LGP Political Discussion Thread

[bh]

I am enjoying the conversation you two are having. HP you say that OASDI help the elderly and lowers the poverty rate for the elderly. I agree that the purpose is an hororable one and one that the ends I would consider good. My question is, at what cost is aceptable to achieve these ends? Surely we could even spend more and then even less people would be in poverty! right? There has be a better way. I think that about 21% of the federal budget is social security and 13% is medicare, correct? So roughly 1/3 of my federal tax dollars goes toward helping elderly. Is that worth it to you? How much is enough? I think that there should be some sort of backdrop to help people when they are unable to help themselves, but the amount we spend these days is just crazy, and don't even get me started on defense spending.

I also have the same questions a Guinness as to what they considered poverty back then? Was living with your family considered living in poverty? I think that it would be nicer to be cared for by family than to collect benifits and be able to afford living in a nursing home.

[Guinness]

I am enjoying the conversation you two are having. HP you say that OASDI help the elderly and lowers the poverty rate for the elderly. I agree that the purpose is an hororable one and one that the ends I would consider good. My question is, at what cost is aceptable to achieve these ends? Surely we could even spend more and then even less people would be in poverty! right? There has be a better way. I think that about 21% of the federal budget is social security and 13% is medicare, correct? So roughly 1/3 of my federal tax dollars goes toward helping elderly. Is that worth it to you? How much is enough? I think that there should be some sort of backdrop to help people when they are unable to help themselves, but the amount we spend these days is just crazy, and don't even get me started on defense spending.

I also have the same questions a Guinness as to what they considered poverty back then? Was living with your family considered living in poverty? I think that it would be nicer to be cared for by family than to collect benifits and be able to afford living in a nursing home.

I always enjoy discussing politics with Homer.

I agree with you and Homer indeed that the isolated intent to lower poverty among the elderly is honorable. Less relevant to me is the question of the practicality and efficacy of federal government social programs such as SDI (they are neither) than the morality of them. I've said in the past that I would oppose central control even if it brought about the just society it's advocates say it will on moral grounds.

If people are impoverished because someone or some entity has defrauded them, they should have recourse to damages through the legal system. "Society" shouldn't be made to pay for the criminal acts of others. But if people are poor because of their own doing, "society" shouldn't be forced to pay for their behavior, either. Helping the downtrodden is good and right. Forcing others to do so is not. http://fee.org/library/books/not-yours-to-give-2/

Edit to add: http://www.independent.org/blog/?p=3758

[doublem]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/28/cal ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This raises many questions.

[shafnutz05]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/28/cal ... index.html

This raises many questions.

I read this..........I was so angry I wanted to punch my wall. How are people so unbelievably cruel and sadistic? Imagine watching a 15 year old girl get gang raped, beaten, and assaulted, and laughing while you record it with your mobile phone. I hope these thugs (half of which I am going to wager a small amount of money are here illegally) get beaten to death in prison. I hope the bystanders get their karma...a car accident or their own death wouldn't be a bad start. These people are animals, that don't belong in human society. Exterminate them.

[shafnutz05]

I know I am fired up, but rape is one of those crimes that literally makes my blood boil. If I could personally hold the gun to the heads of those bastards and pull the trigger, I would sign up in a heartbeat. If I was her father, I would be in prison for murder.

[doublem]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/28/cal ... index.html

This raises many questions.

I read this..........I was so angry I wanted to punch my wall. How are people so unbelievably cruel and sadistic? Imagine watching a 15 year old girl get gang raped, beaten, and assaulted, and laughing while you record it with your mobile phone. I hope these thugs (half of which I am going to wager a small amount of money are here illegally) get beaten to death in prison. I hope the bystanders get their karma...a car accident or their own death wouldn't be a bad start. These people are animals, that don't belong in human society. Exterminate them.

Despite your rage, what makes you think that other people wouldn't do the same? This isn't the first time something like this has happened? Just look up physiological experiments and the Nazi's. Everyone wants to think of themselves as noble but our DNA has other ideas. This goes to our collectivists mentally. It's a hive mind.

Criminology and psychology experts say there could be a variety of reasons why the crime wasn't reported. Several pointed to a problematic social phenomenon known as the bystander effect. It's a theory that has played out in lynchings, college riots and white-collar crimes.

"If you are in a crowd and you look and see that everyone is doing nothing, then doing nothing becomes the norm

It's our programing. Monkey see, monkey do. I don't think all those people are terrible humans, just following the environment they were in. I think if you put anyone in a certain environment they could do anything.

[shafnutz05]

Despite your rage, what makes you think that other people wouldn't do the same? This isn't the first time something like this has happened? Just look up physiological experiments and the Nazi's. Everyone wants to think of themselves as noble but our DNA has other ideas. This goes to our collectivists mentally. It's a hive mind.

I know they would. We have become a society that does not care about each other. I am sure you have seen the videos of that guy that got hit by a car, he is lying in a street, and people are literally DRIVING AROUND HIM. It takes a good minute before anyone comes to his aid. Human beings have forgotten how to care for their fellow man...it's sad. Makes you want to go live on a deserted island with nothing but a TV tuned to sports channels.

[shafnutz05]

It's our programing. Monkey see, monkey do. I don't think all those people are terrible humans, just following the environment they were in. I think if you put anyone in a certain environment they could do anything.

Sorry, I don't buy this (to a certain extent). I guarantee you that some of these kids' parents completely suck, and should probably be thrown in prison themselves. But some of these kids were just born evil...there was some strand of DNA that was not where it was supposed to be, and there you have it.

[MWB]

It's our programing. Monkey see, monkey do. I don't think all those people are terrible humans, just following the environment they were in. I think if you put anyone in a certain environment they could do anything.

If you sit there and watch and/or participate in raping someone, then yes, you are a terrible person. I'm assuming that most, if not all, of the witnesses were also high school age. Obviously there will be much more of a "pack mentality" in that case. I would not be at all surprised if the participants were all from the same clique, if not even gang related. However, that doesn't excuse the behavior in any way. Somewhere along the line these people were not taught the difference between right and wrong.

[MWB]

Despite your rage, what makes you think that other people wouldn't do the same? This isn't the first time something like this has happened? Just look up physiological experiments and the Nazi's. Everyone wants to think of themselves as noble but our DNA has other ideas. This goes to our collectivists mentally. It's a hive mind.

I know they would. We have become a society that does not care about each other. I am sure you have seen the videos of that guy that got hit by a car, he is lying in a street, and people are literally DRIVING AROUND HIM. It takes a good minute before anyone comes to his aid. Human beings have forgotten how to care for their fellow man...it's sad. Makes you want to go live on a deserted island with nothing but a TV tuned to sports channels.

My guess is that a lot of those people that drove around him have seen plenty of youtube clips where someone is pulling a prank to get attention. I really don't think humans are any more or less callous now than in the past, there's just more evidence of callousness that gets exposed.

[doublem]

Sorry, I don't buy this (to a certain extent). I guarantee you that some of these kids' parents completely suck, and should probably be thrown in prison themselves. But some of these kids were just born evil...there was some strand of DNA that was not where it was supposed to be, and there you have it.

These are 20 random people coming from different families. Some of them did nothing which is different than taking part in it. I don't think you can blame parents for that. I don't think anyone is evil( or purely) born anything. If you look at other times something like this as happened they were just average people.

[MWB]

Sorry, I don't buy this (to a certain extent). I guarantee you that some of these kids' parents completely suck, and should probably be thrown in prison themselves. But some of these kids were just born evil...there was some strand of DNA that was not where it was supposed to be, and there you have it.

These are 20 random people coming from different families. Some of them did nothing which is different than taking part in it. I don't think you can blame parents for that. I don't think anyone is evil( or purely) born anything. If you look at other times something like this as happened they were just average people.

You don't think they were 20 kids from the school? That is my assumption, which obviously could be wrong. A parent's role is to raise the child and give him/her a basic structure of right and wrong. That's why so many people that are screwed up come from messed up families where they didn't get this.

[doublem]

It's our programing. Monkey see, monkey do. I don't think all those people are terrible humans, just following the environment they were in. I think if you put anyone in a certain environment they could do anything.

If you sit there and watch and/or participate in raping someone, then yes, you are a terrible person. I'm assuming that most, if not all, of the witnesses were also high school age. Obviously there will be much more of a "pack mentality" in that case. I would not be at all surprised if the participants were all from the same clique, if not even gang related. However, that doesn't excuse the behavior in any way. Somewhere along the line these people were not taught the difference between right and wrong.

I'm not trying to defend anyone's behavior, or say that it is not wrong. It's wrong either way IMO, but I just want to know why. People have always been the same more or less, are DNA hasn't really changed. If you look at the Kitty Genovese case, these were all law abiding citizens, just average people. I'm sure these kids are the same way, now I will say that there is a difference between taking part and doing nothing, but I still would say that if enough people were taking part, others would as well, even if they know the difference between "right and wrong", which in cases like this, I don't think it really matters, since it has to be with instincts.

[dagny]

Some of them did nothing which is different than taking part in it.

This, right here, disgusts me. There is no possible defense for those who "did nothing", either. They are equally COMPLICIT in the act. To invent excuses is akin to exoneration.

It's in my nature to stand up and do/say something when I see an injustice perpetrated. Yeah, I've gotten myself into some dangerous situations by not sitting back and burying my head in the sand. But, you know what? It's all been worth it. Sometimes I ask myself, "why am I always to one to stand up and fight back? why can't anyone else?".

All I know is, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't try to help when I see an injustice being committed. You shoulda seen me at a gas station at midnight, squeegee in hand, confronting a group of guys jumping ONE guy.

Obviously, I couldn't stop these guys, but I did scream at them, "One on One! You wanna fight, you do it one on one!". So, the other guys backed off. The two guys fighting took a couple more swings and they were done.

There were other people at this gas station. These cars pulled into the gas station and the guys just flew out of the cars at each other. There were plenty of other people around, including the people who worked there. Guys were being knocked into gas pumps! Nobody did anything, except for the lone girl with the squeegee in hand.

That's only one example of many. I've yanked my neighbor's husband off her in the front yard. It goes on. I can not stand by and do nothing.

My favorite quote:
Albert Einstein:

The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

[doublem]

Sorry, I don't buy this (to a certain extent). I guarantee you that some of these kids' parents completely suck, and should probably be thrown in prison themselves. But some of these kids were just born evil...there was some strand of DNA that was not where it was supposed to be, and there you have it.

These are 20 random people coming from different families. Some of them did nothing which is different than taking part in it. I don't think you can blame parents for that. I don't think anyone is evil( or purely) born anything. If you look at other times something like this as happened they were just average people.

You don't think they were 20 kids from the school? That is my assumption, which obviously could be wrong. A parent's role is to raise the child and give him/her a basic structure of right and wrong. That's why so many people that are screwed up come from messed up families where they didn't get this.

I'm guessing they are, but I still don't know. Here is a better link about the attackers age. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,570009,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; They were older, late teens, early 20s. It doesn't say anything about the bystanders school, which is what I'm taking about, not the rape by the older kids. You can look at how people react just at a sporting event, when the group puts pressure on others, they will act different, even if they know right or wrong, IMO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_behavior" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[doublem]

Some of them did nothing which is different than taking part in it.

This, right here, disgusts me. There is no possible defense for those who "did nothing", either. They are equally COMPLICIT in the act. To invent excuses is akin to exoneration.

It's in my nature to stand up and do/say something when I see an injustice perpetrated. Yeah, I've gotten myself into some dangerous situations by not sitting back and burying my head in the sand. But, you know what? It's all been worth it. Sometimes I ask myself, "why am I always to one to stand up and fight back? why can't anyone else?".

All I know is, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't try to help when I see an injustice being committed. You shoulda seen me at a gas station at midnight, squeegee in hand, confronting a group of guys jumping ONE guy.

Obviously, I couldn't stop these guys, but I did scream at them, "One on One! You wanna fight, you do it one on one!". So, the other guys backed off. The two guys fighting took a couple more swings and they were done.

There were other people at this gas station. These cars pulled into the gas station and the guys just flew out of the cars at each other. There were plenty of other people around, including the people who worked there. Guys were being knocked into gas pumps! Nobody did anything, except for the lone girl with the squeegee in hand.

That's only one example of many. I've yanked my neighbor's husband off her in the front yard. It goes on. I can not stand by and do nothing.

My favorite quote:
Albert Einstein:

The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.

Yea, and that is why I said they are still wrong. So, all the people in Nazi Germany that did nothing are equally responsible for the Holocaust as the people that were working at the camps? It's nice to think that everyone would stand up for injustice, but I'm not counting on it. Most people aren't heroes. If you want to say they were wrong okay, I agree, but taking a life yourself in cold blood is different. It's not against the law to do nothing, it might be immoral, but not a crime.Anyways, I'm not debating if its right or wrong just how people think, or don't when they are involved in a group.

[Sarcastic]

I see you guys are talking about this. I just made a separate thread, then deleted it. Haven't looked in here in a couple of days.

What I wanted to ask is if you believe in the death penalty in such cases. I think I do. I think some people are so cruel, they have no place in the society. I would round them all up and hang them. In public. I'd put it on TV, if it helped dissuade others.

[Guinness]

I see you guys are talking about this. I just made a separate thread, then deleted it. Haven't looked in here in a couple of days.

What I wanted to ask is if you believe in the death penalty in such cases. I think I do. I think some people are so cruel, they have no place in the society. I would round them all up and hang them. In public. I'd put it on TV, if it helped dissuade others.

I'm opposed to the death penalty. I realize this is an emotional and personal issue for some folks. Who knows what I'd feel, believe, or think if a death penalty case involved me in some way.

[shafnutz05]

Yea, and that is why I said they are still wrong. So, all the people in Nazi Germany that did nothing are equally responsible for the Holocaust as the people that were working at the camps? It's nice to think that everyone would stand up for injustice, but I'm not counting on it. Most people aren't heroes.

Oh come on now....no one is expecting the 20 or so kids to stop the Holocaust...that is completely disproportionate. We are talking about 20 people stopping four subhuman thugs from raping an innocent girl. If that would have been me there, I would have had my concealed Beretta out and started pistolwhipping the scum (at the very least...why not fire a shot or two for good measure?). For a group of 20 people to help an innocent girl, it doesn't take "bravery". It takes humanity.

The people in Germany were up against millions of Nazis, and the risk of being thrown in concentration camps and being tortured to death. The 20 dirtbags that were laughing/recording the rape faced little or no risk...they are equally guilty for this crime. IMO, they should face the same punishment.

I can't wait till the thugs get put into the general population...they will find out what rape is REALLY about.

PS -- I got my conceal/carry permit while I was in the military...don't worry, I am not running around firing it in the air Afghan style

[eddysnake]

I've been listening to Dr. Aaron Carroll talk about health care lately on Sirius, and he seems to be pretty knowledgable about the whole subject. I found this article by him in the Huffington Post, appropriately it's titled "Meet the New Health Care Reform, Same as the Old Health Care Reform" Thought it was a good read, check it out

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-e-c ... 34847.html

President Obama said, in his address to Congress, that he was determined to be the last president to deal with health care reform. That’s not going to happen. He should have read his history.

We need comprehensive reform. This plan will pass; it won’t be enough. President Obama will not be the last President to deal with this problem.

We keep doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. What does that signify?

[RxBandit66]

Despite your rage, what makes you think that other people wouldn't do the same? This isn't the first time something like this has happened? Just look up physiological experiments and the Nazi's. Everyone wants to think of themselves as noble but our DNA has other ideas. This goes to our collectivists mentally. It's a hive mind.

I know they would. We have become a society that does not care about each other. I am sure you have seen the videos of that guy that got hit by a car, he is lying in a street, and people are literally DRIVING AROUND HIM. It takes a good minute before anyone comes to his aid. Human beings have forgotten how to care for their fellow man...it's sad. Makes you want to go live on a deserted island with nothing but a TV tuned to sports channels.

I'd have to say I agree. My Grandfather just passed away last week. He a disabled WW2 veteran who became blind at the age of 44. He only went on to become a plumber who went bowling in his spare time, and learned to weave beautiful rugs by hand and sold them to feed his wife and kids. I watched him lay a foundation for a gazebo when he was 70 years old. And blind, as I mentioned.

It seems like as the generations have progressed, the meaning of patriotism and sacrifice has lost something. Some years ago, people would not take a free handout, even if they were sick and dying. Nowadays, people who are perfectly capable of working stay home and leech off of anythng/anyone they can. 20 years ago, when I was in grade school, we still got paddled when we were out of line. Now, there is no consequence for anything a student does. The parents just call their lawyer. Makes me sick.

[shafnutz05]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... 8rXQejqhbU

1,990 pages.....almost a trillion dollars (and I am sure the projection will be much lower than the actual cost)......new surtaxes on the wealthy, medical device makers, insurers....forcing employers to provide insurance for their employees.......my God.

Almost 2,000 pages....remarkable.

On a side note, I saw that Pelosi had a "witty" (at least by her standards) comeback to someone that conveniently had a bullhorn at her rally and shouted "Nazi Pelosi!". I would not put it past the Dems to have planted this protester, and planned Nancy's canned response.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthru ... eople.html

[doublem]

Yea, and that is why I said they are still wrong. So, all the people in Nazi Germany that did nothing are equally responsible for the Holocaust as the people that were working at the camps? It's nice to think that everyone would stand up for injustice, but I'm not counting on it. Most people aren't heroes.

Oh come on now....no one is expecting the 20 or so kids to stop the Holocaust...that is completely disproportionate. We are talking about 20 people stopping four subhuman thugs from raping an innocent girl. If that would have been me there, I would have had my concealed Beretta out and started pistolwhipping the scum (at the very least...why not fire a shot or two for good measure?). For a group of 20 people to help an innocent girl, it doesn't take "bravery". It takes humanity.

The people in Germany were up against millions of Nazis, and the risk of being thrown in concentration camps and being tortured to death. The 20 dirtbags that were laughing/recording the rape faced little or no risk...they are equally guilty for this crime. IMO, they should face the same punishment.

I can't wait till the thugs get put into the general population...they will find out what rape is REALLY about.

PS -- I got my conceal/carry permit while I was in the military...don't worry, I am not running around firing it in the air Afghan style

Different topic.

[shafnutz05]

Different topic.

Interesting....how did I manage to do that?

[doublem]

Different topic.

Interesting....how did I manage to do that?

I was responding to dangy who said it is disgusting to say doing nothing and raping someone was different, not that these kids could or should have stopped the Holocaust.