LGP Political Discussion Thread

[Geezer]

So Obama again doesn't understand his current position and was only 1 of 47 diginitaries who bowed to the emperor of Japan. Heads of State simply do not bow to other Heads of State. It was wrong when he bowed to the Saudi King and wrong again. And you want to know who's most upset about this? The Japanese. They are viewing this as a sign of weakness and considering the US is still proctecting Japan militarly I'm sure they're just pleased as punch that Obama is making a fool of himself on the international stage while North Korea is testing missles that have a range within striking distance of Tokyo.

Are etiquette customs really THAT important?

The dignity and respect of the office is THAT important to many Americans; hard to say if it's important to the majority of Americans anymore. U.S. soveirgnity isn't even important to many lefties.

[shafnutz05]

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/abc-news ... id=9095621

I sincerely wonder how many other cases of this crap are going to come out across the United States. When this economic stimulus was passed, people everywhere were warning about the potential for cooked numbers and fraud.

And again, I go back to the Obama healthcare bill. After seeing how hellbent this administration is on inflating the numbers to make their legislation seem like a success (which it hasn't been), how can anyone take the Democrats at their word when they say Obamacare will:

a) increase costs
b) be deficit neutral
c) "only" cost $1.2 trillion over 10 years?
d) improve quality of care

The Obama misinformation campaign is running full throttle right now.

The Obama administration, under fire for inflating job growth from the $787 billion stimulus plan, slashed over 60,000 jobs from its most recent report on the program because the reporting outlets had submitted "unrealistic data," according to a document obtained by ABC News. A document from the Office of Management and Budget obtained by ABC News shows that before an Oct. 30 progress report on the government stimulus program the administration asked the Recovery Accountability and Transparency Board to remove information from 12 stimulus recipients that contained "unrealistic data," including "unrealistic job data." OMB deputy director Rob Nabors, pictured, said that most of the information that stimulus recipients provided to the government was good.

The Office of Management and Budget document shows that before an Oct. 30 progress report on the program the administration asked the Recovery Accountability and Transparency Board to remove information from 12 stimulus recipients that contained "unrealistic data," including "unrealistic job data."

One recipient – Talladega County of Alabama – claimed that 5,000 jobs had been saved or created from only $42,000 in stimulus funds.

[doublem]

http://www.salon.com/news/terrorism/ind ... /terrorism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In other words, the very policies the U.S. has been pursuing in the name of combating Terrorism -- invading, occupying, and bombing Muslim countries; locking them up without trials; torturing them; violating the values we've been preaching to the world -- have been the most potent instruments for fueling Islamic radicalism and terrorism. By contrast, those who have been continuously accused of being "soft on Terrorism" and even being allied with the Terrorists -- those who opposes our various wars, who demanded and provided basic human rights protections and equal liberties to Muslims, who objected to their own governments' oppressive and belligerent policies -- have done more to diffuse and impede Muslim radicalism than virtually anyone else in the world.

Great piece.

[dagny]

So Obama again doesn't understand his current position and was only 1 of 47 diginitaries who bowed to the emperor of Japan. Heads of State simply do not bow to other Heads of State. It was wrong when he bowed to the Saudi King and wrong again. And you want to know who's most upset about this? The Japanese. They are viewing this as a sign of weakness and considering the US is still proctecting Japan militarly I'm sure they're just pleased as punch that Obama is making a fool of himself on the international stage while North Korea is testing missles that have a range within striking distance of Tokyo.

As much as I dislike Obama as our President, I have no problem with him showing respect to other countries' customs. IMO, humbling oneself to show respect earns a more noble kind of respect in return. Holding one's nose in the air out of superiority is not respectable.

[Guinness]

http://www.salon.com/news/terrorism/ind ... /terrorism

In other words, the very policies the U.S. has been pursuing in the name of combating Terrorism -- invading, occupying, and bombing Muslim countries; locking them up without trials; torturing them; violating the values we've been preaching to the world -- have been the most potent instruments for fueling Islamic radicalism and terrorism. By contrast, those who have been continuously accused of being "soft on Terrorism" and even being allied with the Terrorists -- those who opposes our various wars, who demanded and provided basic human rights protections and equal liberties to Muslims, who objected to their own governments' oppressive and belligerent policies -- have done more to diffuse and impede Muslim radicalism than virtually anyone else in the world.

Great piece.

Agreed, but who in our government has done this? (I mean, besides Ron Paul, of course. ).

[DelPen]

So Obama again doesn't understand his current position and was only 1 of 47 diginitaries who bowed to the emperor of Japan. Heads of State simply do not bow to other Heads of State. It was wrong when he bowed to the Saudi King and wrong again. And you want to know who's most upset about this? The Japanese. They are viewing this as a sign of weakness and considering the US is still proctecting Japan militarly I'm sure they're just pleased as punch that Obama is making a fool of himself on the international stage while North Korea is testing missles that have a range within striking distance of Tokyo.

As much as I dislike Obama as our President, I have no problem with him showing respect to other countries' customs. IMO, humbling oneself to show respect earns a more noble kind of respect in return. Holding one's nose in the air out of superiority is not respectable.

Tha's not it at all though, if bowing was acceptable then at least one other leader would have done the same but they didn't. A hand shake and a nod is more than enough respect to show heads of state and is more than enough. And If Obama were consistant in his "respect" then why not bow to the Queen of England? This is about him trying to apologoze for something whether it be the proper framing of the war on terror as a war against militant islam when he bpwed to the Saudi king or for using a weapon to end a war that ended up saving millions of lives in Japan. He also refused to justify dropping the bombs on Japan unlike every other President from Truman to W.

[DelPen]

http://www.salon.com/news/terrorism/ind ... /terrorism

In other words, the very policies the U.S. has been pursuing in the name of combating Terrorism -- invading, occupying, and bombing Muslim countries; locking them up without trials; torturing them; violating the values we've been preaching to the world -- have been the most potent instruments for fueling Islamic radicalism and terrorism. By contrast, those who have been continuously accused of being "soft on Terrorism" and even being allied with the Terrorists -- those who opposes our various wars, who demanded and provided basic human rights protections and equal liberties to Muslims, who objected to their own governments' oppressive and belligerent policies -- have done more to diffuse and impede Muslim radicalism than virtually anyone else in the world.

Great piece.

If you want to beleive that this is true then yes, great piece. But in the real world, it doesn't matter what the US does in dealing with militant Islam, they will always hate the West and the freedoms it gives everyone. I don't seem to recall a general widespread persecution against Muslims leading up to 9-11, this quote does nothing to explain how or why that happened.

[bh]

http://www.salon.com/news/terrorism/ind ... /terrorism

In other words, the very policies the U.S. has been pursuing in the name of combating Terrorism -- invading, occupying, and bombing Muslim countries; locking them up without trials; torturing them; violating the values we've been preaching to the world -- have been the most potent instruments for fueling Islamic radicalism and terrorism. By contrast, those who have been continuously accused of being "soft on Terrorism" and even being allied with the Terrorists -- those who opposes our various wars, who demanded and provided basic human rights protections and equal liberties to Muslims, who objected to their own governments' oppressive and belligerent policies -- have done more to diffuse and impede Muslim radicalism than virtually anyone else in the world.

Great piece.

If you want to beleive that this is true then yes, great piece. But in the real world, it doesn't matter what the US does in dealing with militant Islam, they will always hate the West and the freedoms it gives everyone. I don't seem to recall a general widespread persecution against Muslims leading up to 9-11, this quote does nothing to explain how or why that happened.

Del, the US has done more to inflame and foster militant Islam than any other nation. Read this book and then tell me that a lot of these guys don't have a right to be upset. You're looking at things in a narrow scope of time. There is so much history leading up to the radicals views today. Yes the west most certainly did persecute and take advantage of (and still does) Middle Eastern countries. Do I condone their violence? No of course not but when we take out moderate secular governments and replace their leaders with our own pawns we shouldn't seem surprised when the radical religious rise up in protest. The latest crusades of Bush just add fuel to the fire. Terrorism has been around since ancient times. It is nothing "new" as the media and the US government would lead you to believe. It is cheap and effective and produces results. The terrorists are winning because they are goading us into spending trillions on defense which is going to help bankrupt our nation. To think that the radicals hate the west because of "freedom" is laughable.

[bh]

So Obama again doesn't understand his current position and was only 1 of 47 diginitaries who bowed to the emperor of Japan. Heads of State simply do not bow to other Heads of State. It was wrong when he bowed to the Saudi King and wrong again. And you want to know who's most upset about this? The Japanese. They are viewing this as a sign of weakness and considering the US is still proctecting Japan militarly I'm sure they're just pleased as punch that Obama is making a fool of himself on the international stage while North Korea is testing missles that have a range within striking distance of Tokyo.

As much as I dislike Obama as our President, I have no problem with him showing respect to other countries' customs. IMO, humbling oneself to show respect earns a more noble kind of respect in return. Holding one's nose in the air out of superiority is not respectable.

Tha's not it at all though, if bowing was acceptable then at least one other leader would have done the same but they didn't. A hand shake and a nod is more than enough respect to show heads of state and is more than enough. And If Obama were consistant in his "respect" then why not bow to the Queen of England? This is about him trying to apologoze for something whether it be the proper framing of the war on terror as a war against militant islam when he bpwed to the Saudi king or for using a weapon to end a war that ended up saving millions of lives in Japan. He also refused to justify dropping the bombs on Japan unlike every other President from Truman to W.

So you feel that the ends justify the means? Killing thousands of innocents is ok as long as it's for the "greater good". gotcha. It's kinda convienient that our values are only our values until they get in the way. Then they're discarded and the new ones are rationalized in some way. Kinda like Bush saying that we need to abandon free market principles to save the free market. ha!

[shafnutz05]

While I agree we have done much to foster "radical Islam", it is what it is. I have no control over what our government did over the past 50 years. It's done, and it can't be undone. But we have to face the facts: radical Islam is an extremely dangerous threat, and putting our head in the sand isn't going to change that. The Fort Hood Massacre is a great example. And if you think that completely gutting our national defense and withdrawing from the Middle East is going to make all of these radicalized Muslims suddenly want to play nice, that is a very naive way of thinking.

I do agree on the democracy delusion...to think we can instill a modern democratic government in a third-world, Stone Age country is beyond wishful. For starters, the Koran makes it very clear that the only acceptable form of government is a theocracy. Unlike the Bible, there is no allowance for the separation of church and state, i.e. "Give unto Caesar's what is Caesar's." If people living in these countries want to escape the tyranny of these mullahs, they can emigrate. But we will never be able to instill democracy over there.

On a side note, be prepared for a complete monkey trial in New York City. Even Gov. Paterson (whom I have never agreed with) is outraged at the White House decision to try the 9/11 masterminds in a civil courthouse in NYC. This opens up the door to so many problems....death threats, suicide attacks, etc. And I guarantee you that this trial is going to be less of a prosecution of KSM, and more of a prosecution of the United States. Let's make it very clear...there is no doubting the guilt of these individuals. This is the latest in a long line of apologetic maneuvers by this administration. Sec. Holder is not placing the terrorists on trial...he is placing the United States on trial.

[shafnutz05]

So you feel that the ends justify the means? Killing thousands of innocents is ok as long as it's for the "greater good". gotcha. It's kinda convienient that our values are only our values until they get in the way.

In the case of Hiroshima/Nagasaki, the ends DID justify the means. If we hadn't have dropped the bombs, we would have been looking at a ground invasion into Japan. That would have resulted in many more civilian deaths, as well as our own men. Was it unfortunate? Absolutely. But the Japanese were fanatically devoted to Hirohito. Hence the kamikaze fighters flying their planes directly onto the deck of our aircraft carriers.

And don't forget, the bomb on Nagasaki was dropped 72 hours after Hiroshima. Hirohito, even after Hiroshima, refused to surrender. If we had to actually invade the mainland of Japan, the war would have been a lot uglier and a lot longer. I don't think the US needs to apologize for their actions in World War II at all.

[shafnutz05]

http://blogs.reuters.com/james-pethokou ... re-reform/

One aspect of Obama's massive government spending programs that is going largely unnoticed is how foreign investors are going to view our economy. The Chinese have made it very clear that they think the new administration is economically-challenged. Hence why Obama is over there begging them not to pull their dollars out of our economy. The Chinese know for a fact that these policies are going to lead to massive inflation....which is why I would not be surprised if they pulled all of their dollars out.

BTW, I saw a very interesting statistic today...let me know what you guys think. This is from the 2008 National Insurer Report Card. Medicare, a government-run insurance program, denied almost 7% of the claims filed in 2008. Private insurers, on the other hand, denied less than 4% of all claims filed.

When a claim is denied by a private insurer, the person in question has legal recourse: they can file an appeal, take the insurance company to court, and you can get punitive damages on top of the original sum if you win.

What happens if the government-run insurance program denies your claim? Your only recourse is the government's own appeals process; which, of course, is designed to be stacked heavily against you. If your claim is denied through the "public option", you have pretty much exhausted your only option to get care.

But again, we go back to the old principle..tell a group of people that something will be "free" or "low cost", and they immediately assume it's going to be better than what is in place now. All of you naive, naive people.

[Hockeynut!]

BTW, I saw a very interesting statistic today...let me know what you guys think. This is from the 2008 National Insurer Report Card. Medicare, a government-run insurance program, denied almost 7% of the claims filed in 2008.

Medicare's denials are higher because of medicare fraud. Doctors take advantage of the system and milk it for every penny they can, often ordering unnecessary tests and procedures and scheduling equally unnecessary appointments just so they can collect the paycheck. It should actually be a lot higher than 7%.

[shafnutz05]

Medicare's denials are higher because of medicare fraud. Doctors take advantage of the system and milk it for every penny they can, often ordering unnecessary tests and procedures and scheduling equally unnecessary appointments just so they can collect the paycheck. It should actually be a lot higher than 7%.

That's a very fair point...but the appeals issue is something that I feel is of legitimate concern. I have dealt with government bureaucracy and their "appeals" process before. You are pretty much screwed, without recourse.

Has anyone checked out this article?

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysi ... ?id=506199

The White House has touted the support from the AMA...what a lot of people don't realize is that the American Medical Association represents far less than half of the practicing physicians in the United States. And it also goes back to a point I made a couple months ago. If this bill is passed, we are going to see a massive decrease in the number of practicing physicians, and a decrease in students interested in entering the field. At the same time, we are going to force almost 50 million people into the healthcare system. This will result in massive shortages and rationing; thus, the claim denial percentage will likely increase in a big way as well.

[GaryRissling]

http://blogs.reuters.com/james-pethokou ... re-reform/

One aspect of Obama's massive government spending programs that is going largely unnoticed is how foreign investors are going to view our economy. The Chinese have made it very clear that they think the new administration is economically-challenged. Hence why Obama is over there begging them not to pull their dollars out of our economy. The Chinese know for a fact that these policies are going to lead to massive inflation....which is why I would not be surprised if they pulled all of their dollars out.

This is actually the only thing about our situation that I am "happy" about. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Chinese are behind the scenes killing cap and trade/copenhagen and doing more to limit the size and expenses of our government than nearly any US politician...but it would not be in their interest either - to say the least - for the dollar to collapse, which is where I differ from the hardcore bears. IMO, they will reduce the amount of treasuries they buy depending on whether our policies will drive the value up or down, but they will still buy them in order to avoid the risk of a real panic. We've already had Big Ben and Barry come out this week saying they will enact policies to protect the dollar's value in order to help smooth things along during Obama's visit. We should be thanking the Chinese for providing a check and balance to our off-the-rails government.

[shafnutz05]

Interesting point Gary. Although, if the Chinese are behind the scenes killing cap and trade, I hope they continue what they are doing. The cap and trade system would bring on massive fraud....the Australian government had to suspend their own cap and trade system because it was literally wrecking their economy and making energy prices skyrocket. I recycle, and I conserve. That should be enough.

[bh]

While I agree we have done much to foster "radical Islam", it is what it is. I have no control over what our government did over the past 50 years. It's done, and it can't be undone. But we have to face the facts: radical Islam is an extremely dangerous threat, and putting our head in the sand isn't going to change that. The Fort Hood Massacre is a great example. And if you think that completely gutting our national defense and withdrawing from the Middle East is going to make all of these radicalized Muslims suddenly want to play nice, that is a very naive way of thinking.

You, don't have control over what the government does now. I'm not calling to put our heads in the sand, I'm calling for us to end the empire. Defense of our country doesn't need to be defense of the world. I also disagree that terrorism is a serious threat. Even in the unlikely even that they could set a nuke off somewhere, that wouldn't or shouldn't destroy the USA. Life would go on. Sure we need to be vigilent but we don't need to be stomping all over the globe justifying our actions as preemtive. Most empires crumble economically not through invasion. Does it make sense to spend a trillion dollars and cripple our economy when we could spend a small fraction of that to beef up security here? War is expensive and we are getting to the end of the line with our money.

I do agree on the democracy delusion...to think we can instill a modern democratic government in a third-world, Stone Age country is beyond wishful. For starters, the Koran makes it very clear that the only acceptable form of government is a theocracy. Unlike the Bible, there is no allowance for the separation of church and state, i.e. "Give unto Caesar's what is Caesar's." If people living in these countries want to escape the tyranny of these mullahs, they can emigrate. But we will never be able to instill democracy over there.

I don't think all of those countries are third world and I think that other forms of government besides theocracy would work fine. I just don't think it's our place to tell them what to do and how to live. Most are not radicals. Let them fight it out over what form of government they want. If there was no oil there, do you think we'd be there now?

On a side note, be prepared for a complete monkey trial in New York City. Even Gov. Paterson (whom I have never agreed with) is outraged at the White House decision to try the 9/11 masterminds in a civil courthouse in NYC. This opens up the door to so many problems....death threats, suicide attacks, etc. And I guarantee you that this trial is going to be less of a prosecution of KSM, and more of a prosecution of the United States. Let's make it very clear...there is no doubting the guilt of these individuals. This is the latest in a long line of apologetic maneuvers by this administration. Sec. Holder is not placing the terrorists on trial...he is placing the United States on trial.

I don't know enough about law to comment on this. These guys have a right to a fair trial, I just don't know what type of trial it should be or what type of court should be used.

[GaryRissling]

Interesting point Gary. Although, if the Chinese are behind the scenes killing cap and trade, I hope they continue what they are doing. The cap and trade system would bring on massive fraud....the Australian government had to suspend their own cap and trade system because it was literally wrecking their economy and making energy prices skyrocket. I recycle, and I conserve. That should be enough.

I couldn't agree more. Since Obama has taken office, Geitner and Hillary have each gone to China at least two times each for the purpose of selling Treasuries, and this is a big part of Obama's visit as well.

But, it also wouln't surprise me though if China is also a key reason for Obama's Afghanistan delay. He mentioned last week about the cost of sending more troops, and IMO China is part of our de facto financing arm at this point, so surlely they have some level of influence on it.

[GaryRissling]

I didn't look for a better source for this, but if at all true, this is good news indeed.

http://blogs.reuters.com/james-pethokou ... re-reform/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Guess what? It turns out the Chinese are kind of curious about how President Barack Obama’s healthcare reform plans would impact America’s huge fiscal deficit. Government officials are using his Asian trip as an opportunity to ask the White House questions. Detailed questions.

Boilerplate assurances that America won’t default on its debt or inflate the shortfall away are apparently not cutting it. Nor should they, when one owns nearly $2 trillion in assets denominated in the currency of a country about to double its national debt over the next decade.

Nothing happening in Washington today should give Beijing any comfort or confidence about what may happen tomorrow. Healthcare reform was originally promoted as a way to “bend the curve” on escalating entitlement costs, the major part of which is financing Medicare and Medicaid. That is looking more and more like an overpromised deliverable.

[shafnutz05]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/jobs-sav ... id=9097853

Now ABC News has a story discussing how the Obama Administration is reporting jobs saved/created data for congressional districts that don't even exist. The president and his staff are issuing false information to make it look like their stimulus is a success. Again, HOW CAN YOU PEOPLE TAKE HIM AND THE REST OF CONGRESS AT THEIR WORD REGARDING THEIR HEALTHCARE BILL?!

[doublem]

http://www.salon.com/news/terrorism/ind ... /terrorism

In other words, the very policies the U.S. has been pursuing in the name of combating Terrorism -- invading, occupying, and bombing Muslim countries; locking them up without trials; torturing them; violating the values we've been preaching to the world -- have been the most potent instruments for fueling Islamic radicalism and terrorism. By contrast, those who have been continuously accused of being "soft on Terrorism" and even being allied with the Terrorists -- those who opposes our various wars, who demanded and provided basic human rights protections and equal liberties to Muslims, who objected to their own governments' oppressive and belligerent policies -- have done more to diffuse and impede Muslim radicalism than virtually anyone else in the world.

Great piece.

Agreed, but who in our government has done this? (I mean, besides Ron Paul, of course. ).

I do agree with Ron Paul on FP most of the time.

[Guinness]

I do agree with Ron Paul on FP most of the time.

And on sound money, too, no?

[doublem]

If you want to beleive that this is true then yes, great piece. But in the real world, it doesn't matter what the US does in dealing with militant Islam, they will always hate the West and the freedoms it gives everyone. I don't seem to recall a general widespread persecution against Muslims leading up to 9-11, this quote does nothing to explain how or why that happened.

Seriously? I thought that was pretty much disproven at this point.

[GaryRissling]

These two stories appear today on Politico.com

From the non-partisan Project for Government Oversight regarding Geitner's role in possibly funneling billions of US taxpayer (of which Mr. Geitner was not) dollars to AIG creditors, including Goldman Sachs.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29601.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

“Questions have been raised as to whether the Federal Reserve intentionally structured the AIG counterparty payments to benefit AIG’s counterparties — in other words that the AIG assistance was in effect a “backdoor bailout” of AIG’s counterparties,” said the report. “Then-FRBNY President Geithner and FRBNY’s general counsel deny that this was a relevant consideration for the AIG transactions.

...but Mr. Geitner is also front and center leading the charge against Wall St. corruption. You can't make this up.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29610.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In his remarks, Geithner tied the creation of the task force to the need for increased regulation of Wall Street, an effort he is pushing on Capitol Hill. “It’s not enough to go after fraud after its become widespread,” Geithner said. “Too often in the past,” he added, “enforcement resources were not mobilized on a major scale until substantial damage had already been done.

A senior administration official called the new task force "a sustained, multilevel attack on financial fraud," including mortgage rip-offs. The new task force replaces a Corporate Fraud Task Force which was established in 2002.

[doublem]

Geitner is awful. He helped us get into this mess in the first place. The FED sucks it should be removed.