LGP Political Discussion Thread

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tluke53
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by tluke53 »

shafnutz05 wrote:http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/u ... IxXAm37DOM

I know this has been covered, but now it's official. I can't take this anymore........"we are going to tax "cadillac" health care plans to support this crappy bill....well, unless of course those plans are given to people in unions!! After all, they make up a solid part of our voter base..."

This administration is basically favoring certain POLITICAL groups through tax policy, and punishing others through the same. The government using taxes as punitive measures on its citizens....I have never been more proud to be an American.

I am also curious as to how the anti-corporatists in here will view this. IMO, unions are just as powerful if not more powerful than the corporations themselves. They are just as much a threat as the CEOs we are always made out to be so afraid of.

:face: :face: :face:

This is just getting funny now. I wonder if average American’s realize how stupid the health care plan really has become. Here is an analogy. You want a dollar to buy lemonade at your neighbor’s lemonade stand. You go up to your mom and say “Mom I need a dollar". Your mom gives it to you but then reduces your allowance by a dollar. You could have just paid for it with your allowance yourself. Don't people see that they are not solving the problem? They are simply robbing peter to pay paul. This will do nothing but create new problems in other sectors of life. I think I would rather have the "no idea" Repbulicans back in office.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

doublem wrote:http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/
Sunstein advocates that the Government's stealth infiltration should be accomplished by sending covert agents into "chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups." He also proposes that the Government make secret payments to so-called "independent" credible voices to bolster the Government's messaging (on the ground that those who don't believe government sources will be more inclined to listen to those who appear independent while secretly acting on behalf of the Government). This program would target those advocating false "conspiracy theories," which they define to mean: "an attempt to explain an event or practice by reference to the machinations of powerful people, who have also managed to conceal their role." Sunstein's 2008 paper was flagged by this blogger, and then amplified in an excellent report by Raw Story's Daniel Tencer.
:shock: :scared: :shock:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/a ... 47570.html

LRC endorses Greenwald! :scared: ;)
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Geezer »

You can opt out of Obama care by becoming Amish, although I've never heard of them accepting converts. The Amosh will be exempt from buying healthcare just like they are exempt from social security and from the medicare tax. I would think that there would be constitutional grounds for cases if people claimed non-religious moral opposition to being forced to buy health insurance. There's bound to be various legal challenges but with social security and medicare being forced plans my guess is that courts will rule that the Feds can force any kind of heath plan they desire.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

Geezer wrote:You can opt out of Obama care by becoming Amish, although I've never heard of them accepting converts.
There are a few Amish communities in Somerset County, PA, as well as in Garrett County, MD (very near to here) and they do accept converts. I know some Amishmen from working in the area and it's not a simple process. However I don't think they'd accept people who are just looking to avoid government programs - however just and noble an end that may be in and of itself.
The Amosh will be exempt from buying healthcare just like they are exempt from social security and from the medicare tax. I would think that there would be constitutional grounds for cases if people claimed non-religious moral opposition to being forced to buy health insurance. There's bound to be various legal challenges but with social security and medicare being forced plans my guess is that courts will rule that the Feds can force any kind of heath plan they desire.
That's the nature of government, my friend, and they're not going to be hearing about anyone being "unwilling" to heed their commands. You will do as you are told, sir, and you will like it.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Sarcastic »

Guinness wrote:These soft, "Euro-style" socialist states, just like our corporatist state, rely entirely upon an unsustainable doomed-to-collapse inflationist monetary policy and fiat currency, and/or onerous taxation rates - immoral on it's face, full of unforeseen damage to innovation and advancement, and inevitably dependent upon encroachments on civil liberties.
You're for the Libertarian thing from what I remember. Well, just IMO, I'm really not sure such a system would work, simply because if you let people do what they want, they will steal and exploit and rule over others with an iron first. I pretty much see that as Capitalism on steroids. What we've had for the last 10 years, but even more exploitative. I don't see how a modern society can go on without governmental oversight and intervention.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Sarcastic »

Guinness wrote:Regardless of how religions have propogated themselves...

Is it any mystery why the Iranian government came to view the United States as an enemy? Could it have had anything to do with the American government's involvement in placing the Shah? Or is it because the people there have adopted a savage religion?

Is it any mystery why al Qaeda, which grew out of our involvement in the Soviet/Afghan conflict, grew to view the United States as an enemy? No, it isn't - because they told us why. Shockingly, it has nothing to do with "our freedoms".

Our foriegn policy has been that of an empire for 50-100 years. Our government - that benevolent entity that is going to keep us safe or keep us healthy, depending on your point of view - has gone around the world meddling in the internal affairs of foriegn countries in an effort to establish favorable trade relationships, or to establish buffer states from impoverished "enemy" states like Vietnam, or for any other number of benefits to our corporations and/or government. And we sit here in wide-eyed, jaw-gaping wonder when the victims of the Empire lash out... wondering what it is about "our freedoms" that they hate. It's called "blowback", as *they* well know. But *they* continue to propogate this myth that dirt-poor farmers sit around in huts in Afghanistan dreaming up ways to rain terror down on us because of our freedoms. And we buy it. And it keeps the ball rolling...

Edit to add: All of this does not mean that *we* are to blame for terrorism, as is so often the conservative response. It is to say that *they* (the federal government) a responsible for creating the conditions which make us the targets of terrorism.
Totally agree, G.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Sarcastic »

*** Carrie Prejean Alert *** Carrie Prejean Alert *** Carrie Prejean Alert ***

Carrie Prejean bikini nipple slip has been spotted and recorded. Check your usual celebrity website!

*** Carrie Prejean Alert *** Carrie Prejean Alert *** Carrie Prejean Alert ***
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

Sarcastic wrote:I pretty much see that as Capitalism on steroids. What we've had for the last 10 years, but even more exploitative. I don't see how a modern society can go on without governmental oversight and intervention.
I really think capitalism ("laizze-faire", free-markets) has been misunderstood and mischaracterised - probably intentionally. Capitalism is basically you being free to make economic decisions for yourself.

As for the last 10 years, it's been anything but capitalism. The problems have been brewing for a lot longer than a decade, and those problems don't arise without corporations seeking out the coercive power of the state. There are no angels who are going to govern the way you want them to - this is what happens, every time throughout history, with a large, active government.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by doublem »

Guinness wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:I pretty much see that as Capitalism on steroids. What we've had for the last 10 years, but even more exploitative. I don't see how a modern society can go on without governmental oversight and intervention.
I really think capitalism ("laizze-faire", free-markets) has been misunderstood and mischaracterised - probably intentionally. Capitalism is basically you being free to make economic decisions for yourself.

As for the last 10 years, it's been anything but capitalism. The problems have been brewing for a lot longer than a decade, and those problems don't arise without corporations seeking out the coercive power of the state. There are no angels who are going to govern the way you want them to - this is what happens, every time throughout history, with a large, active government.
Question: Do you think that if we had your ideal version or system of Libertarian government that it would all work out in the end? Do you think that we only need to do X,Y and Z to have individual freedom and free markets? Do you see a positive outcome?
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Sarcastic »

Guinness wrote:I really think capitalism ("laizze-faire", free-markets) has been misunderstood and mischaracterised - probably intentionally. Capitalism is basically you being free to make economic decisions for yourself.
Exactly. And what happens is that the rich gain all the power and begin to exploit the poor and the powerless. You're not going to tell me that if everything was deregulated, the rich would give the poor out of the goodness of their heart.

Some people are OK with that. But I hope that anyone who subscribes to that concept is a millionaire like the people they support. Otherwise, is doesn't make sense. It is like the blind loyalty of a peasant to his King, all the while the peasant is a slave and all he has to eat is a turnip.
As for the last 10 years, it's been anything but capitalism. The problems have been brewing for a lot longer than a decade, and those problems don't arise without corporations seeking out the coercive power of the state. There are no angels who are going to govern the way you want them to - this is what happens, every time throughout history, with a large, active government.
It certainly hasn't been Socialism. The reasons I see for why we are in the current state is too much deregulation, too much privatization, too much corporate greed, and all the rest that goes with that. Which was coming for a long time, I agree, but which is really the end result of uncontrolled Capitalism.

The wealthy will only use their power for their benefit. All you have to do is look at today's bankers, Walmart, or just look back 50 or 100 years to see how a common worker was exploited. People mock unions around here, but what unions did is provide at least some rights for such worker.

Anyway, I feel that the only smart choice is to elect talented, honest, people to the government and let them regulate everything. Which is pretty much a hopeless idea at the moment.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01 ... ate-brown/

Chuck Schumer, demonstrating his class once again. Very similar to him calling that flight attendant a b*tch or calling D'Amato a "putzhead". The Democrats are so pissed that Brown has a good chance to absolutely steal a Senate seat in Massachusetts, and they are beside themselves.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by ExPatriatePen »

doublem wrote:
I am also curious as to how the anti-corporatists in here will view this. IMO, unions are just as powerful if not more powerful than the corporations themselves. They are just as much a threat as the CEOs we are always made out to be so afraid of.
That is crazy. Maybe, if all unions were like major league baseball I would agree with you.
You'll defend this sorpupt administration to the very end won't you?

Do you think they're doing *anything* wrong? Where would you like to see them do things differently?
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by bh »

Sarcastic wrote:
Guinness wrote:I really think capitalism ("laizze-faire", free-markets) has been misunderstood and mischaracterised - probably intentionally. Capitalism is basically you being free to make economic decisions for yourself.
Exactly. And what happens is that the rich gain all the power and begin to exploit the poor and the powerless. You're not going to tell me that if everything was deregulated, the rich would give the poor out of the goodness of their heart.

Some people are OK with that. But I hope that anyone who subscribes to that concept is a millionaire like the people they support. Otherwise, is doesn't make sense. It is like the blind loyalty of a peasant to his King, all the while the peasant is a slave and all he has to eat is a turnip.
I think that a lot of people (myself included) sometimes mistake libertarian for anarchist. If the state has a purpose, it is to protect individual liberty. The reason that these "rich" people are so rich is becasue they hijacked the system and make it work for them. Deregulation doesn't mean absence of law. It means taking away those instruments that the rich use to take advantage of the system. The fed works for the rich, not the general population. Congress works for special interests, not to protect individual's liberty. When a law is made these days, it almost always surely benifits some special interest (governmnet, banks, corporations, unions, etc). I would say that the libertarian would only approve of laws that benifit liberty (of all). I think people would have a harder time becoming super rich without the help that the laws now provide.

My problem with this concept is that no matter what people can become corrupted. How can you have a governing body that makes laws that won't be tempted to better their lives by apeasing special interests? Is that possible?
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by bh »

Sarcastic wrote:Anyway, I feel that the only smart choice is to elect talented, honest, people to the government and let them regulate everything. Which is pretty much a hopeless idea at the moment.
haha, this is exactly what I was thinking of right now. That if only somehow honest principled people were elected that things could be better. I agree that it is hopeless right now.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

It amazes me the people in here that endlessly rail against corporate this and corporate that, but absolutely refuse to admit the damage that out-of-control labor unions have wrought on this country's economy. Not to mention the absolutely ridiculous (and I would imagine unconstitutional) sweetheart deal that Obumba and his inner circle gave them in the healthcare debate.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by slappybrown »

OBUMBA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Geezer »

shafnutz05 wrote:It amazes me the people in here that endlessly rail against corporate this and corporate that, but absolutely refuse to admit the damage that out-of-control labor unions have wrought on this country's economy. Not to mention the absolutely ridiculous (and I would imagine unconstitutional) sweetheart deal that Obumba and his inner circle gave them in the healthcare debate.
There's also plenty of greed other than perceived corporate greed. I haven't seen much mention of what is to some extent cases of individual greed. Some tax stats recently on TV showed that taxpayers in the top 1% pay about 40% of taxes (income tax I believe). I'm not shedding tears for the top earners but the next stat indicates to me the motivation of the pro-government spending crowd. The top 50% pay 97% of taxes. It hardly seems that many middle class people aren't being taxed enough. This stat was shown relating to why wouldn't people in the lower 50% favor all kind of government goodies that don't cost them anything. Despite all the soak the rich talk I've never seen government spending programs that didn't hammer the middle class despite all the liberal blather about "helping families" etc. The latest screw job where the Dems are giving union workers a free ride at the expense of non-union members indicates how they shaft the general public to take care of their supporters.

Depending on which state one resides many middle class people pay out a little over 40% of their income in combined taxes. If you throw in the matching social secuity & medicare taxes paid by your employer it is very close to 50%. Why isn't understood that the Obamacare future tax and the cap&trade taxes that the liberals desire basically represent what should be considered socialism. When the worker-drones in the U.S. begin paying out 50% or more of their earnings ,the liberal redistribution of wealth agenda destroys the incentive to work hard and try to get ahead. Shouldn't the free lunch crowd (or at least cheap lunch crowd) also be criticized for greed?
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Geezer »

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01 ... itics%2529" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Latest example of the backroom deals included in Obamacare. The "changed new transparent" politics free from lobbyists.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

bh wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
Guinness wrote:I really think capitalism ("laizze-faire", free-markets) has been misunderstood and mischaracterised - probably intentionally. Capitalism is basically you being free to make economic decisions for yourself.
Exactly. And what happens is that the rich gain all the power and begin to exploit the poor and the powerless. You're not going to tell me that if everything was deregulated, the rich would give the poor out of the goodness of their heart.

Some people are OK with that. But I hope that anyone who subscribes to that concept is a millionaire like the people they support. Otherwise, is doesn't make sense. It is like the blind loyalty of a peasant to his King, all the while the peasant is a slave and all he has to eat is a turnip.
I think that a lot of people (myself included) sometimes mistake libertarian for anarchist. If the state has a purpose, it is to protect individual liberty. The reason that these "rich" people are so rich is becasue they hijacked the system and make it work for them. Deregulation doesn't mean absence of law. It means taking away those instruments that the rich use to take advantage of the system. The fed works for the rich, not the general population. Congress works for special interests, not to protect individual's liberty. When a law is made these days, it almost always surely benifits some special interest (governmnet, banks, corporations, unions, etc). I would say that the libertarian would only approve of laws that benifit liberty (of all). I think people would have a harder time becoming super rich without the help that the laws now provide.

My problem with this concept is that no matter what people can become corrupted. How can you have a governing body that makes laws that won't be tempted to better their lives by apeasing special interests? Is that possible?
:thumb:
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

slappybrown wrote:OBUMBA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Rather than focus on a valid point I made about unions, you decide to sarcastically respond to my play on Obama's name....well done. For the last 12 months, he HAS been bumbling around.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

The Hayek passage from Road to Serfdom I've been intending to post for about a week now ;) :
The point which is so important is the basic fact that it is impossible for any man to survey more than a limited field, to be aware of the urgency of more than a limited number of needs. Whether his interests center round his own physical needs, or whether he takes a warm interest in the welfare of every human being he knows, the ends about which he can be concerned will always be only an infinitesimal fraction of the needs of all men.
This is the fundamental fact on which the whole philosophy of individualism is based. It does not assume, as is often asserted, that man is egoistic or selfish or ought to be. It merely starts from the indisputable fact that the limits of our powers of imagination make it impossible to include in our scale of values more than a sector of the needs of the whole society, and that, since, strictly speaking, scales of value can exist only in individual minds, nothing but partial scales of values exist - scales which are inevitably different and often inconsistent with each other. From this the individualist concludes that the individuals should be allowed, within defined limits, to follow their own values and preferences rather than somebody else's; that within these spheres the individual's system of ends should be supreme and not subject to any dictation by others. it is this recognition of the indivudal as the ultimate judge of his ends, the belief that as far as possible his own views ought to govern his actions, that form the essence of the individualist position.

F.A. Hayek, "The Road to Serfdom"
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

Sarcastic wrote:...
As to the actual causes of our current economic situation, there are a lot of good sources out there that get very little to no run at all in the corporate media. Check out Meltdown, by Thomas Woods. It's a pretty good start. Check out Ron Paul's End the Fed. Check out http://www.mises.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

As bh stated, libertarians aren't necessarily against regulation (there's no agreement, to be sure). I probably fuel some of the confusion around here between libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism because I'm still exploring the philosophy behind my beliefs and this place works as sort of a sounding board in that regard. There IS a difference between what I believe ultimately, where my philosophy ends up, and what I think government should look like in practical terms. For that, I apologize.

You are correct that deregulation (particularly Glass-Steagall) contributed to the recession/depression. So did regulation - the CRA is often cited, but more than that the Federal Reserve Act (1913) is the greatest culprit. Too much corporate greed? Agreed. ;) But how? Corporations sunk their claws into the government. I cannot see in what manner the solution to this problem, then, is MORE government. It is exactly the socially-sanctioned, "legitimate" power of government that they sought. Better government, you might say. Hey, that's great. Wouldn't it be wonderful for this noble, selfless man to emerge and save us (I personally am repulsed by this sort of lack of self-reliance, but for the sake of argument... ;) )? Obama was elected with as much fervent "hope" for "change" in politics as probably any pol in modern history - and look what he's brought you. Expanded wars, expanded encroachments upon your civil liberties (just read the article doublem linked to by Greenwald at Salon on Sunstein's ideas), faux-populist legislation like the health care giveaway...

Even if Obama were the real deal, let me ask you this - what happens when he leaves office? Let's say he came in to office and actually protected you from terrorists and corporations and all the boogie men the right and the left love to cower from. Naturally enough, in order to accomplish this, he would have had to accumulate a fair amount of power in his office. But now it's time for the good and noble man to retire and reflect on the greatest presidency America ever knew... And now someone else is sitting behind that desk, with all that power... (Edit to add: This is EXACTLY what has happened, come to think of it, each and every time we've elected a new president).

Of course, the alternative is that he could just stay in power. I mean, that way we don't have to worry about corrupt politicians taking over, right? That's the swamp in which autocracies are hatched... Read H.J. Laski's "Labour and the Constitution" in the New Statesman and Nation. No, he's not another libertarian crying about big gubmint. He's a 1930's progressive proposing that once the "good" party is elected, they ought not give that power up. And what of those crazies who want to speak out against such a "good" government, and who want the right to gather and oppose it, and vote against it?

As I said before - you cannot have it both ways. Government that "protects" you economically necessarily destroys your civil liberties.


I used to be a pretty dyed-in-the-wool leftist. Counter-arguments were lost on me, because I wouldn't consider them. I wasn't willing to explore the logic behind what I believed. I don't believe in any politician as savior, Ron Paul included. But one thing I have to give him credit for is the 2008 campaign he ran opened my eyes in a lot of ways...
Last edited by Guinness on Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by slappybrown »

shafnutz05 wrote:
slappybrown wrote:OBUMBA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Rather than focus on a valid point I made about unions, you decide to sarcastically respond to my play on Obama's name....well done. For the last 12 months, he HAS been bumbling around.
Because your "valid" point about unions includes, at minimum, one strawman, two broad generalizations, two instances of unnecessary hyperbole, and one unexplained legal accusation.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by slappybrown »

Guinness wrote:The Hayek passage from Road to Serfdom I've been intending to post for about a week now ;) :
The point which is so important is the basic fact that it is impossible for any man to survey more than a limited field, to be aware of the urgency of more than a limited number of needs. Whether his interests center round his own physical needs, or whether he takes a warm interest in the welfare of every human being he knows, the ends about which he can be concerned will always be only an infinitesimal fraction of the needs of all men.
This is the fundamental fact on which the whole philosophy of individualism is based. It does not assume, as is often asserted, that man is egoistic or selfish or ought to be. It merely starts from the indisputable fact that the limits of our powers of imagination make it impossible to include in our scale of values more than a sector of the needs of the whole society, and that, since, strictly speaking, scales of value can exist only in individual minds, nothing but partial scales of values exist - scales which are inevitably different and often inconsistent with each other. From this the individualist concludes that the individuals should be allowed, within defined limits, to follow their own values and preferences rather than somebody else's; that within these spheres the individual's system of ends should be supreme and not subject to any dictation by others. it is this recognition of the indivudal as the ultimate judge of his ends, the belief that as far as possible his own views ought to govern his actions, that form the essence of the individualist position.

F.A. Hayek, "The Road to Serfdom"
Very well put.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

slappybrown wrote:Because your "valid" point about unions includes, at minimum, one strawman, two broad generalizations, two instances of unnecessary hyperbole, and one unexplained legal accusation.
President Obama, Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi just crafted an amendment to their healthcare bill that excludes labor union healthcare plans from being taxed under the bill. However, everyone else that has a similar plan is going to get the hell taxed out of them. End of story. No strawman, no hyperbole.......and an unexplained legal accusation? Do you really think that favoring one group over another through tax policy is not unconstitutional? The fact that he is doing it because they represent a large Democratic voting bloc is even more inexcusable. I cannot fathom how you could defend this.