LGP Political Discussion Thread

[Guinness]

The fall of the Berlin Wall was one of the crowning achievements for Western democracyshowed why Marxism was a unsustainable system that was going to collapse at one point or another.

...says the single-payer advocate.

[rasbatch]

and if he did you'd be saying "he should be in this country working on this country's problems"

I'd rather he just go play golf. Or basketball. Or go on vacation (on his own dime, of course). Or read the newspaper funnies (I don't want him reading about some "issue" and get to thinking he should be "doing" something about it).

I'm glad I'm not that cynical. I'd like to see the president succeed so this country can get back on it's feet.
But you go right ahead and shoot down every move he makes, I'm sure you'll feel very contented in the end.

[doublem]

I don't think the Europeans are going to be made at us.

They are not mad at us, just understandably disgusted at the diplomatic incompetence of the president's staff. Read the papers over there...he isn't exactly Mr. Popular anymore (quickly becoming the opposite)

Eastern Europe feels like we have turned our back on them, the Germans are P.O'ed at us now, and the Brits were disgusted with the way we conducted the diplomatic visit back in March

Really? When did we turn our back on them? We can ask Gaucho about this.

Seriously? If they are so disgusted, why did Obama just win the Peace Prize?

[doublem]

The fall of the Berlin Wall was one of the crowning achievements for Western democracyshowed why Marxism was a unsustainable system that was going to collapse at one point or another.

...says the single-payer advocate.

Lol.

[shafnutz05]

Seriously? If they are so disgusted, why did Obama just win the Peace Prize?

Oh come on doublem........please don't try to give legitimacy to that. The Nobel Peace Prize is not determined by the European Union, it is determined by a small group (less than 6) of left-wing, Norwegian politicians. And the center-right moderates on that panel had serious doubts about giving it to him, but ended up going along with the majority. That is hardly a benchmark of his image across the world, merely a recognition of how far left he is going to move the United States, which has historically been a center-right nation.

[shafnutz05]

The fall of the Berlin Wall was one of the crowning achievements for Western democracyshowed why Marxism was a unsustainable system that was going to collapse at one point or another.

...says the single-payer advocate.

Guinness if I had half your wit I would have my own radio show right now

[doublem]

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn ... 11/11/iraq" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyways, the great Glenn Greenwald at it again.

All of this underscores the painful folly of those who continue to justify American wars with the claim that we're going to magnanimously spread freedom, democracy and human rights to the countries we invade, bomb and occupy. That so plainly isn't our motive -- or anyone else's -- for fighting wars, notwithstanding whatever good intentions individual soldiers may have. And even if it were our motive, trying to re-shape other countries and cultures with military invasions is a task that, while not impossible, is close to it (I discussed that topic at length in the Bill Moyers interview I did last week in the context of reports that we have Afghan "drug kingpin" Ahmed Karzai on our payroll).

In Iraq, here we are almost seven years after the invasion -- hundreds of billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives and more than 4,000 American lives later -- and the primary remaining "justification" is that we're bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq. Yet the government we helped install and which we empower is becoming increasingly tyrannical, oppressive and brutal. We at least ought to take that strongly into account as we hear government claims that we need to remain, and escalate, in Afghanistan for the good of the people there.

[shafnutz05]

oops, Swedish, not Norwegian. Sorry I get the countries with the beautiful blonde Nordic babes mixed up sometimes

[Guinness]

and if he did you'd be saying "he should be in this country working on this country's problems"

I'd rather he just go play golf. Or basketball. Or go on vacation (on his own dime, of course). Or read the newspaper funnies (I don't want him reading about some "issue" and get to thinking he should be "doing" something about it).

I'm glad I'm not that cynical. I'd like to see the president succeed so this country can get back on it's feet.
But you go right ahead and shoot down every move he makes, I'm sure you'll feel very contented in the end.

I will, thanks. Just as I did with his predecessor, and will do with his successor... and I'll continue to do it until we're weened off of this pathetic, infantile notion that some boy-wonder in Washington, D.C., can make everything - anything - all better (or until my right to do so is abridged). It's the deranged, power-hungry, egotistical buggers themselves who've caused most of our problems anyway... particularly this economic calamity. I'm not sure why I should count on them to help "get the country back on it's feet".

[doublem]

Seriously? If they are so disgusted, why did Obama just win the Peace Prize?

Oh come on doublem........please don't try to give legitimacy to that. The Nobel Peace Prize is not determined by the European Union, it is determined by a small group (less than 6) of left-wing, Norwegian politicians. And the center-right moderates on that panel had serious doubts about giving it to him, but ended up going along with the majority. That is hardly a benchmark of his image across the world, merely a recognition of how far left he is going to move the United States, which has historically been a center-right nation.

But I thought the Euros were a bunch of socialist. Where are you getting this from? I have yet to hear any Europeans having there feelings hurt by this, and this is what you are basically making this out to be.

[shafnutz05]

lol doublem I agree with that column....it is a complete pipe dream to think we can spread democracy to places like that. Those countries are living (for the most part) in the Stone Age. Same with Vietnam....they were a primitive people that wouldn't even begin to be able to grasp the idea of democracy. I am 100% in agreement with you as far as those ground wars are concerned.

I DO think that we need to be constantly coordinating targeted, tactical strikes against terrorist havens over there. But we don't need several hundred thousand men on the ground to do that. If any of our NATO allies is in trouble, we should be the first country to send military aid. But to bring democracy to a culture that still stones teenage girls for flirting with boys? The hell with that...just isolate them.

[Guinness]

The fall of the Berlin Wall was one of the crowning achievements for Western democracyshowed why Marxism was a unsustainable system that was going to collapse at one point or another.

...says the single-payer advocate.

Guinness if I had half your wit I would have my own radio show right now

If I had a radio show, you wouldn't like about half of the things I had to say.

[Guinness]

The fall of the Berlin Wall was one of the crowning achievements for Western democracyshowed why Marxism was a unsustainable system that was going to collapse at one point or another.

...says the single-payer advocate.

Lol.

Sorry... Socialsim. Whatev... Same diff...

[shafnutz05]

But I thought the Euros were a bunch of socialist. Where are you getting this from? I have yet to hear any Europeans having there feelings hurt by this, and this is what you are basically making this out to be.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... -relations

This is the best article I could find detailing this in a European paper. Among many European citizens, I am sure there is still that celebrity mentality when it comes to Obama, and he is still very popular. My point was, the governments themselves have been much less than impressed with him so far, and they are the ones we need to diplomatically impress. Eastern Europe and the former Soviet bloc stands out in particular; there, I would venture to guess that even the citizens themselves are not too happy with Obama's policy decisions so far (cave to Russia repeatedly, for one)

[shafnutz05]

I would listen Guinness...I must say, since about 2003 or so, my views have shifted from leaning towards neoconservatism, back to paleoconservatism, and now leaning towards libertarianism. The problem is, the federal government will never adopt anything remotely resembling libertarianism, because it limits their power. As far as Iraq/Vietnam/Afghanistan, I agree that the ground wars have been a waste of time, money, and American lives.

[Guinness]

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn ... 11/11/iraq

Anyways, the great Glenn Greenwald at it again.

All of this underscores the painful folly of those who continue to justify American wars with the claim that we're going to magnanimously spread freedom, democracy and human rights to the countries we invade, bomb and occupy. That so plainly isn't our motive -- or anyone else's -- for fighting wars, notwithstanding whatever good intentions individual soldiers may have. And even if it were our motive, trying to re-shape other countries and cultures with military invasions is a task that, while not impossible, is close to it (I discussed that topic at length in the Bill Moyers interview I did last week in the context of reports that we have Afghan "drug kingpin" Ahmed Karzai on our payroll).

In Iraq, here we are almost seven years after the invasion -- hundreds of billions of dollars, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives and more than 4,000 American lives later -- and the primary remaining "justification" is that we're bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq. Yet the government we helped install and which we empower is becoming increasingly tyrannical, oppressive and brutal. We at least ought to take that strongly into account as we hear government claims that we need to remain, and escalate, in Afghanistan for the good of the people there.

Agreed, entirely. Iraq will likely go down as one of the most egregious foreign policy errors in history, not withstanding the tragic, unspeakable toll in human lives... blood is on all of our hands.

[doublem]

It's the deranged, power-hungry, egotistical buggers themselves who've caused most of our problems anyway... particularly this economic calamity.

We will just leave it up to the deranged, power-hungry, egotistical buggers in business to make the economy start moving again.

[shafnutz05]

While I agree with that column, the gross exaggeration and misrepresentation of Iraqi deaths has got to stop. For starters, taking armed fighters out of the equation, this number barely reaches 100,000. Most of these deaths have been caused by insurgent attacks, bombers, etc.

Again, I do agree that the ground war was a horrible decision. However, can we please stop making our soldiers sound like brazen, barbaric vikings raping and murdering entire villages?

[Guinness]

It's the deranged, power-hungry, egotistical buggers themselves who've caused most of our problems anyway... particularly this economic calamity.

We will just leave it up to the deranged, power-hungry, egotistical buggers in business to make the economy start moving again.

At least they don't have the power to make laws that favor themselves... nope. They need the gubmint for that. Nor can they print money. Huh-uh... need gubmint for that, too.

[shafnutz05]

We will just leave it up to the deranged, power-hungry, egotistical buggers in business to make the economy start moving again.

I'm sorry, but I trust business owners more than I trust politicians to get the economy moving again. The problem with that damned, God-forsaken stimulus was that it fed money to the same people that got us into this mess in the first place. If the stimulus money would have been directed at business owners and entrepreneurs, we would be well on our way to recovery by now.

[rasbatch]

[I'd rather he just go play golf. Or basketball. Or go on vacation (on his own dime, of course). Or read the newspaper funnies (I don't want him reading about some "issue" and get to thinking he should be "doing" something about it).

I'm glad I'm not that cynical. I'd like to see the president succeed so this country can get back on it's feet.
But you go right ahead and shoot down every move he makes, I'm sure you'll feel very contented in the end.

I will, thanks. Just as I did with his predecessor, and will do with his successor... and I'll continue to do it until we're weened off of this pathetic, infantile notion that some boy-wonder in Washington, D.C., can make everything - anything - all better (or until my right to do so is abridged). It's the deranged, power-hungry, egotistical buggers themselves who've caused most of our problems anyway... particularly this economic calamity. I'm not sure why I should count on them to help "get the country back on it's feet".

Well for one it's the only system we got. This whole "boy wonder" thing is a bull. I know a lot of liberals and none
I mean none view him as god or a savior or anything other than a man plain and simple. It's the right wing that has concocted
that whole notion that bulk of the left see him as god. Sure a few stupid people take hero worship to far.
You go ahead and wait around for something else I'll continue to work for the here an now.

[shafnutz05]

Rasbatch, I don't think MOST liberals view Obama as a God. But you cannot deny the messianic mentality that was going around back in the second half of 2008. You had people swooning and crying, collapsing on the ground in a stupor. I would hesitate to say a majority of people viewed Obama as a Messiah, but at the very least it was a significant percentage of the Left.

And Obama's team certainly did everything they could to enhance that image. Did you know that his sound crew constantly turned the reverb up as high as it would go to make his voice sound like it was "booming down from above"? And don't get me started on the pillars he put in Invesco field for his "Emperor's speech"

[Guinness]

While I agree with that column, the gross exaggeration and misrepresentation of Iraqi deaths has got to stop. For starters, taking armed fighters out of the equation, this number barely reaches 100,000. Most of these deaths have been caused by insurgent attacks, bombers, etc.

Again, I do agree that the ground war was a horrible decision. However, can we please stop making our soldiers sound like brazen, barbaric vikings raping and murdering entire villages?

Given that it was an illegal and immoral war sold to us on bogus claims and outright lies, don't you think that one - let alone 100,000 HUMAN BEINGS - is unforgiveable? (There needs to be better word than this...)

[doublem]

It's the deranged, power-hungry, egotistical buggers themselves who've caused most of our problems anyway... particularly this economic calamity.

We will just leave it up to the deranged, power-hungry, egotistical buggers in business to make the economy start moving again.

At least they don't have the power to make laws that favor themselves... nope. They need the gubmint for that. Nor can they print money. Huh-uh... need gubmint for that, too.

They pretty much do since they are sleeping in the same bed with the G. Power and control is intertwined in this country

[shafnutz05]

Given that it was an illegal and immoral war sold to us on bogus claims and outright lies, don't you think that one - let alone 100,000 HUMAN BEINGS - is unforgiveable? (There needs to be better word than this...)

While I agree, the media has been exaggerating these numbers since the war started. And again...they tout out the "civilian death" total, but they neglect to mention how many of them were murdered by fanatical insurgents. Except for a couple bad apples that go insane, I am tired of the military being portrayed as murderers. They were sent there on a mission...they can't just refuse to go. Side note (again)...John Murtha should have been impeached (or whatever the equivalent is in the House) for the way he smeared the Marines at Haditha.

As far as our opinion on the war itself goes, we are still in agreement

However, I DO think we need to have a military presence in Afghanistan. A main forward base that can easily deploy either unmanned or manned strike aircraft to take out terrorist camps and hotspots as they are discovered. Would cost a lot less money and lives then the mess we are in now.