LGP Political Discussion Thread

[Guinness]

What is wrong with figuring something out for yourself? What do you have against self-respect and self-reliance? And yet again, the inflated costs of medical and health insurance are a direct result of the very things YOU advocate. And yet here you are demanding that the rest of us pay the bills that you are both directly and indirectly responsible for.

What is this some meaning of life question? This isn't philosophy. If someone gets cancer and they don't have insurance they are screwed. This is a practical problem of people not having money to pay bills. I'm sure people y are trying to figure it out the best they can but some problems don't have easy solutions. What do you live on the outback? Self- Reliance? Do you kill your own food? This is 21st century America not the 1700s. Most people work for some type of major company. How many problems are you indirectly and directly responsible for, I would like to find out so we can send all the sick people a card becasue you think paying taxes is theft and interfering with your freedom.

You know, I used to think that people like you were well-intentioned but misguided. I'm no longer willing to give you that pass.

Your philosophy is destructive and evil.

[doublem]

I'm tired of this conservative/ Libertarian mindset that think they can bend metal and pick up boats with will power and rugged individualism. Please, you most likely lived in the burbs your entire life in the 1980s. Its just another way of keeping people in line by not questioning why the system really sucks.

Do me a favor - don't make presumptions about my circumstances. You have no notion whatsoever what I've encountered in my life that have shaped my views. None.

Your understanding of libertarianism is seriously, seriously flawed.

Edit to add: Don't make any presumptions about my current circumstances, either.

Frankly, these comments of yours are disgusting, and reveal your level arrogance, which explains your advocacy of such a paternalistic political/economic system.

Thanks. But since I wasn't talking about YOU, okay, I was making a general point. I should think you should do the same.

[Guinness]

I'm tired of this conservative/ Libertarian mindset that think they can bend metal and pick up boats with will power and rugged individualism. Please, you most likely lived in the burbs your entire life in the 1980s. Its just another way of keeping people in line by not questioning why the system really sucks.

Do me a favor - don't make presumptions about my circumstances. You have no notion whatsoever what I've encountered in my life that have shaped my views. None.

Your understanding of libertarianism is seriously, seriously flawed.

Edit to add: Don't make any presumptions about my current circumstances, either.

Frankly, these comments of yours are disgusting, and reveal your level arrogance, which explains your advocacy of such a paternalistic political/economic system.

Thanks. But since I wasn't talking about YOU, okay, I was making a general point. I should think you should do the same.

I've made no presumptions about you - I've responded to things you have specifically posted.

[Guinness]

What is wrong with figuring something out for yourself? What do you have against self-respect and self-reliance? And yet again, the inflated costs of medical and health insurance are a direct result of the very things YOU advocate. And yet here you are demanding that the rest of us pay the bills that you are both directly and indirectly responsible for.

What is this some meaning of life question? This isn't philosophy. If someone gets cancer and they don't have insurance they are screwed. This is a practical problem of people not having money to pay bills. I'm sure people y are trying to figure it out the best they can but some problems don't have easy solutions. What do you live on the outback? Self- Reliance? Do you kill your own food? This is 21st century America not the 1700s. Most people work for some type of major company. How many problems are you indirectly and directly responsible for, I would like to find out so we can send all the sick people a card becasue you think paying taxes is theft and interfering with your freedom.

the inflated costs of medical and health insurance are a direct result of the very things YOU advocate. And yet here you are demanding that the rest of us pay the bills that you are both directly and indirectly responsible for.

You're the one who should be sending them cards... your money, actually.

[doublem]

Not you as in Guinness but the group. The people that support American macho myths.

[Guinness]

Not you as in Guinness but the group. The people that support American macho myths.

If by "macho myths" you mean libertarianism, then I fit, in this instance, into this little "group" of yours.

So, again, mind your presumptions.

[doublem]

Not you as in Guinness but the group. The people that support American macho myths.

If by "macho myths" you mean libertarianism, then I fit, in this instance, into this little "group" of yours.

So, again, mind your presumptions.

I don't have a problem with libertarianism. It's just a philosophy. I do with Randism and those are the people that usually promote that kind of talk. The only problem I have with libertarianism is the religious type zeal and moral absolutism that its followers claim to have and the unproven theories behind it.

[Gaucho]

Socialism encourages in people a lack of self respect, and a lack of dignity.

Respectfully disagree.

[Guinness]

The only problem I have with libertarianism is the religious type zeal and moral absolutism that its followers claim to have and the unproven theories behind it.

By my philosophy, you are free to live as you please, to spend your money as you please, to give to charities as you please, etc. By your philosophy, we are obligated to give our money to be distributed as YOU (or your selected betters) see fit.

And yet, I'm the absolutist?

[doublem]

The only problem I have with libertarianism is the religious type zeal and moral absolutism that its followers claim to have and the unproven theories behind it.

By my philosophy, you are free to live as you please, to spend your money as you please, to give to charities as you please, etc. By your philosophy, we are obligated to give our money to be distributed as YOU (or your selected betters) see fit.

And yet, I'm the absolutist?

No, becasue you think you have the truth in your belief. As the one and only truth. You say you are free but as soon as someone uses that freedom to do something that isn't in your philosophy; done for. It's the same argument religious people use. Anyone that doesn't share that belief is cast aside( like into hell) It's either all or nothing. You either support theft or not. Not much room for movement. It's also a worship at the foot of the all knowing market( God).

[Guinness]

The only problem I have with libertarianism is the religious type zeal and moral absolutism that its followers claim to have and the unproven theories behind it.

By my philosophy, you are free to live as you please, to spend your money as you please, to give to charities as you please, etc. By your philosophy, we are obligated to give our money to be distributed as YOU (or your selected betters) see fit.

And yet, I'm the absolutist?

No, becasue you think you have the truth in your belief.

I can understand how that makes you uncomfortable.

You say you are free but as soon as someone uses that freedom to do something that isn't in your philosophy; done for.

Example, strawman?

You either support theft or not.

Quite right. Again, if there is some concept that explains the forced confiscation of the product of one's labor, I'm all ears.

It's also a worship at the foot of the all knowing market( God).

Once again:

By your philosophy, we are obligated to give our money to be distributed as YOU (or your selected betters) see fit.

And yet, I'm the absolutist?

Guess I'd rather "worship at the foot of the all-knowing market" than worship at your feet.

[shafnutz05]

It amazes me how working for corporate America is viewed by some people as slavery or "serving our masters". I never thought I would see the day when so many people view hard-working people with decent or well-paying jobs as slaves. The hatred directed at the free market system is also astounding to me. I have the free market to thank for my job and my income. If our healthcare system is nationalized, I will probably lose my job. The bitterness and hatred towards the capitalist system is, quite frankly, poisonous. I'll take an imperfect free market over a "perfect" socialist utopia any day.

[Guinness]

It amazes me how working for corporate America is viewed by some people as slavery or "serving our masters"

Don't you realize you're not allowed to leave that job? You have no freedom to find other gainful employment, perhaps even start your own business. You are a slave to the corporation you work for. Indentured. physically shackled to you cubicle. They can sell you to another corporation if they want. Make you move away from your family and go work for Prudential in San Francisco. If you work for a corporation, you're a slave, Slave.

Of course, when doublem and those of his ilk get their way and you learn that you have a "right" to a job, this little piece of sarcasm may be more accurate than not.

[Shyster]

Okay, I will make that money come from the sky. I will just will power myself not to get sick anymore. I know in the tough- guy- rugged individualism-cowboy- Ayn Rand- utopia- Shyster world money just falls from the sky but in my world when I'm sick it shouldn't matter and would be nice to not pay outrageous medical bills. Like all those other countries that have passed up the U.S. in the world, ah must be a bunch of wussy liberals. More and more people can't afford insurance and more keep dying but let's try be a tough guy. Hey, do you get any duals lately? Thinking like that is why this country sucks and will never get any better becasue middle class, I'm assuming you are middle class defend the corporate owners of this country. It would be nice if people like you could make a argument that didn't involve boot straps. You suffer from the Male Disease. Just keep watching the "real world" as your country and thinking like yours keeps slipping and slipping far before the rest of world. As the middle class keeps having meaningless arguments like you try to make and the owners take more and more of the money.

You fail at Adult. You went to the ER without insurance and now have some debts. An adult would come up with a plan to get more money and pay off that debt, not whine about life being unfair because you can’t force unrelated others to take care of you.

An adult would do some or all of these. First, call the medical provider and ask to set up a payment plan. Tell them they can dun you all they want or send you to collections, but they can’t get blood from a stone. Tell them you don’t want any reduction, just the ability to pay over time. Get a deal. Second, bust your butt on the income front. Get a second, third, whatever job. Deliver pizzas. Stock grocery shelves at night. Shovel driveways in your neighborhood. Work the midnight shift a Taco Bell. Get your income up. Third, cut all luxuries and reduce expenses. Live on rice, beans, and mac & cheese. Eliminate subscriptions and unnecessary services. Drink? Smoke? Quit; it’s too expensive. Fourth, sell anything you can. Take anything not necessary to live and put in on ebay. Got a car? Sell it, buy a junker for less, and use the difference to pay off your debt.

Money doesn’t fall from the sky. It would be worthless if it did. You have to earn it. That you don’t want to earn it will not change that fact. Grow up.

Edit: And I did just give you some charity. It took me about 12 minutes to draft the above. My time is worth $155/hour, so that's $31 worth of free advice to you. You're welcome.

[PensFanInDC]

Okay, I will make that money come from the sky. I will just will power myself not to get sick anymore. I know in the tough- guy- rugged individualism-cowboy- Ayn Rand- utopia- Shyster world money just falls from the sky but in my world when I'm sick it shouldn't matter and would be nice to not pay outrageous medical bills. Like all those other countries that have passed up the U.S. in the world, ah must be a bunch of wussy liberals. More and more people can't afford insurance and more keep dying but let's try be a tough guy. Hey, do you get any duals lately? Thinking like that is why this country sucks and will never get any better becasue middle class, I'm assuming you are middle class defend the corporate owners of this country. It would be nice if people like you could make a argument that didn't involve boot straps. You suffer from the Male Disease. Just keep watching the "real world" as your country and thinking like yours keeps slipping and slipping far before the rest of world. As the middle class keeps having meaningless arguments like you try to make and the owners take more and more of the money.

You fail at Adult. You went to the ER without insurance and now have some debts. An adult would come up with a plan to get more money and pay off that debt, not whine about life being unfair because you can’t force unrelated others to take care of you.

An adult would do some or all of these. First, call the medical provider and ask to set up a payment plan. Tell them they can dun you all they want or send you to collections, but they can’t get blood from a stone. Tell them you don’t want any reduction, just the ability to pay over time. Get a deal. Second, bust your butt on the income front. Get a second, third, whatever job. Deliver pizzas. Stock grocery shelves at night. Shovel driveways in your neighborhood. Work the midnight shift a Taco Bell. Get your income up. Third, cut all luxuries and reduce expenses. Live on rice, beans, and mac & cheese. Eliminate subscriptions and unnecessary services. Drink? Smoke? Quit; it’s too expensive. Fourth, sell anything you can. Take anything not necessary to live and put in on ebay. Got a car? Sell it, buy a junker for less, and use the difference to pay off your debt.

Money doesn’t fall from the sky. It would be worthless if it did. You have to earn it. That you don’t want to earn it will not change that fact. Grow up.

Edit: And I did just give you some charity. It took me about 12 minutes to draft the above. My time is worth $155/hour, so that's $31 worth of free advice to you. You're welcome.

[thehockeyguru]

Okay, I will make that money come from the sky. I will just will power myself not to get sick anymore. I know in the tough- guy- rugged individualism-cowboy- Ayn Rand- utopia- Shyster world money just falls from the sky but in my world when I'm sick it shouldn't matter and would be nice to not pay outrageous medical bills. Like all those other countries that have passed up the U.S. in the world, ah must be a bunch of wussy liberals. More and more people can't afford insurance and more keep dying but let's try be a tough guy. Hey, do you get any duals lately? Thinking like that is why this country sucks and will never get any better becasue middle class, I'm assuming you are middle class defend the corporate owners of this country. It would be nice if people like you could make a argument that didn't involve boot straps. You suffer from the Male Disease. Just keep watching the "real world" as your country and thinking like yours keeps slipping and slipping far before the rest of world. As the middle class keeps having meaningless arguments like you try to make and the owners take more and more of the money.

You fail at Adult. You went to the ER without insurance and now have some debts. An adult would come up with a plan to get more money and pay off that debt, not whine about life being unfair because you can’t force unrelated others to take care of you.

An adult would do some or all of these. First, call the medical provider and ask to set up a payment plan. Tell them they can dun you all they want or send you to collections, but they can’t get blood from a stone. Tell them you don’t want any reduction, just the ability to pay over time. Get a deal. Second, bust your butt on the income front. Get a second, third, whatever job. Deliver pizzas. Stock grocery shelves at night. Shovel driveways in your neighborhood. Work the midnight shift a Taco Bell. Get your income up. Third, cut all luxuries and reduce expenses. Live on rice, beans, and mac & cheese. Eliminate subscriptions and unnecessary services. Drink? Smoke? Quit; it’s too expensive. Fourth, sell anything you can. Take anything not necessary to live and put in on ebay. Got a car? Sell it, buy a junker for less, and use the difference to pay off your debt.

Money doesn’t fall from the sky. It would be worthless if it did. You have to earn it. That you don’t want to earn it will not change that fact. Grow up.

Edit: And I did just give you some charity. It took me about 12 minutes to draft the above. My time is worth $155/hour, so that's $31 worth of free advice to you. You're welcome.

[Guinness]

Great post, Shyster. Just one problem with it...

Money doesn’t fall from the sky.

You obviously haven't met ol' 'Helicopter' Ben:

[ExPatriatePen]

My time is worth $155/hour...

Shyster... you have to quit giving your services away so cheaply... LOL... I'm paying $350 an hour to my mouthpiece up here in NY!

[Geezer]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/12 ... ambitions/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Leave it to Jimmy. I never fail to underestimate what a completely hypocritical piece of crap Carter is. Now he decides to apologize to Jews since his grandson is now going to run for office. He'll continue his role as a Hamas lapdog but now he's rethinking some of the language he used. He's had a real run from worst U.S. president to worst U.S. ex-president.

[Shyster]

Shyster... you have to quit giving your services away so cheaply... LOL... I'm paying $350 an hour to my mouthpiece up here in NY!

As an associate, I don't set my own rates. I can say that Pittsburgh lawyers cost way less than NY lawyers (especially NYC lawyers). I don't think any of the shareholders in my firm charge $350, let alone any of the associates. You'd need to go to someplace like Reed Smith or K&L to pay that much.

[doublem]

Well gee Shyster thanks for the advice. All very helpful and informed thoughts. Next time someone gets sick and can't get insurance becasue they have a pre existing condition I will tell them they aren't being adult enough and maybe the cancer will stop spreading and after they get out of the hospital we can ship them off to work the night shift at Taco Bell to start paying back that debt. How does that sound to you? And all this time I thought we could find another way to pay for all this maybe that model that the rest of the world as been following for some time? Maybe something that didn't turn the sick into indentured servants. Nah, working at Taco Bell and shoveling sidewalks seems more reasonable.

[PensFanInDC]

Nah, working at Taco Bell and shoveling sidewalks seems more reasonable.

Are you above working these jobs?

[doublem]

The bitterness and hatred towards the capitalist system is, quite frankly, poisonous. I'll take an imperfect free market over a "perfect" socialist utopia any day.

Since nothing in this country really even remotely resembles capitalism or competition. I'm waiting for that day.

[doublem]

Nah, working at Taco Bell and shoveling sidewalks seems more reasonable.

Are you above working these jobs?

No. I would if I had to and have had "bad" jobs but the thinking of Shyster and that mentality is ridiculous. Hard working middle-class people that work two, maybe more jobs and still can't affordable health care, and when they do get sick can get kicked off becasue they have pre existing conditions and the answer is to get more jobs to pay for this crap, and not do see the real problem, a fundamentally flawed and decaying system.

[doublem]

Guess I'd rather "worship at the foot of the all-knowing market" than worship at your feet.

Whether you want to admit it or not. If we let the market decide everything you would be worshiping at someones feet that would have a lot more power. For someone that is always on the look out for government abuses you sure seem to ignore private tyranny.