LGP Political Discussion Thread

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HomerPenguin
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by HomerPenguin »

GaryRissling wrote:As I said in another thread, the lack of critical thinking in this country is a serious problem.
"Critical thinking" here apparently being a metaphor for "making something up and pretending it's a fact."
EDIT: Wait a minute - didn't you just go on about how you're sick of people getting their opinions for Drudge, then regurgitating them on here? ...but if someone you think is a Republican differs from what the right-ish sites are saying, they're a hypocrite? How does this work exactly?
Mm, no, I think I was pretty clear about who I consider to be a hypocrite, and in fact it includes those right-wing nutjob sites. Or are we now pretending that the right-wing "ZOMG TEH DEFICITS!!!!" crowd doesn't include a whole mess of folks who didn't give a second thought to deficits when their guy was the one racking them up?
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by HomerPenguin »

Guinness wrote:We rightfully disparaged the **** Bush for the lack of nuance and evolution in his policies and apparently in his thought-process...
Who is this "we"? Are you using the royal "we" these days?
a decade ago I was an empty-headed lib'rul who thought it was moral to confiscate labor for the "greater good". Luckily, my views have changed... or maybe now I just lack cred. :?
No, of course you're right as always; every single current deficit-hawk was always vocally and actively opposed to Bush. The reason nobody ever heard from them in such numbers until this past January was because, uh, Bush had them all locked away in a dormant volcano, or something.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by HomerPenguin »

bh wrote:Well, hopefully it is a lot more of the former and much less of the latter. I understand your frustration though. I personally know a bunch of people that fit your description.
The thing is, there's almost never any acknowledgment that they voted for the guy and now their views have changed or they regret their vote or whatever. They just never admit that they voted for him, and now they're suddenly "sick of both parties" even though they only bother complaining about one of them, of course because that one is the one in power--but, gosh, trust 'em, if those Republicans come back into power, by golly they'll be just as critical of them, also. The right only seems to remember to be critical of both parties when the Republicans are out of power, oddly enough.

Kerry should demand a recount, because near as I can tell Bush didn't get a single vote to re-elect in 04. These folks just want to sort of pretend the last 8 years never happened and go back to claiming some sort of moral high ground when in a just world the stink off of that administration should have been enough to drive them underground for a decade or so.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

HomerPenguin wrote:
Guinness wrote:We rightfully disparaged the **** Bush for the lack of nuance and evolution in his policies and apparently in his thought-process...
Who is this "we"? Are you using the royal "we" these days?
Hm. You and I? As in, "those of us who did"? Thought that was kind of clear. Little cranky, Homer? Didn't get what you wanted for Thanksgiving, maybe?
a decade ago I was an empty-headed lib'rul who thought it was moral to confiscate labor for the "greater good". Luckily, my views have changed... or maybe now I just lack cred. :?
No, of course you're right as always; every single current deficit-hawk was always vocally and actively opposed to Bush. The reason nobody ever heard from them in such numbers until this past January was because, uh, Bush had them all locked away in a dormant volcano, or something.
You didn't start this little snit over "every" deficit-hawk. You started it over GaryRissling... which would have been less of a "snit" and more of a "valid point" if he were on here bawling about deficits while at the same time advocating these wars in the here-and-now, and not some guess you might have as to his views 5 years ago.

And regardless of Gary's views, it's just as tiresome to see someone attempt to de-legitimize a person (not an argument) as is hypocrisy.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by HomerPenguin »

Guinness wrote:You didn't start this little snit over "every" deficit-hawk. You started it over GaryRissling... which would have been less of a "snit" and more of a "valid point" if he were on here bawling about deficits while at the same time advocating these wars in the here-and-now, and not some guess you might have as to his views 5 years ago.
Of course, I didn't make a guess, I asked a question. I was pretty sure what the answer would be before I asked it, but it was still a question.
And regardless of Gary's views, it's just as tiresome to see someone attempt to de-legitimize a person (not an argument) as is hypocrisy.
Well goodness knows I hate to tire you. But as much as I hate crossing our Exalted Political Guru, the messenger does matter to some of us.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by doublem »

http://www.cnn.com/2009/OPINION/11/27/n ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This type of thinking is why the mainstream media sucks. The idea that it's the U.S. workers fault for the current state of the country is absurd.
Competition. A simple concept and a beneficial one. It makes us better by forcing us to work harder. Sadly, it's also an idea that is going out of style in a society where students expect to get good grades just for showing up, where everyone gets a ribbon no matter where they finish, and where parents scheme to get their kids into college by lobbying state legislatures to create set-asides for in-state residents at public universities.


Geez, Ruben where was your competition mantra say last year? Or five years ago or 20 years ago? I guess big business doesn't have to compete???
When we're not hiding from domestic competition, we're trying to shield ourselves from the foreign variety. High-skilled workers don't want to compete with those from China, India or Pakistan. Low-skilled workers are just as afraid of those from Mexico, Guatemala or El Salvador.


Who wouldn't want to compete with countries that pay their workers under living wages? :face: Explain to me how workers frame U.S. policies that let these conditions exist?
In last year's Democratic presidential primary, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton tried to give displaced workers in Ohio, Michigan and Pennsylvania a convenient villain to blame -- the North American Free Trade Agreement.
Another oversimplification. Could you maybe explain the benefits of the NAFTA, please, becasue a lot of people object to it. Like people with advanced degrees. Not just some idiotic statement that protectionism leads to laziness. Dear Lord.
Why should U.S. citizens get a benefit not from education or hard work but from something they had nothing to do with -- where they were born?


Okay, we agree.
If a job is available, U.S. workers should be free to compete for it, but not have it handed to them on a silver platter.
Clearly, when unemployment is at 10% that is what is happening.
Of course, protectionists claim that the playing field isn't level since foreign workers will often accept less money to do the same job, thus putting American workers at a disadvantage.
Really, becasue that isn't what most say.
Tough. President John Kennedy had it right. At a press conference in March 1962, while fielding a question about military reservists who were upset at being mobilized and deployed to Europe and Southeast Asia, Kennedy made the point that there is no level playing field -- not ever."There is always inequity in life," he said. "Some men are killed in a war, and some men are wounded, and some men never leave the country, and some men are stationed in the Antarctic, and some are stationed in San Francisco. It's very hard in military or in personal life to assure complete equality. Life is unfair."
Oh, while that's great reasoning. Life is unfair so we do nothing and continue to make it unfair. Yet, it was JFK that started New Frontier programs. You would have thought he would have tossed his hands in the air and said "oh boy life sucks". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Frontier#Medical" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That way, they don't have to go into the private sector and compete for jobs with the rest of us. You see, our aversion to competition starts at the top.
Right about that one. Our corporate owners never compete.

Here are some facts. Americans work longer hours then most countries in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_ti ... ent_trends" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Hard work" is a subjective statement. I would assume longer working hours means harder work but who knows. This article gives good insight into how the mainstream media thinks. The refusal to ever question the people that were directly responsible for the current economic and political problems with the country.( Corporate America and government) . Instead this writer and more like him make some idiotic comparison to competition and the working's class, yet, the lack of competition and hard work is what directly led to the current problems by the elites that own this country. The corporate medias refusal to ever question authority is disgusting and a down right failure. These people get paid tons of money to "inform" us but we get articles blaming workers of the U.S. problems.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by doublem »

Isn't the problem here that conservatives seem to never admit that conservatism is a failure? It's always that person wasn't a conservative or conservative enough.( George Bush). This is a narrative that never seems to be questioned. Yet when left wing policies fail, "Liberals never no what they are doing OMG, OMG." All social programs have to go, no more regulation, etc, etc.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by cs6687 »

doublem wrote:Isn't the problem here that conservatives seem to never admit that conservatism is a failure? It's always that person wasn't a conservative or conservative enough.( George Bush). This is a narrative that never seems to be questioned. Yet when left wing policies fail, "Liberals never no what they are doing OMG, OMG." All social programs have to go, no more regulation, etc, etc.
Because when capitalism is working, you get the US in the 80s, when this country was far and away the best-run country in the world. In contrast, every socialist/communist system throughout history has failed. Look it up. Conservatism is not a failure when it works. When socialist policies work, that particular country DIES.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Geezer »

cs6687 wrote:
doublem wrote:Isn't the problem here that conservatives seem to never admit that conservatism is a failure? It's always that person wasn't a conservative or conservative enough.( George Bush). This is a narrative that never seems to be questioned. Yet when left wing policies fail, "Liberals never no what they are doing OMG, OMG." All social programs have to go, no more regulation, etc, etc.
Because when capitalism is working, you get the US in the 80s, when this country was far and away the best-run country in the world. In contrast, every socialist/communist system throughout history has failed. Look it up. Conservatism is not a failure when it works. When socialist policies work, that particular country DIES.
Our country was founded and prospered on free enterprise and individual freedom, not on so cialengineering, big government or micromanagement of bureaucrats. Socialism has never worked and never will. When you take away people's incentive to work hard to better themselves and they quit working hard or simply quit working. Upward mobility has been a common theme in this country through most of its history. No one is going to voulntarily work 2 jobs, work full time while going to school full time or make similar sacrifices for their comrades or for big brother,but you'll never convince the lefties of that.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by doublem »

cs6687 wrote:
doublem wrote:Isn't the problem here that conservatives seem to never admit that conservatism is a failure? It's always that person wasn't a conservative or conservative enough.( George Bush). This is a narrative that never seems to be questioned. Yet when left wing policies fail, "Liberals never no what they are doing OMG, OMG." All social programs have to go, no more regulation, etc, etc.
Because when capitalism is working, you get the US in the 80s, when this country was far and away the best-run country in the world. In contrast, every socialist/communist system throughout history has failed. Look it up. Conservatism is not a failure when it works. When socialist policies work, that particular country DIES.
Ummm okay, but that isn't true. The country was not working in the 1980s. If you mean working for some people okay, yes the top 1% got a lot richer doing RR terms. Policies in the 1980s are what led to the problems we have today. Who brought up socialism/communism? I'm assuming you think that all social programs/ government intervention are communist??? RR was a failure, like George Bush was failure, like George H.W. Bush was failure, but conservatism never fails......

Here are some numbers to look at http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/18392 ... of-the-u-s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Image
Image
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shane613 »

HomerPenguin wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:Are we going to nation-build every 3rd world country to a point where they are no longer corrupt and are willing an able to police themselves for our national security? If I were a terrorist and was serious about bringing down the US, I'd play this cat-and-mouse game until the US went bankrupt - which really may not take very long.
These are excellent points.

And you were where, again, when Junior decided to take us all on his excellent adventure to Baghdad?
i'm pretty sure whoever was president was going to go to iraq eventually http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d105:H.R.4655" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;: this bill was signed in 98 when clinton was president and it says "to establish a program to support a transition to democracy in Iraq." and "Became Public Law No: 105-338" whatever that means...soooo does that mean it was u.s. gov't policy from 98-now to change iraq's gov't?
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by doublem »

Geezer wrote:
cs6687 wrote:
doublem wrote:Isn't the problem here that conservatives seem to never admit that conservatism is a failure? It's always that person wasn't a conservative or conservative enough.( George Bush). This is a narrative that never seems to be questioned. Yet when left wing policies fail, "Liberals never no what they are doing OMG, OMG." All social programs have to go, no more regulation, etc, etc.
Because when capitalism is working, you get the US in the 80s, when this country was far and away the best-run country in the world. In contrast, every socialist/communist system throughout history has failed. Look it up. Conservatism is not a failure when it works. When socialist policies work, that particular country DIES.
Our country was founded and prospered on free enterprise and individual freedom, not on so cialengineering, big government or micromanagement of bureaucrats. Socialism has never worked and never will. When you take away people's incentive to work hard to better themselves and they quit working hard or simply quit working. Upward mobility has been a common theme in this country through most of its history. No one is going to voulntarily work 2 jobs, work full time while going to school full time or make similar sacrifices for their comrades or for big brother,but you'll never convince the lefties of that.
Again, what you are talking about has nothing to do with facts. Who is talking about "socialism"? I guess by your def. of socialism every country in Europe, the U.S. since the Depression are failures?? I guess Alexander Hamilton, George Washington, were all socialist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_S ... onomics%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Is that right? And, where do you get this country was founded on "free enterprise"? Where does it say that in the DOI or Constitution? It's very irritating when someone try to compare socialism to liberalism. You do know the difference right? Upward mobility has been a theme in this countries history, key word history.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by doublem »

Here is a history of deregulation since the 1970s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregulation#United_States" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The claimed great gipper helped this along a great deal.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Pavel Bure »

doublem wrote:Here is a history of deregulation since the 1970s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregulation#United_States" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The claimed great gipper helped this along a great deal.
Wikipedia :face:
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by doublem »

Pavel Bure wrote:
doublem wrote:Here is a history of deregulation since the 1970s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregulation#United_States" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The claimed great gipper helped this along a great deal.
Wikipedia :face:
And that makes it any less true? It's just an easy way of posting info. I already posting facts and stats. http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/18392 ... of-the-u-s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by doublem »

Here is another link. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/1 ... 59516.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/saez-USt ... 06prel.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by doublem »

This is what I'm talking about. Conservatism never fails it's just the people that screw it up..... even the Gipper himself. :D So who are these mythical conservatives that are "pure" to Conservatism?

http://rawstory.com/2009/11/reagan-woul ... rity-test/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Geezer »

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/ ... 933699.ece" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What a shame. More great art expression being supressed.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by GaryRissling »

HomerPenguin wrote:
GaryRissling wrote:As I said in another thread, the lack of critical thinking in this country is a serious problem.
"Critical thinking" here apparently being a metaphor for "making something up and pretending it's a fact."
EDIT: Wait a minute - didn't you just go on about how you're sick of people getting their opinions for Drudge, then regurgitating them on here? ...but if someone you think is a Republican differs from what the right-ish sites are saying, they're a hypocrite? How does this work exactly?
Mm, no, I think I was pretty clear about who I consider to be a hypocrite, and in fact it includes those right-wing nutjob sites. Or are we now pretending that the right-wing "ZOMG TEH DEFICITS!!!!" crowd doesn't include a whole mess of folks who didn't give a second thought to deficits when their guy was the one racking them up?

By "critical thinking" I was referring to the use of deductive reasoning in order to derive a conclusion; which is what I was asking you to do. To say that you can't respond to a hypothetical, might be fine if this was some sort of trial or interview, but take that position on a sports message board should be grounds for a facepalm, but I don't like to use emoticons.

And regarding deficits, I take exception to the notion that I am somehow pigeonholed with the Republican party on this. If you care, which you don't because it doesn't serve your argument, take a look at the TARP thread or the election thread - I specifically said that I wouldn't vote for any republican that supported TARP (except foe McCain because I wanted a split government). That's where I was a year ago FYI.
Last edited by GaryRissling on Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by GaryRissling »

HomerPenguin wrote:
Guinness wrote:You didn't start this little snit over "every" deficit-hawk. You started it over GaryRissling... which would have been less of a "snit" and more of a "valid point" if he were on here bawling about deficits while at the same time advocating these wars in the here-and-now, and not some guess you might have as to his views 5 years ago.
Of course, I didn't make a guess, I asked a question. I was pretty sure what the answer would be before I asked it, but it was still a question.
And regardless of Gary's views, it's just as tiresome to see someone attempt to de-legitimize a person (not an argument) as is hypocrisy.
Well goodness knows I hate to tire you. But as much as I hate crossing our Exalted Political Guru, the messenger does matter to some of us.
But you AGREED with my message regarding Afghanistan! And you STILL wanted to turn the argument into a boring and nonsensical personal attack that has readers rolling their eyes.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by HomerPenguin »

GaryRissling wrote:But you AGREED with my message regarding Afghanistan!
Yes, plus I agreed with it even when the Republican was in office so, you know, I've been on that message for a while now. Now that you mention it, how exactly did that become "your" message?
And you STILL wanted to turn the argument into a boring and nonsensical personal attack that has readers rolling their eyes.
I've caused eye rolling? Oh noes!
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by HomerPenguin »

GaryRissling wrote:By "critical thinking" I was referring to the use of deductive reasoning in order to derive a conclusion; which is what I was asking you to do. To say that you can't respond to a hypothetical, might be fine if this was some sort of trial or interview, but take that position on a sports message board should be grounds for a facepalm, but I don't like to use emoticons.
A facepalm? Oh noes!

My deductive reasoning tells me that Kerry would have drawn our involvement in Iraq back drastically and refocused on Afghanistan. When things proved intractable there as they inevitably would, his Republican Congress, because it would have been a Republican Congress, would have helpfully offered him the choice between staying in Afghanistan and being called a reckless nation-builder squandering our money overseas or pulling out of Afghanistan and being called a terror-loving coward, because that's how Republicans roll. The politics of it would have been so spoiled that, by the time Karzai stole the election at the very latest, we would have been out of there.

Of course, you'll say I just imagined all of that because the narrative sounds nice and fits my argument, and you'd be right. But hopefully you'd be self aware enough to admit that you did exactly the same thing.

That's why I don't do hypotheticals; because they don't mean anything.
And regarding deficits, I take exception to the notion that I am somehow pigeonholed with the Republican party on this. If you care, which you don't because it doesn't serve your argument, take a look at the TARP thread or the election thread - I specifically said that I wouldn't vote for any republican that supported TARP (except foe McCain because I wanted a split government). That's where I was a year ago FYI.
So you wouldn't vote for any TARP Republican except, er, the one running for president, which I guess is nice. Congrats on coming around on the deficit in year 8 of the Bush deficit party, just in time for the Democrat to take over so you could be bipartisan about it and all.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by GaryRissling »

HomerPenguin wrote:
Yes, plus I agreed with it even when the Republican was in office so, you know, I've been on that message for a while now. Now that you mention it, how exactly did that become "your" message?
Sorry, the page must have cut off the "Homer Penguin" citation I added as a footnote. You are truly a prophet and you have had a remarkable influence on my letsgopens.com "LGP Political Discussion Thread" posts. I hope my signature now meets your approval.


Any content of the above post Homer Penguin agrees with, is with full credit to Homer Penguin. Approval pending.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by GaryRissling »

HomerPenguin wrote:Congrats on coming around on the deficit in year 8 of the Bush deficit party, just in time for the Democrat to take over so you could be bipartisan about it and all.

And what was my position on Bush's post 9-11 stimulus payments?

Any content of the above post Homer Penguin agrees with, is with full credit to Homer Penguin. Approval pending.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

HomerPenguin wrote:
Guinness wrote:You didn't start this little snit over "every" deficit-hawk. You started it over GaryRissling... which would have been less of a "snit" and more of a "valid point" if he were on here bawling about deficits while at the same time advocating these wars in the here-and-now, and not some guess you might have as to his views 5 years ago.
Of course, I didn't make a guess, I asked a question. I was pretty sure what the answer would be before I asked it, but it was still a question.
:lol:
And regardless of Gary's views, it's just as tiresome to see someone attempt to de-legitimize a person (not an argument) as is hypocrisy.
Well goodness knows I hate to tire you. But as much as I hate crossing our Exalted Political Guru, the messenger does matter to some of us.
Jealousy, Homer? Oh my...