. It just should have been today.''

Darren Dreger, TSN: “I do my best to respect all nominees and the process, however, no Shanahan and no Pat Burns makes NO sense. Hall of Fame debate will rage on.''

Ray Ferraro, TSN: “For all asking--and there is a lot-- I would've picked shanahan before Sundin this year.''

Stan Fischler, hockey writer: “Brendan Shanahan belongs in Hall of Fame ahead of #Mats Sundin. Shanny won a Cup; Sundin won nothing but Toronto writers. Voters blunder.''

Elliotte Friedman, CBC: “Surprised Shanahan didn't get in. Very deserving.''

Joe Haggerty, CSN New England: “Can't wait to hear Will Arnett doling out punishment as Brendan Shanahan to the Hockey HOF for snubbing Shanny today.''

Jim Matheson, Edmonton Journal: “Sorry but Brendan Shanahan would have been a better first-ballot HHOF guy than Mats Sundin. More pts and 3 Cups, plus fearsome fighter.''

Bob McKenzie, TSN: “Personally, I think it's ludicrous that Brendan Shanahan wasn't a first-ballot HHOFer, and that Fred Shero and Pat Burns are still not there.''

Pierre LeBrun, ESPN: “Thrilled for Bure and Oates. Their HHOF call was long overdue. Stunned, however, Shanahan wasn't first ballot.''

Adam Proteau, formerly of The Hockey News: “If I were in charge of the Hockey Hall of Fame inductions today, Sakic, Shanahan, Fred Shero, Pat Burns and Geraldine Heaney would be in.''

Dan Rosen, NHL.com: “Like many others, I, too, am surprised that Shanahan did not get the call today.''

[JS©]

Not understanding Sundin hate.

I think he was definitely better player than shanahan

I'm listening...

I think Sundin's international resume put him over Shanny.

- Canada Cup All-Star Team 90/91
- Elitserien Champion 89/90
- NHL Best Swedish Player "Viking Award" 01/02, 96/97, 93/94, 92/93
- NHL Mark Messier Leadership Award 07/08
- NHL Most Game Winning Goals 03/04
- NHL Second All-Star Team 01/02, 03/04
- Olympic Gold Medal 05/06
- Olympic Most Points 01/02
- Swedish Junior Hockey Player of the Year "Årets Junior" 89/90
- TV-Pucken Gold Medal 86/87
- World Championship All-Star Team 91/92, 97/98, 02/03
- World Championship Best Forward 91/92, 02/03
- World Championship Bronze Medal 93/94, 00/01
- World Championship Gold Medal 90/91, 91/92, 97/98
- World Championship Most Assists 93/94
- World Championship Most Points 93/94, 90/91
- World Championship MVP 02/03
- World Championship Silver Medal 89/90, 02/03
- World Cup All-Star Team 95/96

as for Shanny

- Canada Cup Champion 90/91
- NHL First All-Star Team 93/94, 99/00
- NHL Leadership/Humanitarian Award "King Clancy Trophy" 02/03
- NHL Second All-Star Team 01/02
- NHL Stanley Cup Champion 96/97, 97/98, 01/02
- Olympic Gold Medal 01/02
- World Championship Gold Medal 93/94
- World Cup Runner Up 95/96

[pressure=9Pa]

Jagr -yes
Lidstrom - yes
Chelios - yes
Crosby - yes: Cup, Gold Medal, Hart, Scoring title is enough if he retired today. I think he clinched it at age 24, which is unreal
S Niedermayer - yes
Ovechkin - not if he retired today, but probably only needs ~2 more years at a non-embarassing performance level
Pronger - yes
Selanne - yes
Datsyuk - see Ovie
Iginla - yes
Zetterberg - I'd need to research
Malkin - not yet, needs 4-5 more solid years
J Thornton - leaning yes, but not sold
Chara - easy yes, he's higher on my list
Saint Louis - probably no, but can still change my mind
Gonchar - I think the Cup in Pittsburgh sealed it for him
Roenick - no
Alfredsson - no
Kovalchuk - no
Langenbrunner - no
Brind'amour - no
D Boyle - no
Arnott - no
O Jokinen - no

[mikey287]

Not understanding Sundin hate.

I think he was definitely better player than shanahan

I'm listening...

I think Sundin's international resume put him over Shanny.

- Canada Cup All-Star Team 90/91
- Elitserien Champion 89/90
- Hockey Hall of Fame 11/12
- NHL Best Swedish Player "Viking Award" 01/02, 96/97, 93/94, 92/93
- NHL Mark Messier Leadership Award 07/08
- NHL Most Game Winning Goals 03/04
- NHL Second All-Star Team 01/02, 03/04
- Olympic Gold Medal 05/06
- Olympic Most Points 01/02
- Swedish Junior Hockey Player of the Year "Årets Junior" 89/90
- TV-Pucken Gold Medal 86/87
- World Championship All-Star Team 91/92, 97/98, 02/03
- World Championship Best Forward 91/92, 02/03
- World Championship Bronze Medal 93/94, 00/01
- World Championship Gold Medal 90/91, 91/92, 97/98
- World Championship Most Assists 93/94
- World Championship Most Points 93/94, 90/91
- World Championship MVP 02/03
- World Championship Silver Medal 89/90, 02/03
- World Cup All-Star Team 95/96

This was rather belligerently assembled as it includes things from when he was 15 ot 16 deep in Swedish juniors, it also includes NHL awards and the fact that he made the HHOF is added to his HHOF case? That seems a little strange...

Playing in the World Championships (which makes up a lot of that relative nonsense) doesn't normally help one's cause because you have to been eliminated early from the NHL playoffs a lot to play in that...and it's especially unfair to compare it to a North American player for obvious reasons...

Shanahan won the 1991 Canada Cup and 1994 World Championships directly against Sundin...

Sundin's gold is 2006 is cancelled with Shanahan's in 2002. Additionally, Shanahan is a member of the Triple Gold Club, whereas Sundin is not.

And if international resumes all of a sudden hold enough value to push players in, then it doesn't explain some other key misses, such as, but not limited to Sergei Makarov...? This was just a C&P job without much research behind it unfortunately...

[André]

Great to see Bure in.

Lindros should be a lock no doubt.

And I'm pretty sure most observers of hockey would call Sundin better than Shanahan.

Not here. I'm assuming it's the opposite case there? What's the news like in Sweden? Does the campaign start for Alfredsson?

From an Ontarian: http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/06/ ... ts_sundin/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kevin Allen, USA Today: “Don't have any issue with today's HHOF choices. But Shanahan should have been automatic.''

Matthew Barnaby, former player and TV analyst: “I am blown away that Sundin made it and No Shanahan. Wow!''

Rich Chere, Newark Star-Ledger: “Mats Sundin in the Hall of Fame before three-time Stanley Cup champion Brendan Shanahan? Really?''

Nick Cotsonika, Yahoo! Sports: “Don't understand how Sundin is a first-ballot Hall of Famer and Shanahan is not. … Shanahan will have his day. It just should have been today.''

Darren Dreger, TSN: “I do my best to respect all nominees and the process, however, no Shanahan and no Pat Burns makes NO sense. Hall of Fame debate will rage on.''

Ray Ferraro, TSN: “For all asking--and there is a lot-- I would've picked shanahan before Sundin this year.''

Stan Fischler, hockey writer: “Brendan Shanahan belongs in Hall of Fame ahead of #Mats Sundin. Shanny won a Cup; Sundin won nothing but Toronto writers. Voters blunder.''

Elliotte Friedman, CBC: “Surprised Shanahan didn't get in. Very deserving.''

Joe Haggerty, CSN New England: “Can't wait to hear Will Arnett doling out punishment as Brendan Shanahan to the Hockey HOF for snubbing Shanny today.''

Jim Matheson, Edmonton Journal: “Sorry but Brendan Shanahan would have been a better first-ballot HHOF guy than Mats Sundin. More pts and 3 Cups, plus fearsome fighter.''

Bob McKenzie, TSN: “Personally, I think it's ludicrous that Brendan Shanahan wasn't a first-ballot HHOFer, and that Fred Shero and Pat Burns are still not there.''

Pierre LeBrun, ESPN: “Thrilled for Bure and Oates. Their HHOF call was long overdue. Stunned, however, Shanahan wasn't first ballot.''

Adam Proteau, formerly of The Hockey News: “If I were in charge of the Hockey Hall of Fame inductions today, Sakic, Shanahan, Fred Shero, Pat Burns and Geraldine Heaney would be in.''

Dan Rosen, NHL.com: “Like many others, I, too, am surprised that Shanahan did not get the call today.''

I said better, not definitely a clearer pick for the HHOF than Shanahan. The latter had the more succesfull career, no doubt.

[Dan H]

Interesting. I don't think the HHOF standards of any of us are all that different, although that list has a somewhat wide spread in the strength of candidacy. Voting no on Jagr, Lidstrom, or Chelios would just be nuts, and, well, although Olli Jokinen has had a few all-star seasons and probably deserves a token vote or two for the hall of fame, even those token voters would feel mortified if he actually was voted in. Anyway, not counting some spread in the evaluation of individual players, there seems to be a difference of only a couple of players on that list between my bar and the stricter standards posted. Note I only vaguely ordered the list into clumps of players, so while it was deliberate that Jagr-Chelios-Lidstrom was first and Boyle-Arnott-Jokinen last, Chara's position near the bottom of the Zetterberg-Saint Louis clump wasn't meant to imply the other guys in that clump had better careers.

Although I'd still lean "no" on him, Langenbrunner has a stronger resume than his regular season NHL totals indicate at first glance. He's been a much stronger player in the playoffs, and captained a silver medal winning Olympic squad.

[Zach6668]

Kovalchuk is so underrated. His lowest goal total is 29, in his rookie year. I'd put him in the hall if an injury ended his career today. Assuming one doesn't, he should cruise to 600 goals and probably go well beyond that. He's 29 and already has over 400, and he's better than a point per game.

I'll ignore lack of playoff success when you consider the crappy teams he was stuck with.

Furthermore, because of that lack of playoff success, he has an impressive international resume, and has been the captain of several Russian teams.

Kovy's finishes in goals: 6th, T21st, 6th, 4th, 2nd, 8th, T3rd, 1st, 7th... NHL.com only goes back to 02/03. Also, 6 top-11 point totals, including a 2nd, in the 9 seasons listed on NHL.com.

Also, a 1st and a 2nd team all star selection.

[mikey287]

Very good, Zach, you're bang on. Kovalchuk is a mortal lock, like I said, unless the wheels just completely come off here...and even then, he probably has a good chance...almost certainly a HHOFer, and as I always note, I don't throw that term around lightly...

[canaan]

kinda stunned at the datsyuk opinions.

[mikey287]

kinda stunned at the datsyuk opinions.

Please go on, he's a borderline guy for me...so it's possible I could be swung. I see a player who was/is better than his resume (two top-10 points finishes, 3 Selkes, one 2nd team all-star nod, 2 Cups (important piece to one of them)) but he really struggles to keep his head above water vs. other HHOFers. And unless I'm incorrect, I don't see him improving...he seems like he might be on the twilight of prime...it's a good resume, don't get me wrong...but I'm not sure I see a HHOFer on ink, and I wasn't positive I was watching HHOFer when I saw him (and see him)...

But I'd certainly welcome opinions here, this is a wide-open one for me...

[MRandall25]

I think his play is worthy, but the numbers he puts up don't match the intangibles he provides.

[mikey287]

I think his play is worthy, but the numbers he puts up don't match the intangibles he provides.

So, fair to say: Brind'Amour plus a peak? Or Kovalev plus defense? Neither of which are HHOFers and never will be I don't think, is the "plus" big enough to push him over? I think he might need another a elite season or two to lengthen that prime, personally.