LGP Political Discussion Thread

[shafnutz05]

Homer, good catch. Hillary and Bill's plan was primarily concerned with private insurers, so I stand corrected. I still say that the more liberal wing of the Democratic party has always wanted a single-payer system, and only know see the potential for actually getting it done.

[Shyster]

Except the numbers are probably cooked. Does the 2 % margin include the money health insurers put into their "reserve funds"? Because I would guess not. Highmark, for example, has a $4-$5 billion dollar reserve fund. I think their revenues were around $12 billion last year. Also keep in mind that your two percent profit margin is, using Highmark's numbers, a net profit of $240 million. This isn't to say they shouldn' make money, or they should be taxed at 90%, or that we need a public option (to be honest, I have no idea how to "fix" healthcare, and wont even pretend to know what the current proposal is really going to do/change). I am just posting these numbers because the notion that insurers aren't making money hand over fist is clearly wrong.

But Highmark is already a non-profit insurer that doesn't pay any taxes. Highmark has no shareholders or investors. Nobody gets a dividend check and the end of the quarter or the year. In fact, Highmark and the other Blues as they exist right now operate in the same manner as a not-driven-by-the-profit-motive “public option” company would be expected to operate. And people are unhappy with them.

Also, insurers are required by law to maintain reserve funds. One could argue that the fund is too large, but they must to have one. I recall that in the last couple years one of the Blues in, IIRC, the upper Midwest issued refund checks to its customers because it decided its reserve fund was too large.

[slappybrown]

Except the numbers are probably cooked. Does the 2 % margin include the money health insurers put into their "reserve funds"? Because I would guess not. Highmark, for example, has a $4-$5 billion dollar reserve fund. I think their revenues were around $12 billion last year. Also keep in mind that your two percent profit margin is, using Highmark's numbers, a net profit of $240 million. This isn't to say they shouldn' make money, or they should be taxed at 90%, or that we need a public option (to be honest, I have no idea how to "fix" healthcare, and wont even pretend to know what the current proposal is really going to do/change). I am just posting these numbers because the notion that insurers aren't making money hand over fist is clearly wrong.

But Highmark is already a non-profit insurer that doesn't pay any taxes. Highmark has no shareholders or investors. Nobody gets a dividend check and the end of the quarter or the year. In fact, Highmark and the other Blues as they exist right now operate in the same manner as a not-driven-by-the-profit-motive “public option” company would be expected to operate. And people are unhappy with them.

Also, insurers are required by law to maintain reserve funds. One could argue that the fund is too large, but they must to have one. I recall that in the last couple years one of the Blues in, IIRC, the upper Midwest issued refund checks to its customers because it decided its reserve fund was too large.

Right, I know they have to maintain them, but their size is a huge issue. They got hammered on it when they tried to do the IBC merger. I just used Highmark as an example as I am more familiar with them. But I am sure the for profits maintain similarly huge reserve accounts.

[doublem]

Are insurers making money? Absolutely. There is nothing wrong with that. That is how the market works. Is two percent probably a lowball figure? Sure. I think the 6-9% numbers that I found are much closer to the actual figure. But again, despite the political grandstanding by the Dems, these numbers are hardly "obscene".

Like I pointed out yesterday....everyone can agree that competition would drive down costs considerably, correct? And this, in turn, would drive down these margins and force the companies to have competitive rates? Yet, I think it's intriguing that the Democrats have outright refused to accept any legislation from the Republicans that allows for more competition within the market, thus resulting in better costs and coverage for us. Of course, if they would let the problem solve itself within the market, that would put a kink in their plan to execute their hostile takeover of the entire industry.

And the Democrats keep on saying that the Republicans are "The Party of No", and they refuse to offer any solutions to the crisis. And sadly, the "investigative" media lets them get away with it time and time again.

What? What? What market? What competition? What are you talking about? They health care companies don't want competition. Stocks exploded today. They basically wrote the bill and you are worried about them. Seriously? They could care less about coverage for us, it doesn't suit them to get "us" coverage, actually I'm talking about me since I'm assuming you already have insurance. Another spirited defense of our owners.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Investors are seeing the Senate's version of health care reform as a massive public subsidy for insurance companies -- and as a result, are sending the sector's stock prices shooting up, up, up. . . . Stripped of a government-run insurance plan, the bill would give tens of millions of Americans no option but to start paying hefty premiums to private companies.

[shafnutz05]

doublem, you missed my other post. I was marveling that the Democrats constantly accuse the Republicans of being in bed with "Big Insurance", yet not one Republican voted for a bill that hands over more power to the private insurance industry than we have seen in recent history. It's ironic, isn't it?

[doublem]

I don't know but who is going to pay my medical bills since I can't get insurance with the job I have. You want me to beg my neighbors and find out about that great American generosity, oh I guess I'm not working hard enough.

Are you freaking serious? You will. You. Pay your own bills. I pay mine; you pay yours. You.

Glad to see you finally cowboyed up and got a "real job." It is real, yes? Well, in the real world, with real exprenses, you are responsible for paying them yourself. Really. The rest of the world is not obliged to stand in for your mommy and daddy, to wipe your butt and put band-aids on your skinned knees. Pay. Your. Own. D**n. Bills.

Okay, I will make that money come from the sky. I will just will power myself not to get sick anymore. I know in the tough- guy- rugged individualism-cowboy- Ayn Rand- utopia- Shyster world money just falls from the sky but in my world when I'm sick it shouldn't matter and would be nice to not pay outrageous medical bills. Like all those other countries that have passed up the U.S. in the world, ah must be a bunch of wussy liberals. More and more people can't afford insurance and more keep dying but let's try be a tough guy. Hey, do you get any duals lately? Thinking like that is why this country sucks and will never get any better becasue middle class, I'm assuming you are middle class defend the corporate owners of this country. It would be nice if people like you could make a argument that didn't involve boot straps. You suffer from the Male Disease. Just keep watching the "real world" as your country and thinking like yours keeps slipping and slipping far before the rest of world. As the middle class keeps having meaningless arguments like you try to make and the owners take more and more of the money.

[doublem]

doublem, you missed my other post. I was marveling that the Democrats constantly accuse the Republicans of being in bed with "Big Insurance", yet not one Republican voted for a bill that hands over more power to the private insurance industry than we have seen in recent history. It's ironic, isn't it?

No, becasue the Rep. are out in the open with not caring about the health care issues in this country, the Dems just pretend they care.

[shafnutz05]

doublem, again, I understand where you are coming from. There are some rock-solid insurance plans out there that are relatively cheap....my wife is in one through Vanguard. What Obama needs to do is invite the CEOs of these companies to the White House and discuss how we can make it more affordable to everyone, whether it's through moderate reform or something else. The problem is, he has no interest in doing this.

[doublem]

I really don't know why all of these liberals are getting into a tizzy over the lack of a public option in the Senate bill.

Um becasue it's a gift to private insurance and who are these liberals you are talking about?

Do you REALLY think that Nancy Pelosi/Harry Reid/Barack Obama are going to let a bill pass that completely shuts the door on the opportunity for a government-run single payer system?

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/bara ... ama_public" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes. Obama doesn't care about a PO.

"I didn't campaign on the public option"

How long do you think private insurers are going to be able to stay in business?

LOL. Are they struggling. This is crazy talk. Profits keep going up.

By any modern standard, that is a pretty measly profit. Yet, the Democrats tell us that the private insurers are taking advantage of us and making these obscene profits, when they really aren't.

That's not true. What world do you live in again? I will direct you to this man again. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendell_Potter" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So what are they doing? In this bill, they are placing downright ridiculous requirements on insurance companies. Essentially, not only are they going to be forced to cover "preexisting conditions",

Good? What? They shouldn't have to?

So what happens when these insurance companies go bankrupt?

Meet me in that mythical world.

They will only be happy when there is NO competition

Yep, and that is why they passed this bill.

which effectively allows private business but enacts measures that make it impossible to succeed, are a veiled, dangerous form of fascism.

Yep, its fascism alright.

[doublem]

doublem, again, I understand where you are coming from. There are some rock-solid insurance plans out there that are relatively cheap....my wife is in one through Vanguard. What Obama needs to do is invite the CEOs of these companies to the White House and discuss how we can make it more affordable to everyone, whether it's through moderate reform or something else. The problem is, he has no interest in doing this.

No, see this is the problem Obama doesn't have to sit down and ask permission becasue they don't care. They couldn't care less, it means less money for them. He needs to tell them what to do or face huge tax increases. He needs to drop the hammer, not ask permission. You are right Obama has no interest in doing any time of reform, none that matters.

[HomerPenguin]

How long do you think private insurers are going to be able to stay in business?
...
This, among with other restrictions, are intended to completely bankrupt the private insurance industry.

I was marveling that the Democrats constantly accuse the Republicans of being in bed with "Big Insurance", yet not one Republican voted for a bill that hands over more power to the private insurance industry than we have seen in recent history.

Am I the only one who can't figure out how to make these two sentiments correspond with one another? The Democrats, in their effort to put private insurance out of business, handed over "more power to the private insurance industry" than has been handed to them "in recent history," and in doing so is going to ensure the bankruptcy of that industry. Have the underpants gnomes taken over the Democratic Party?

[Guinness]

Glad to see you finally cowboyed up and got a "real job." It is real, yes? Well, in the real world, with real exprenses, you are responsible for paying them yourself. Really. The rest of the world is not obliged to stand in for your mommy and daddy, to wipe your butt and put band-aids on your skinned knees. Pay. Your. Own. D**n. Bills.

Okay, I will make that money come from the sky. I will just will power myself not to get sick anymore. I know in the tough- guy- rugged individualism-cowboy- Ayn Rand- utopia- Shyster world money just falls from the sky but in my world when I'm sick it shouldn't matter and would be nice to not pay outrageous medical bills. Like all those other countries that have passed up the U.S. in the world, ah must be a bunch of wussy liberals. More and more people can't afford insurance and more keep dying but let's try be a tough guy. Hey, do you get any duals lately? Thinking like that is why this country sucks and will never get any better becasue middle class, I'm assuming you are middle class defend the corporate owners of this country. It would be nice if people like you could make a argument that didn't involve boot straps. You suffer from the Male Disease. Just keep watching the "real world" as your country and thinking like yours keeps slipping and slipping far before the rest of world. As the middle class keeps having meaningless arguments like you try to make and the owners take more and more of the money.

I'll agree with you that medical and health insurance costs are relatively too high. They're too high, naturally, due to over-regulation of these markets and our monetary inflation policy which has driven prices across the board; but of course you're in favor of both stifling regulation and monetary inflation. These things, coupled with the pervasive belief that we each are owed something by everyone else (an obviously unsustainable concept) that you so vigourously put on display here, and which has both given us and sustained the welfare-warfare State, are what is stifling individual growth and general human betterment here and 'round the world, borders be damned.

And, parenthetically, Shyster's comments aren't anything about "boot straps" or being a "tough guy"; they're about having enough bloody self-respect, dignity and honor about yourself to not go around begging, "WHO is going to pay MY bills?", and to deal with your problems like a full-grown adult, like so many of us who - yes - have faced some real hard times, and some real injustices.

[doublem]

And, parenthetically, Shyster's comments aren't anything about "boot straps" or being a "tough guy"; they're about having enough bloody self-respect, dignity and honor about yourself to not go around begging, "WHO is going to pay MY bills?", and to deal with your problems like a full-grown adult, like so many of us who - yes - have faced some real hard times, and some real injustices.

Well for the record I am paying for my OWN bills. But that's not that point. The point is people in this country a lot people, I might add are a lot worse off then me and are having trouble paying medical bills and the answer you get is "well figure it out yourself" when it doesn't have to be that way. To add to that these people probably had someone pay for something that they had at one point or another. I'm tired of this conservative/ Libertarian mindset that think they can bend metal and pick up boats with will power and rugged individualism. Please, you most likely lived in the burbs your entire life in the 1980s. Its just another way of keeping people in line by not questioning why the system really sucks. I also like how the American worker is always made the scapegoat when it comes to a situation like this. These are people that have turned self-righteous after they make it to a certain pay scale. Anyways I though you people were big on begging? Aren't you all for charity?

[Gaucho]

These are people that have turned self-righteous after they make it to a certain pay scale.

[shafnutz05]

These are people that have turned self-righteous after they make it to a certain pay scale.

Don't turn this into class warfare BS. My mom raised my sister and I on a sub-$30k salary, and she always railed against rampant, out-of-control social welfare programs. She was a factor in the beliefs I have today. So don't just sit there arguing that I just formed this opinion somewhere after the $35-$40k a year payscale. That is a pretty ignorant statement

[doublem]

These are people that have turned self-righteous after they make it to a certain pay scale.

Don't turn this into class warfare BS. My mom raised my sister and I on a sub-$30k salary, and she always railed against rampant, out-of-control social welfare programs. She was a factor in the beliefs I have today. So don't just sit there arguing that I just formed this opinion somewhere after the $35-$40k a year payscale. That is a pretty ignorant statement

No, it's really more of a middle class war. Once these kids grow and get the paycheck and the house. They forget about everything and start calling the younger generations wussies when they were most likely in the same position not that long ago, so they can show off how independent they are and how much determination they have.

[shafnutz05]

Anyways I though you people were big on begging? Aren't you all for charity?

"You people"........I think that tone says it all. My wife and I donated around 5% of our salary this year. Is that not enough?

[shafnutz05]

No, it's really more of a middle class war. Once these kids grow and get the paycheck and the house. They forget about everything and start calling the younger generations wussies when they were most likely in the same position not that long ago, so they can show off how independent they are and how much determination they have.

I remember full-well the shaky financial situation I was in. It still affects me to this day (literally). For me, this argument is a lot more about the role of government than my personal views on charity and helping out people in trouble.

[Guinness]

Well for the record I am paying for my OWN bills. But that's not that point.

As a matter of fact, it is. See your response to Shyster.

The point is people in this country a lot people, I might add are a lot worse off then me and are having trouble paying medical bills and the answer you get is "well figure it out yourself" when it doesn't have to be that way.

What is wrong with figuring something out for yourself? What do you have against self-respect and self-reliance? And yet again, the inflated costs of medical and health insurance are a direct result of the very things YOU advocate. And yet here you are demanding that the rest of us pay the bills that you are both directly and indirectly responsible for.

To add that these people probably had someone pay for something that they had at one point or another. These are people that have turned self-righteous after they got there's.

Anyways I though you people were big on begging? Aren't you all for charity?

I am, absolutely. If you came to me and asked me for help, I would absolutely do what I could. But you don't do that. You demand it.

[doublem]

Anyways I though you people were big on begging? Aren't you all for charity?

"You people"........I think that tone says it all. My wife and I donated around 5% of our salary this year. Is that not enough?

The argument from people on the right is always "it's our money, don't take my money" "it's my hard earned money", so when people have out of control bills and taxation isn't an option when else is left then to beg your neighbor for money? Sure, charity works but lets see how it works when you ask someone to live with them for a extended period when they can't pay the bills.

[Guinness]

I'm tired of this conservative/ Libertarian mindset that think they can bend metal and pick up boats with will power and rugged individualism. Please, you most likely lived in the burbs your entire life in the 1980s. Its just another way of keeping people in line by not questioning why the system really sucks.

Do me a favor - don't make presumptions about my circumstances. You have no notion whatsoever what I've encountered in my life that have shaped my views. None.

Your understanding of libertarianism is seriously, seriously flawed.

Edit to add: Don't make any presumptions about my current circumstances, either.

Frankly, these comments of yours are disgusting, and reveal your level arrogance, which explains your advocacy of such a paternalistic political/economic system.

[Gaucho]

It's easy to lecture others about self-respect and dignity, but those are things that, unfortunately, not everyone can afford, pun intended. Capitalism doesn't give a poop about self-respect and dignity, on the contrary, it teaches people to be ashamed of themselves if they don't make it, even if the reasons for their "failure" are out of their control.

[Guinness]

The argument from people on the right is always "it's our money, don't take my money" "it's my hard earned money",

To whom else does it belong?

[Guinness]

It's easy to lecture others about self-respect and dignity

As a matter of fact, it's not.

but those are things that, unfortunately, not everyone can afford, pun intended. Capitalism doesn't give a poop about self-respect and dignity,

And the alternative, socialism, does?! You're right - capitalism doesn't care about self-respect... it's an economic system, not a moral system.

Socialism encourages in people a lack of self respect, and a lack of dignity.

on the contrary, it teaches people to be ashamed of themselves if they don't make it, even if the reasons for their "failure" are out of their control.

It does no such thing. Capitalism is simply a free economic model. It doesn't "teach" any assumptions about anyone.

[doublem]

What is wrong with figuring something out for yourself? What do you have against self-respect and self-reliance? And yet again, the inflated costs of medical and health insurance are a direct result of the very things YOU advocate. And yet here you are demanding that the rest of us pay the bills that you are both directly and indirectly responsible for.

What is this some meaning of life question? This isn't philosophy. If someone gets cancer and they don't have insurance they are screwed. This is a practical problem of people not having money to pay bills. I'm sure people y are trying to figure it out the best they can but some problems don't have easy solutions. What do you live on the outback? Self- Reliance? Do you kill your own food? This is 21st century America not the 1700s. Most people work for some type of major company. How many problems are you indirectly and directly responsible for, I would like to find out so we can send all the sick people a card becasue you think paying taxes is theft and interfering with your freedom.