LGP Political Discussion Thread

[shane613]

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/ ... 933699.ece
What a shame. More great art expression being supressed.

but if ppl booed and walked out, is it being suppressed or ppl just don't want to see it? if they don't want to see it and get negative press because of the audience's reaction, wouldn't it be the intelligent thing to drop it for something that will get an audience and make money?

[ExPatriatePen]

Isn't the problem here that conservatives seem to never admit that conservatism is a failure? It's always that person wasn't a conservative or conservative enough.( George Bush). This is a narrative that never seems to be questioned. Yet when left wing policies fail, "Liberals never no what they are doing OMG, OMG." All social programs have to go, no more regulation, etc, etc.

You gotta love these arguments from the left, first they point out how GWB was a massive spender who started us down the path of this deficit mess, then they take us (the conservatives) to task for saying the GWB wasn't fiscally conservative enough.

How are conservatives hypocritical by doing this? It seems pretty evident to me that these positions are in alignment.

Oh, and BtW Homer, personally I admit I voted for GWB, I also admit it was a failed administration. I have no issues with admitting it was a mistake.

As an aside, I had Thanksgiving dinner with friends of mine in Palm Springs, we talked politics for much of the evening. It was a very enjoyable discussion, especially considering they're a Gay couple. (62 and 49 year old males). Just because one is Fiscally conservative doesn't mean that they can't be socially liberal. We just don't have a party to represent us at the moment.

[Guinness]

As an aside, I had Thanksgiving dinner with friends of mine in Palm Springs, we talked politics for much of the evening. It was a very enjoyable discussion, especially considering they're a Gay couple.

You can't have gay friends... you're a conservative!

(62 and 49 year old males). Just because one is Fiscally conservative

Oh... nevermind. I see that your friend really isn't gay. Gays aren't fiscal conservatives.

Shew. All is back to normal in the world.

We just don't have a party to represent us at the moment.

True. But you sound like burgeoning libertarians.

[Guinness]

Isn't the problem here that conservatives seem to never admit that conservatism is a failure? It's always that person wasn't a conservative or conservative enough.( George Bush). This is a narrative that never seems to be questioned. Yet when left wing policies fail, "Liberals never no what they are doing OMG, OMG." All social programs have to go, no more regulation, etc, etc.

By their deeds you shall know them.

George Bush was a Republican - and therefore, according to the American political flow chart, the "conservative".

I could call myself an armchair, but if I don't sit in the corner and allow people to sit on me I'm really not much of an armchair, am I?

In American politics we have two choices: the pro-welfare/tacitly pro-warfare party (et al) and the pro-warfare/tacitly pro-welfare party (et al).

Let me add that the two parties DO have one thing overtly in common: they're both pro-state... to the liberty-minded observer.

[HomerPenguin]

Well goodness knows I hate to tire you. But as much as I hate crossing our Exalted Political Guru, the messenger does matter to some of us.

Jealousy, Homer? Oh my...

Jealousy? Well, I guess I can cop to a certain envy of the guts possessed by anybody who can give the same morality lecture on the superiority of frontier living ad nauseum and still think he's entitled to determine that somebody else's posts are "tiresome," but that's about it.

[HomerPenguin]

Yes, plus I agreed with it even when the Republican was in office so, you know, I've been on that message for a while now. Now that you mention it, how exactly did that become "your" message?

Sorry, the page must have cut off the "Homer Penguin" citation I added as a footnote. You are truly a prophet and you have had a remarkable influence on my letsgopens.com "LGP Political Discussion Thread" posts. I hope my signature now meets your approval.


Any content of the above post Homer Penguin agrees with, is with full credit to Homer Penguin. Approval pending.

Any of this response might make sense if I'd claimed the position as my own. Thing is, lots of people have been against messy foreign entanglements for a long time now. The fact that you came around on Afghanistan after the Democrat got elected doesn't really make it "your" message.

[Guinness]

Well goodness knows I hate to tire you. But as much as I hate crossing our Exalted Political Guru, the messenger does matter to some of us.

Jealousy, Homer? Oh my...

Jealousy? Well, I guess I can cop to a certain envy of the guts possessed by anybody who can give the same morality lecture on the superiority of frontier living ad nauseum and still think he's entitled to determine that somebody else's posts are "tiresome," but that's about it.

For anyone - let alone you - to suggest that someone might have the market cornered on "ad nauseum"...

Clearly you're a little scorned by the praise some have received around NHR lately... Let me offer you some comfort, Homer: these threads would be NOTHING without you. :winkies:

[GaryRissling]

Yes, plus I agreed with it even when the Republican was in office so, you know, I've been on that message for a while now. Now that you mention it, how exactly did that become "your" message?

Sorry, the page must have cut off the "Homer Penguin" citation I added as a footnote. You are truly a prophet and you have had a remarkable influence on my letsgopens.com "LGP Political Discussion Thread" posts. I hope my signature now meets your approval.


Any content of the above post Homer Penguin agrees with, is with full credit to Homer Penguin. Approval pending.

Any of this response might make sense if I'd claimed the position as my own. Thing is, lots of people have been against messy foreign entanglements for a long time now. The fact that you came around on Afghanistan after the Democrat got elected doesn't really make it "your" message.

by "message", I meant "post"; specifically the post regarding afghanistan.

[doublem]

Isn't the problem here that conservatives seem to never admit that conservatism is a failure? It's always that person wasn't a conservative or conservative enough.( George Bush). This is a narrative that never seems to be questioned. Yet when left wing policies fail, "Liberals never no what they are doing OMG, OMG." All social programs have to go, no more regulation, etc, etc.

By their deeds you shall know them.

George Bush was a Republican - and therefore, according to the American political flow chart, the "conservative".

I could call myself an armchair, but if I don't sit in the corner and allow people to sit on me I'm really not much of an armchair, am I?

In American politics we have two choices: the pro-welfare/tacitly pro-warfare party (et al) and the pro-warfare/tacitly pro-welfare party (et al).

Let me add that the two parties DO have one thing overtly in common: they're both pro-state... to the liberty-minded observer.

What does that have to do with conservatives never being able to admit that maybe it isn't just the guy that isn't conservative enough but maybe the ideas themselves are a little flawed? I don't know how you can that into a Libertarian argument.

[doublem]

You gotta love these arguments from the left, first they point out how GWB was a massive spender who started us down the path of this deficit mess, then they take us (the conservatives) to task for saying the GWB wasn't fiscally conservative enough.

No, what I'm pointing out is who is this mythical person that is going to take conservatism back to its "roots" becasue it doesn't seem like to many make the grade. Not even RR by current numbers.

[Guinness]

You gotta love these arguments from the left, first they point out how GWB was a massive spender who started us down the path of this deficit mess, then they take us (the conservatives) to task for saying the GWB wasn't fiscally conservative enough.

No, what I'm pointing out is who is this mythical person that is going to take conservatism back to its "roots" becasue it doesn't seem like to many make the grade. Not even RR by current numbers.

I'm quietly coming to the understanding that you're right - a return to limited government as a libertarian (some call themselves paleo-conservatives) would see it is not possible under the current condition of the government and political system. I'm beginning to believe that the only way limited government is now possible, if at all, is via revolution or secession.

[Guinness]

What does that have to do with conservatives never being able to admit that maybe it isn't just the guy that isn't conservative enough but maybe the ideas themselves are a little flawed? I don't know how you can that into a Libertarian argument.

I'm not going to argue that modern conservatism isn't flawed, but the implication that modern liberalism offers a rational, coherent and economically viable system of government is just as indefensible.

They're both pro-state ideologies in one way or another.

[tluke53]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/OPINION/11/27/n ... index.html

This type of thinking is why the mainstream media sucks. The idea that it's the U.S. workers fault for the current state of the country is absurd.

Competition. A simple concept and a beneficial one. It makes us better by forcing us to work harder. Sadly, it's also an idea that is going out of style in a society where students expect to get good grades just for showing up, where everyone gets a ribbon no matter where they finish, and where parents scheme to get their kids into college by lobbying state legislatures to create set-asides for in-state residents at public universities.

Geez, Ruben where was your competition mantra say last year? Or five years ago or 20 years ago? I guess big business doesn't have to compete???

When we're not hiding from domestic competition, we're trying to shield ourselves from the foreign variety. High-skilled workers don't want to compete with those from China, India or Pakistan. Low-skilled workers are just as afraid of those from Mexico, Guatemala or El Salvador.

Who wouldn't want to compete with countries that pay their workers under living wages? Explain to me how workers frame U.S. policies that let these conditions exist?

In last year's Democratic presidential primary, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton tried to give displaced workers in Ohio, Michigan and Pennsylvania a convenient villain to blame -- the North American Free Trade Agreement.

Another oversimplification. Could you maybe explain the benefits of the NAFTA, please, becasue a lot of people object to it. Like people with advanced degrees. Not just some idiotic statement that protectionism leads to laziness. Dear Lord.

Why should U.S. citizens get a benefit not from education or hard work but from something they had nothing to do with -- where they were born?

Okay, we agree.

If a job is available, U.S. workers should be free to compete for it, but not have it handed to them on a silver platter.

Clearly, when unemployment is at 10% that is what is happening.

Of course, protectionists claim that the playing field isn't level since foreign workers will often accept less money to do the same job, thus putting American workers at a disadvantage.

Really, becasue that isn't what most say.

Tough. President John Kennedy had it right. At a press conference in March 1962, while fielding a question about military reservists who were upset at being mobilized and deployed to Europe and Southeast Asia, Kennedy made the point that there is no level playing field -- not ever."There is always inequity in life," he said. "Some men are killed in a war, and some men are wounded, and some men never leave the country, and some men are stationed in the Antarctic, and some are stationed in San Francisco. It's very hard in military or in personal life to assure complete equality. Life is unfair."

Oh, while that's great reasoning. Life is unfair so we do nothing and continue to make it unfair. Yet, it was JFK that started New Frontier programs. You would have thought he would have tossed his hands in the air and said "oh boy life sucks". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Frontier#Medical" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That way, they don't have to go into the private sector and compete for jobs with the rest of us. You see, our aversion to competition starts at the top.

Right about that one. Our corporate owners never compete.

Here are some facts. Americans work longer hours then most countries in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_ti ... ent_trends" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Hard work" is a subjective statement. I would assume longer working hours means harder work but who knows. This article gives good insight into how the mainstream media thinks. The refusal to ever question the people that were directly responsible for the current economic and political problems with the country.( Corporate America and government) . Instead this writer and more like him make some idiotic comparison to competition and the working's class, yet, the lack of competition and hard work is what directly led to the current problems by the elites that own this country. The corporate medias refusal to ever question authority is disgusting and a down right failure. These people get paid tons of money to "inform" us but we get articles blaming workers of the U.S. problems.

This guy makes many good points and I couldn't disagree with you more. Many people that I encounter in daily life have no idea how to work hard and their lot in life is largely their own doing. ANYONE can make it in this world and you don't need to be a genius. I am proof of that.

I am a guy who has worked his way up from extreme poverty. My parents are high school dropouts who spend most of their time wondering aimlessly from job to job. One is now on social security largely due to laziness. The other spends most of her time in AA meetings. Seeing this self destructive life style and its impact on my childhood has driven me to get an education and apply myself at work.

In 10 years, I went from a 20 year old backup tape jockey to an IT Manager for a large fortune 500 company. During this time, I put myself through school and started a family. I am very much not a genius, as most of my writing clearly illustrates. My accomplishments are based off of hard work. I always make sure that I am working harder than the other guy. I love people that sit around waiting for something to fall in their laps. They can eat my dust as I pass them by on the corporate ladder. If that sounds cruel then so be it. I know what it is like to be dirt poor and I am going to do everything in my power to prevent that from happening to me and my family.

I love it when I hear others complain about the lack of opportunities they have for advancement. These are the same people that don't volunteer for extra assignments. These are the same people that leave the office at the same time each day. These are the same people that often complain about what their neighbor has but they don't have. These are the same people that spend their lives "waiting for the world to change" which I believe is a John Maier song. You people keep on waiting, it makes it that much easier for me.

My point and the point the author of this article is trying to make is that competition is a fact of life. Success and failure is largely in your own hands and external factors have very little to do with it. Its remarkable how many people I work with that are so unwilling to work hard. They put forth no extra effort and wait for others to take the lead. I think the author of this article is trying to make a point that this attitude has a lot to do with the real and perceived decline in the US's global economic standing. We can't continue to wait for someone to bail us out. We as individuals must move forward based on our own imitative.

[doublem]

Many people that I encounter in daily life have no idea how to work hard and their lot in life is largely their own doing. ANYONE can make it in this world and you don't need to be a genius. I am proof of that.

Okay, I agree on some level, but the writer fails to mention how the lack of hard work and competition was a direct result of the biggest economic meltdown in decade. Why would someone that values hard hard and competition to mention such a blunder?

My point and the point the author of this article is trying to make is that competition is a fact of life. Success and failure is largely in your own hands and external factors have very little to do with it.

No those of Wall Street and in government that help make these policies. They are above it. We can disagree about "external;" factors but why does the writer refuse to question the authority and lame it on "lazy" Americans?

We can't continue to wait for someone to bail us out.

Rightttttttttt and that is the workers fault? Geee it would be nice to blame the people responsible and not quote bummer stickers.

[Geezer]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 52682.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Good read.

[Sarcastic]

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-po ... Bin.Laden/

WASHINGTON — Osama bin Laden was unquestionably within reach of U.S. troops in the mountains of Tora Bora when American military leaders made the crucial and costly decision not to pursue the terrorist leader with massive force, a Senate report says.

The report states categorically that bin Laden was hiding in Tora Bora when the U.S. had the means to mount a rapid assault with several thousand troops at least. It says that a review of existing literature, unclassified government records and interviews with central participants "removes any lingering doubts and makes it clear that Osama bin Laden was within our grasp at Tora Bora."

[shafnutz05]

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-po ... Bin.Laden/

WASHINGTON — Osama bin Laden was unquestionably within reach of U.S. troops in the mountains of Tora Bora when American military leaders made the crucial and costly decision not to pursue the terrorist leader with massive force, a Senate report says.

The report states categorically that bin Laden was hiding in Tora Bora when the U.S. had the means to mount a rapid assault with several thousand troops at least. It says that a review of existing literature, unclassified government records and interviews with central participants "removes any lingering doubts and makes it clear that Osama bin Laden was within our grasp at Tora Bora."

I read about this today. It's a partisan panel, so I will withhold judgment. Bill Clinton had a golden opportunity to take out Osama Bin Laden via an airstrike, had concrete intelligence that Bin Laden was in fact at the very location they were about to strike, and he shied away.

[Sarcastic]

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-ge ... .Congress/

NEW YORK — The chairman of the Federal Reserve is concerned that congressional efforts at financial reform could weaken the central bank's ability to handle future crises and may politicize monetary policy.

Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke made the comments in an Op-Ed piece to appear in Sunday's Washington Post, five days before the Senate Banking committee holds a hearing on his nomination for a second term. His current four-year term expires Jan. 31.

Bernanke wrote the nation is challenged to design a financial oversight system that will "embody the lessons of the past two years and provide a robust framework for preventing future crises and the economic damage they cause."

But two proposals being considered "are very much out of step with the global consensus on the appropriate role of central banks, and they would seriously impair the prospects for economic and financial stability in the United States," he said.

[Sarcastic]

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-po ... Bin.Laden/

WASHINGTON — Osama bin Laden was unquestionably within reach of U.S. troops in the mountains of Tora Bora when American military leaders made the crucial and costly decision not to pursue the terrorist leader with massive force, a Senate report says.

The report states categorically that bin Laden was hiding in Tora Bora when the U.S. had the means to mount a rapid assault with several thousand troops at least. It says that a review of existing literature, unclassified government records and interviews with central participants "removes any lingering doubts and makes it clear that Osama bin Laden was within our grasp at Tora Bora."

I read about this today. It's a partisan panel, so I will withhold judgment. Bill Clinton had a golden opportunity to take out Osama Bin Laden via an airstrike, had concrete intelligence that Bin Laden was in fact at the very location they were about to strike, and he shied away.

OK, but this has nothing to do with Clinton. Plus, we weren't fighting Iraq then. This is all on the Bush administration. But as I always say, they didn't go after Bin Laden, because they didn't want to go after Bin Laden. If we captured or killed him, Iraq war would have never happened. Don't forget Cheney was making maps of Iraqi oil fields years before we invaded. The real architects of the Iraq war - Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, etc. - planned this war years before it happened, as well. They all wanted to go to Iraq, for different reasons, any way they could. The whole WMD was a lie and a joke that left us bankrupt and looking stupid. But the war was intentional and so was the refusal of going after Bin Laden.

[Sarcastic]

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-he ... od.Stamps/

CHICAGO — The estimate was startling, and made headlines around the country: Almost half of all U.S. kids will be on food stamps at some time during childhood.

The eye-opening estimate on children is from an analysis published earlier this month in the Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine. The authors, sociologists from Cornell University and Washington University in St. Louis, based their projection on 30 years of national data. They said their results show U.S. kids face a substantial risk for experiencing poverty, which poses a serious threat to their health and well-being.

A USDA hunger report last week raised similar concerns, finding that more than one in seven American households lacked "food security" in 2008 — the highest number since tracking began in 1995. That suggests almost 15 percent of households nationwide struggled to get enough to eat, versus about 11 percent in 2007.

The great United States of America, richest country on earth, land of the free and all that BS....

[Geezer]

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-po ... Bin.Laden/

WASHINGTON — Osama bin Laden was unquestionably within reach of U.S. troops in the mountains of Tora Bora when American military leaders made the crucial and costly decision not to pursue the terrorist leader with massive force, a Senate report says.

The report states categorically that bin Laden was hiding in Tora Bora when the U.S. had the means to mount a rapid assault with several thousand troops at least. It says that a review of existing literature, unclassified government records and interviews with central participants "removes any lingering doubts and makes it clear that Osama bin Laden was within our grasp at Tora Bora."

I read about this today. It's a partisan panel, so I will withhold judgment. Bill Clinton had a golden opportunity to take out Osama Bin Laden via an airstrike, had concrete intelligence that Bin Laden was in fact at the very location they were about to strike, and he shied away.

OK, but this has nothing to do with Clinton. Plus, we weren't fighting Iraq then. This is all on the Bush administration. But as I always say, they didn't go after Bin Laden, because they didn't want to go after Bin Laden. If we captured or killed him, Iraq war would have never happened. Don't forget Cheney was making maps of Iraqi oil fields years before we invaded. The real architects of the Iraq war - Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, etc. - planned this war years before it happened, as well. They all wanted to go to Iraq, for different reasons, any way they could. The whole WMD was a lie and a joke that left us bankrupt and looking stupid. But the war was intentional and so was the refusal of going after Bin Laden.

The Sudan offered to turn over Bin Laden to the US when Clinton was in office. Not only would the Iraq war been unlikely but 911 might not have happened. I was ticked at the time when Tommy Franks let the Taliban walk away into Pakistan. Why did it take all these years for these hack senators to develop such an amazing grasp of the perfectly obvious? Just another example of what useless POS that pols are.

[Corvidae]

The Sudan? What are you, a 19th century British officer?

[Sarcastic]

The Sudan offered to turn over Bin Laden to the US when Clinton was in office. Not only would the Iraq war been unlikely but 911 might not have happened. I was ticked at the time when Tommy Franks let the Taliban walk away into Pakistan. Why did it take all these years for these hack senators to develop such an amazing grasp of the perfectly obvious? Just another example of what useless POS that pols are.

I heard about that before, but never made up my mind on what really happened. I tried looking it up just now, but got conflicting results. In 1996, Bin Laden hasn't attacked us yet, so there'd be no case to be made. But if he was named as having a role in the 1993 bombing (newsmax), then maybe that is not so. However, I don't remember who the prosecutors were or if they had any sort of political agenda.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_didn't_cl ... to_america
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/d ... nce_1.html
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/ ... 1819.shtml
http://www.politicalforum.com/current-e ... nce-9.html

[Sarcastic]

By the way, an article in a Polish newspaper today stated that there are 36 million people on food stamps in the US right now and that the number is growing by 20,000 a day.

[doublem]

The great United States of America, richest country on earth, land of the free and all that BS....

I have posted links about the growing inequality in this country before. Why doesn't anyone talk about this, media, politicians, anyone??? How long can you continue to claim your the "greatest nation in the world" when the number of children born into poverty goes up yearly?? No one seems to notice, no one seems to care. It's just pushed under the rug.

From a George Carlin act:

Now, there's one thing you might have noticed I don't complain about: politicians," he explained in a routine that challenged all the premises of today's half-a-loaf reformers. "Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they suck. Well, where do people think these politicians come from? They don't fall out of the sky. They don't pass through a membrane from another reality. They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens. This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer. It's what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain't going to do any good; you're just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans. So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it's not the politicians who suck. Maybe something else sucks around here… like, the public. Yeah, the public sucks. There's a nice campaign slogan for somebody: 'The Public Sucks.

George Carlin