LGP Political Discussion Thread

[cs6687]

If you are a human being born on this planet you have the right to food, shelter, clothing and some type of health care to keep on living if you get sick. Of course this isn't always the case becasue other humans try to control one another but all people should have these things. I also like how these people throw god around but don't think it's a right to have food. What kind of god would be like that? The judge like most people that think like him value property over people.

Disagree. Yes, in a perfect world, it would be great if everyone could have those things. But those things are privileges, not rights. You work to get those things. If everyone got everything by not working, the work ethic and drive to better yourself dies. Food, shelter, clothing, and health care coverage are to be earned, not given. Of course, some people don't have the means to get those things, and there's nothing wrong with the charities that help gather to provide those things. But food, shelter, and clothing should not be given to everybody just for the sake of everyone having those things.

[Guinness]

If you are a human being born on this planet you have the right to food, shelter, clothing and some type of health care to keep on living if you get sick. Of course this isn't always the case becasue other humans try to control one another but all people should have these things. I also like how these people throw god around but don't think it's a right to have food. What kind of god would be like that? The judge like most people that think like him value property over people.

I like how you throw the word "rights" around without any apparent understand of it's meaning...

Coming from an advocate of theft, I find your righteous indignation amusing. I don't value property over people. I just don't believe in stealing - which is the only method by which you can declare health care, and by extension food, shelter, clothing, etc., to be a right. I agree that all people *should* have these things. I believe (actively) in assisting people when they do not have these things. But I don't believe they, nor I, have the right to put a gun to your head and demand that you do the same. I actually respect their life (by not initiating force against them), their liberty (by not restricting their movement), and their property (by not stealing it). None of this even begins to address, I might add, the less morally relevant question implicit in your declaration of rights; that being, by who's/what standard is food, shelter, clothing, and health care provided?

[ExPatriatePen]

If you are a human being born on this planet you have the right to food, shelter, clothing and some type of health care to keep on living if you get sick. Of course this isn't always the case becasue other humans try to control one another but all people should have these things. I also like how these people throw god around but don't think it's a right to have food. What kind of god would be like that? The judge like most people that think like him value property over people.

I've got a mortgage payment, food bills, and doctors bills that need paying... I expect that you'll be settling my accounts tomorrow?

I've worked my butt off for 34 years... I'm tired. I think I'll let everyone else pay my bills from now on.... thanks!

(BtW, my walk needs shovled too, please pay the snow removal company quickly, I need to get to the store to spend some more of your money on my "God Given Rights".)

[Gaucho]

Charity begins at home, yay!

[Gaucho]

If you are a human being born on this planet you have the right to food, shelter, clothing and some type of health care to keep on living if you get sick. Of course this isn't always the case becasue other humans try to control one another but all people should have these things. I also like how these people throw god around but don't think it's a right to have food. What kind of god would be like that? The judge like most people that think like him value property over people.

I've got a mortgage payment, food bills, and doctors bills that need paying... I expect that you'll be settling my accounts tomorrow?

I've worked my butt off for 34 years... I'm tired. I think I'll let everyone else pay my bills from now on.... thanks!

(BtW, my walk needs shovled too, please pay the snow removal company quickly, I need to get to the store to spend some more of your money on my "God Given Rights".)

Do you pay taxes?

[DelPen]

Can anyone give me one good reason any healthcare bill that does not start helping people for another 3 years needs to be rushed through before anyone can read the bill?

If the system is in such dire need of reform why not make it immediate? The federal government has shown that money deficits mean nothing to them so just start making everything "free" and raise taxes later to attempt to pay for it.

But no, we get to raise taxes now and all these people they claim are dieing while waiting for care will continue to die, if that argument is to be believed.

[Hockeynut!]

Here's a question.

If the health care bill passes, it won't go into effect for 3 years. So, could this be a big issue in the 2012 election? Could the R candidate run on a platform of "If you elect me, I will repeal Obama-care"?

[DelPen]

Here's a question.

If the health care bill passes, it won't go into effect for 3 years. So, could this be a big issue in the 2012 election? Could the R candidate run on a platform of "If you elect me, I will repeal Obama-care"?

This will be more of an issue next year with Congress. If the middle class happens to notice they have less money in their pockets but their health care prices are still rising then the Democrats could lose the House.

I think there will be more issues than just health care to use against Obama.

[Hockeynut!]

I wasn't as clear as I should have been. What I meant was could the R candidate run with the promise of repealing Obama-care and (if elected and with the support of congress) actually do so? It doesn't seem like it would be that hard to cancel a program which hasn't really started.

[shafnutz05]

I wasn't as clear as I should have been. What I meant was could the R candidate run with the promise of repealing Obama-care and (if elected and with the support of congress) actually do so? It doesn't seem like it would be that hard to cancel a program which hasn't really started.

Quite frankly, that is my only hope right now. The American people don't want this bill...every poll has shown that. And the arrogant Democrats argue that once their subjects get to experience the sheer wonder of this magic bill, the numbers will go up. Of course, Harry, Nancy, and the rest of their cabal refuse to let anyone outside their inner circle see all the garbage they have put in it over the past several weeks.

Once this bill is fully implemented, we will never be able to repeal it. Kinda funny that we have to start paying higher taxes starting next year for this piece of work...no wonder they can claim it is "deficit-neutral" (which I still don't believe anyway, not in a million years). I will be utterly shocked if Obama gets reelected...all the independents (and even Republicans) that voted for him because of their a) disgust with Bush, and b) his youthful vibrance, are ruing the day they made that vote now.

[cs6687]

If this bill goes through, the democrats are done, and so is Obama. Nothing like telling the people you work for, who are vehemently opposed to this bill, to go eff themselves. November 2, 2010. The day the Democratic party goes down.

[doublem]

If you are a human being born on this planet you have the right to food, shelter, clothing and some type of health care to keep on living if you get sick. Of course this isn't always the case becasue other humans try to control one another but all people should have these things. I also like how these people throw god around but don't think it's a right to have food. What kind of god would be like that? The judge like most people that think like him value property over people.

I like how you throw the word "rights" around without any apparent understand of it's meaning...

Coming from an advocate of theft, I find your righteous indignation amusing. I don't value property over people. I just don't believe in stealing - which is the only method by which you can declare health care, and by extension food, shelter, clothing, etc., to be a right. I agree that all people *should* have these things. I believe (actively) in assisting people when they do not have these things. But I don't believe they, nor I, have the right to put a gun to your head and demand that you do the same. I actually respect their life (by not initiating force against them), their liberty (by not restricting their movement), and their property (by not stealing it). None of this even begins to address, I might add, the less morally relevant question implicit in your declaration of rights; that being, by who's/what standard is food, shelter, clothing, and health care provided?

There is no meaning of "rights" becasue they only exist in the abstract. So explain to me how people are supposed to have food, shelter and clothing without "stealing"? I really don't care if it's theft or not. Seriously, couldn't care less, if it means taxing me more or you more so some else has a enough food on the table to feed their children, I'm fine with that. Coming from the moral police like yourself you should understand how living trumps theft. Where do these "rights" come from and who determines how many we have? And why do so many different countries have so many different rights? You can't on one side defend "rights' like a right travel, please that's crazy, but not think it's a right for a human to have food on his table, some type of shelter, and a job to continue this process. So explain to me what right you have to tell others they have no right to have food, shelter and clothing? Again, George Carlin on rights.

Boy everyone in this country is running around yammering about their rights. "I have a right, you have no right, we have a right."

Folks I hate to spoil your fun, but... there's no such thing as rights. They're imaginary. We made 'em up. Like the boogie man. Like Three Little Pigs, Pinocio, Mother Goose, like that. Rights are an idea. They're just imaginary. They're a cute idea. Cute. But that's all. Cute...and fictional. But if you think you do have rights, let me ask you this, "where do they come from?" People say, "They come from God. They're God given rights." Awww , here we go again...here we go again.

The God excuse, the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument, "It came from God." Anything we can't describe must have come from God. Personally folks, I believe that if your rights came from God, he would've given you the right for some food every day, and he would've given you the right to a roof over your head. GOD would've been looking out for ya. You know that.

He wouldn't have been worried making sure you have a gun so you can get drunk on Sunday night and kill your girlfriend's parents.

But let's say it's true. Let's say that God gave us these rights. Why would he give us a certain number of rights?

The Bill of Rights of this country has 10 stipulations. OK...10 rights. And apparently God was doing sloppy work that week, because we've had to ammend the bill of rights an additional 17 times. So God forgot a couple of things, like...SLAVERY. Just slipped his mind.

But let's say...let's say God gave us the original 10. He gave the british 13. The british Bill of Rights has 13 stipulations. The Germans have 29, the Belgians have 25, the Sweedish have only 6, and some people in the world have no rights at all. ?...NO RIGHTS AT ALL!? Why would God give different people in different countries a different numbers of different rights? Boredom? Amusement? Bad arithmetic? Do we find out at long last after all this time that God is weak in math skills? Doesn't sound like divine planning to me. Sounds more like human planning . Sounds more like one group trying to control another group. In other words...business as usual in America.

Now, if you think you do have rights, I have one last assignment for ya. Next time you're at the computer get on the Internet, go to Wikipedia. When you get to Wikipedia, in the search field for Wikipedia, i want to type in, "Japanese-Americans 1942" and you'll find out all about your precious rights. Alright. You know about it.

In 1942 there were 110,000 Japanese-American citizens, in good standing, law abiding people, who were thrown into internment camps simply because their parents were born in the wrong country. That's all they did wrong. They had no right to a lawyer, no right to a fair trial, no right to a jury of their peers, no right to due process of any kind. The only right they had was...right this way! Into the internment camps.

Just when these American citizens needed their rights the most...their government took them away. and rights aren't rights if someone can take em away. They're priveledges. That's all we've ever had in this country is a bill of TEMPORARY priviledges; and if you read the news, even badly, you know the list get's shorter, and shorter, and shorter.

Yeup, sooner or later the people in this country are going to realize the government doesn't give a about them. the government doesn't care about you, or your children, or your rights, or your welfare or your safety. it simply doesn't give a **** about you. It's interested in it's own power. That's the only thing...keeping it, and expanding wherever possible.

Personally when it comes to rights, I think one of two things is true: either we have unlimited rights, or we have no rights at all."

[doublem]

If you are a human being born on this planet you have the right to food, shelter, clothing and some type of health care to keep on living if you get sick. Of course this isn't always the case becasue other humans try to control one another but all people should have these things. I also like how these people throw god around but don't think it's a right to have food. What kind of god would be like that? The judge like most people that think like him value property over people.

I've got a mortgage payment, food bills, and doctors bills that need paying... I expect that you'll be settling my accounts tomorrow?

I've worked my butt off for 34 years... I'm tired. I think I'll let everyone else pay my bills from now on.... thanks!

(BtW, my walk needs shovled too, please pay the snow removal company quickly, I need to get to the store to spend some more of your money on my "God Given Rights".)

I'm sure someone will do that for you. Do you have children?

[cs6687]

Senate Democrats braved the aftermath of a blizzard Sunday to continue their push to pass a sweeping health care bill before Christmas.

The Senate began an all-day session, to be followed by a crucial vote scheduled for after midnight, on changes crafted by Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada to gain support for the bill from all 60 members of the Democratic caucus.

If that doesn't make you skeptical or curious about everything, I don't know what will.

[bh]

There is no meaning of "rights" because they only exist in the abstract.

Personally when it comes to rights, I think one of two things is true: either we have unlimited rights, or we have no rights at all."

I think he's right here. And it think the rights you have depend on how much power and influence you have. If you a powerful person you have basically unlimited rights and if you're joe shmoe you have none, well only the ones the people in power give you.

[doublem]

There is no meaning of "rights" because they only exist in the abstract.

Personally when it comes to rights, I think one of two things is true: either we have unlimited rights, or we have no rights at all."

I think he's right here. And it think the rights you have depend on how much power and influence you have. If you a powerful person you have basically unlimited rights and if you're joe shmoe you have none, well only the ones the people in power give you.

Exactly. And in this country the powerful can do anything and not get punished.

[ExPatriatePen]

If you are a human being born on this planet you have the right to food, shelter, clothing and some type of health care to keep on living if you get sick. Of course this isn't always the case becasue other humans try to control one another but all people should have these things. I also like how these people throw god around but don't think it's a right to have food. What kind of god would be like that? The judge like most people that think like him value property over people.

I've got a mortgage payment, food bills, and doctors bills that need paying... I expect that you'll be settling my accounts tomorrow?

I've worked my butt off for 34 years... I'm tired. I think I'll let everyone else pay my bills from now on.... thanks!

(BtW, my walk needs shovled too, please pay the snow removal company quickly, I need to get to the store to spend some more of your money on my "God Given Rights".)

Do you pay taxes?

Of course... what's that got to do with anything? I have no problem with taxes going to support defense (and I mean Defense, not crazy senseless wars). Taxes for security (police), etc.

I do have a problem with politicians using the threat of incarceration or force to take my hard earned assets and redistribute them to someone else because that person meets the conditions that a bunch of elitist politicians have codified into the statutes.

I'm perfectly capable of donating to worthy causes myself thank you.

[Guinness]

There is no meaning of "rights" becasue they only exist in the abstract.

I disagree - they are inherent. They may not be respected or recognized, and they may be misunderstood and corrupted, but they exist.

So explain to me how people are supposed to have food, shelter and clothing without "stealing"? I really don't care if it's theft or not. Seriously, couldn't care less, if it means taxing me more or you more so some else has a enough food on the table to feed their children, I'm fine with that.

But where do you divine the right to do this? How do you determine, through consistent and logical reasoning, that you have the right to force other people to do something, without inferring that others have the same right? Don't you see the disastrous consequences of this "reasoning"?

I've said that I'm an active believer in helping those in need. Why don't I have the right to determine how much I give to others?

living trumps theft.

It's not the needy stealing in this case. It's you.

Where do these "rights" come from and who determines how many we have? And why do so many different countries have so many different rights? You can't on one side defend "rights' like a right travel, please that's crazy, but not think it's a right for a human to have food on his table, some type of shelter, and a job to continue this process.

A belief in God is not a prerequisite to understanding rights. You'll notice, there was no mention of God in the Philosophy of Liberty video I posted. Rights can be understood through non-contradictory logic.

So explain to me what right you have to tell others they have no right to have food, shelter and clothing?

I don't claim that right - it's understood. I have no right to interfere, through force or fraud, with their acquiring these things. As I've said, I believe in helping others in need. What gives you the right to initiate force against me? Why don't I have that same right against you?

Sometimes I wish we could discuss these things in person, over a beer. Sometimes it's difficult, I think for both of us, to understand exactly what the other is trying to say - at least the full context of it. Then sometimes I think it's best not, because I may strangle you...

Also, this is the second time I've typed this, because my session timed out. I hate that. The first one was much better.

[Guinness]

I have no problem with taxes going to support defense (and I mean Defense, not crazy senseless wars). Taxes for security (police), etc.

I do. Theft is an immoral act, regardless of the rationale.

The federal government survived just fine for over 100 years without the income tax.

[Guinness]

I've got a mortgage payment, food bills, and doctors bills that need paying... I expect that you'll be settling my accounts tomorrow?

I've worked my butt off for 34 years... I'm tired. I think I'll let everyone else pay my bills from now on.... thanks!

(BtW, my walk needs shovled too, please pay the snow removal company quickly, I need to get to the store to spend some more of your money on my "God Given Rights".)

I'm sure someone will do that for you. Do you have children?

But don't you see that he has as much a right to make that claim as the right you claim on his property? The limit to the confiscation you propose can only be completely arbitrary. Who is this wise leader who will determine that limit? Is it you?

(This was part of my original response that I lost when my session timed out. )

[shafnutz05]

It truly, truly scares me that there are so many people in this country that believe the have's should be mercilessly taxed to supply for the have-nots. And this is coming from someone who was raised by a single mother that worked two jobs to supply for my sister and I.

Did you know that Republicans give a far larger portion of their income to charity (percentage-wise) than Democrats? Unfortunately, the Dems in Congress only support "charity" (read: theft) if the government is controlling who receives it. This explains why the president severely limited the tax writeoffs of charitable donations. What has happened as a result? Charitable donations have plummeted. Government has more power, people have less power...the trend continues.

Unfortunately, things like the "income gap" and "poverty" will always exist. The income gap is a necessary evil in a successful free market system, and poverty will exist in any type of system. You can only take so much wealth/property/etc from the successful people in this country before they say the hell with it and pack their bags. Look at California....successful business owners have fled the state in droves because of the downright intolerable taxes out there. This, combined with out of control spending, has sent the state into bankruptcy. Now, this is well in the process of happening on the national level. And for our president to tell us that the federal government will go bankrupt if we DON'T pass Obamacare? What a sick, sick joke that is.

[doublem]

I disagree - they are inherent. They may not be respected or recognized, and they may be misunderstood and corrupted, but they exist.

How? How is it inherent to tax someone or theft as you say? Explain to me where the inherent part comes in or where it is inherent you own a gun? The point I was making is how can someone claim it's a right to travel but not have a right to have food or shelter. How do you determine how many we have or who has them besides the big ones, murder, theft, slavery etc.

But where do you divine the right to do this? How do you determine, through consistent and logical reasoning, that you have the right to force other people to do something, without inferring that others have the same right? Don't you see the disastrous consequences of this "reasoning"?

I don't becasue I don't think it's a right. I see nothing inherent about that. When you explain when the inherent part of paying a higher tax comes in then we can talk.

It's not the needy stealing in this case. It's you.

Let's say for whatever reason someone can't get food, shelter, clothing which happens in the world and no one offers to help. Should this person die becasue of this? or should "force" be applied? What happens to this person if no one steps up?

A belief in God is not a prerequisite to understanding rights. You'll notice, there was no mention of God in the Philosophy of Liberty video I posted. Rights can be understood through non-contradictory logic.

But who determines what is a right then, besides slavery, murder etc, and how many we have and when we can have them or not? I mean how for a long time in this country and many others some people has no rights and some people had unlimited rights, I agree in the abstract we all should have the same rights but these are ideas we are talking about.

I don't claim that right - it's understood. I have no right to interfere, through force or fraud, with their acquiring these things. As I've said, I believe in helping others in need.

By who? You and your ideas just like I have my ideas and other have different ideas.

[doublem]

I've got a mortgage payment, food bills, and doctors bills that need paying... I expect that you'll be settling my accounts tomorrow?

I've worked my butt off for 34 years... I'm tired. I think I'll let everyone else pay my bills from now on.... thanks!

(BtW, my walk needs shovled too, please pay the snow removal company quickly, I need to get to the store to spend some more of your money on my "God Given Rights".)

I'm sure someone will do that for you. Do you have children?

But don't you see that he has as much a right to make that claim as the right you claim on his property? The limit to the confiscation you propose can only be completely arbitrary. Who is this wise leader who will determine that limit? Is it you?

(This was part of my original response that I lost when my session timed out. )

Yes, and all people have that right. All people have the right to eat, shelter, clothing so if it means someone has to be taxed to do that okay.

[shafnutz05]

doublem, I understand your belief that everyone that is suffering in the world should be provided food, shelter, clothing etc. While it is certainly a wonderful concept, it is impossible to implement without instituting a form of Marxist-fascism on a worldwide scale.

For starters, I am assuming you believe every person's "basic needs" should be supplied for. But where do we stop? Should a car be considered a basic need? What about each person's own apartment/house? Who defines what "basic needs" are?

Dependency on government redistribution of wealth for one's living is a dangerous, dangerous trap. Once you become entrapped in that system, it is extremely difficult to get out. Oh, and do you think that the Dems in Congress want these people to work their way out of the system? NOT A CHANCE. Each one of these people represents another person that is (voluntarily or not) forced to rely on Uncle Sam for all of their basic needs. As such, they can be bent and formed to vote/think whichever way the party in power wants them to. I am tired of hearing about how generous the Dems in Congress are. They love passing "social justice" bills because they recognize that the more people they can coerce into relying on government handouts, the more people will vote to keep the hand that feeds them in power. It is essentially buying votes through subsidies.

[shafnutz05]

All people have the right to eat, shelter, clothing so if it means someone has to be taxed to do that okay.

This is so overly simplistic it isn't even funny. But where does this stop? Do I think that people of wealth should be charitable and contribute to organizations that provide for the above basic needs? Absolutely. I am just tired of all the successful people in this country being viewed as cash cows that we can confiscate wealth from to fund all this crap. Doublem, I think you have a way too idealized view of federal government. While you believe that the people pushing all these social programs are being altrustic, I recognize the fact that every move they make is to preserve power for themselves and other likeminded people. Total dependency on government aid is one of the worst forms of totalitarianism, although people don't look at it that way.