LGP Political Discussion Thread

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pittsoccer33
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by pittsoccer33 »

stopper40 wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:
Geezer wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/10 ... ity-rules/
Is this a power grab by the FCC? Should they be regulating the internet? I don't know enough about what they're doing versus what the FCC is claiming to decide if this has a good side to it. Usually when in doubt I oppose government involvement. Can anyone shed some light on what the pros and cons are?
Its from Fox News. Its opinion, not fact. :pop:
How so? They don't give an opinion on way or another on the article? Just what the proposal is about
yea, last week the white house added fox news to it's enemies list. I usually don't like Glenn Beck's tv show but he's really been playing it up well.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by HomerPenguin »

GaryRissling wrote:Really?! So cap and trade must then be rooted in sound scientific data? Or deficit spending on stimulus projects is likely to lead to sustained economic recovery
Certainly there are arguments to be made on both sides, no?
Or TARP was the salvation of non-wall street jobs?
No, but TARP was a Republican program, so, you know, not relevant.
Or money for GE to create green energy jobs won't just be more government-subsidized jobs, rather than profitable, private sector jobs? Or government run healthcare program will be the first government program in history to meet budgetary projections? Or low-interest rates don't lead to the under-capitalization of our banks and our nation? Or higher minimum wages don't lead to more unemployment or outsourcing? Or industrial unions don't lead to more unemployment or outsourcing? Or deliberating for months on Afghanistan policy is merely being prudent rather than reckless with American lives? Or Kanye West is a ******* (OK, so he may have gotten one fact right)?
Yes, sadly, the thing is, disagreeing with you on a debatable issue of policy is not the same thing as lying. The Democrats lie. Everybody lies. But most people who aren't elected Republicans and their friends in the opinion media occasionally mix in a little truth.

What universe do the Dems live in exactly?[/quote]

I don't really care about the Democratic Party, but as for myself I live in a world where:

Saddam Hussein wasn't behind 9/11
The War in Iraq didn't end on May 1, 2003
Torture is unconstitutional, not patriotic
Government spying on American citizens is unconstitutional, not patriotic
The current president was not born in Kenya
There is nothing in any of the health care bills that will send the FBI out to kill my grandma

The opposite of those statements are all massive and bald-faced lies that the GOP has tried to sell just in the past seven or eight years. And that's by no means an exhaustive list.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by doublem »

Wait, is this what people are upset about? This kind of capping? LOL Really?

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/ ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Corporate critics chimed in, too. One person "close to" the board of directors at AIG -- the insurance behemoth for which the federal government has made available $182 billion in tax money -- told the New York Times the pay cuts were simply unacceptable. Some executives there will face annual salaries of $177,799 or -- gasp! -- a mere $125,000, under the new rules. "That's insulting," this person, whoever it was, said about the money that's mostly only available because the taxpayers bailed out the firm in the first place.
That's not to say they might not have deserved some vindictiveness. All seven of the bailed-out companies originally sought to pay their executives more than Feinberg was willing to approve, he said. Feinberg's decision, though, is essentially final; they can appeal the compensation structure he put in place instead of what they proposed, but the appeal is heard by Feinberg. Still, only one company had the nerve to insist on paying bonuses set up under the old pay system: AIG, which said it should honor contracts that will pay out millions to traders. Since the contracts were valid, Feinberg said, he agreed to let them.
Why would middle class people defend this? It makes no sense to me why a -middle class person could defend this, when we are the ones paying for it.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by doublem »

shafnutz05 wrote:http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing- ... talk-radio

This is getting downright pathetic. For the last two weeks, Obama and his advisors have literally been obsessing over FOX News. The way Obama is picking petty, ridiculous fights with news outlets and radio personalities he doesn't like is about as far from presidential as you could possibly get. We have rising unemployment, a stimulus that is not working, Iran getting more aggressive, the Afghan War question, a failing education system, and sluggish economy, and the President of the United States' top priority at the moment is to discredit the Fox News Channel.

What friggin planet am I living on? Is Obama that thin-skinned that he can't handle outlets/people that dare to criticize him? For seven years, Bush was crucified repeatedly by almost the entire media, among with a large portion of the US population. How many times did you see him pissing and moaning because "wahhhh CNN and MSNBC are so mean to me...it's not fair they are biased!!!"?? NEVER. It's like we just elected a spoiled 2nd grader. I don't deny for a second that FOX leans to the right....but for God's sake Mr. President, you have the entire rest of the media behind you. GROW UP AND BE THE PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!

Remember when everyone compared Bush to Nixon repeatedly? I wonder what they have to say now.

/rant

Why would any reasonable person that differs from Fox's propaganda go on that network?What issues could they really bring up? Obama was on Bill O's show last year or so ago. He went on. Fox shouldn't even be considered a news station. I wish they would just say they were an arm of "conservative- Republican values" crowd instead of this fair and balanced, man of the people crap.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

doublem wrote:Why would any reasonable person that differs from Fox's propaganda go on that network?What issues could they really bring up? Obama was on Bill O's show last year or so ago. He went on. Fox shouldn't even be considered a news station. I wish they would just say they were an arm of "conservative- Republican values" crowd instead of this fair and balanced, man of the people crap.
Here is the problem I have...everyone whines because FOX has conservative-leaning shows. You have to differentiate between the almost universally conservative OPINION shows on FOX (like Hannity, O'Reilly, Beck, etc), and the NEWS shows they have on there. When you watch the strict news shows (like Shepard Smith, etc), they report on the news.

I find it laughable when people call FOX News nothing more than a Republican propaganda channel. During the 2008 election cycle, there was a study done regarding the ratio of positive to negative stories on McCain and Obama. FOX NEWS WAS THE ONLY CABLE NEWS CHANNEL TO HAVE AN AN EQUAL RATIO OF POSITIVE TO NEGATIVE FOR BOTH CANDIDATES. CNN and MSNBC were overwhelmingly more negative about McCain then they were about Obama. I don't understand people that have the nerve to dismiss FOX News as nothing more than right-wing propaganda, when the president has been worshiped in every other media outlet in the country. As of right now, FOX News and talk radio are the only news outlets people that are not rabid Obama-supporters have to turn to for news.

And you didn't even address my main point. It is wildly unpresidential, petty, immature, and embarrassing for the President of the United States to be picking schoolyard fights with news outlets he does not like. I don't care if they report negative stories about him from time to time...the active effort the White House/its associates are making to discredit and marginalize a major news outlet (whether you like it or not) should be chilling to anyone in this country that believes in the first amendment. Isn't it funny that the so-called "liberals" that allege to believe in freedom of this and freedom of that are the same ones who would be the first to force the shutdown of an independent media outlet?

At any rate, the irrational hatred and panic over FOX News is hilarious. You people have eighteen other channels you can watch, not to mention almost every major newspaper in the country. If you are truly naive enough to believe that CNN/MSNBC/CBS/NBC/ABC/NYT are independent, reliable sources of unbiased information, then you are simply impossible to use rationality with.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

HomerPenguin wrote:The Democrats lie. Everybody lies. But most people who aren't elected Republicans and their friends in the opinion media occasionally mix in a little truth.
The sweeping generalizations you make are ridiculous. So with this statement, you are implying that all elected Republicans and their friends are raving liars that spread distruths and lies about everything and anything? Come on man...I am about as conservative as it gets, and I acknowledge that there are a lot of Democrats out there that are solid, good people (albeit misguided). For you to dismiss the entire "other party" as liars makes you sound just as irrational as the people you criticize in your next breath.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

HomerPenguin wrote:Saddam Hussein wasn't behind 9/11
The War in Iraq didn't end on May 1, 2003
Torture is unconstitutional, not patriotic
Government spying on American citizens is unconstitutional, not patriotic
The current president was not born in Kenya
There is nothing in any of the health care bills that will send the FBI out to kill my grandma
Taking things to ultimate extremes once again....

1) I know Saddam wasn't behind 9/11.....if you remember correctly, most Democrats voted for the War in Iraq. Was that just because the mean ol' Republicans tricked them?

2) I am aware the War in Iraq did not end on that day, that was a gigantic error by the president.

3) Torture is not "patriotic", whatever that is supposed to mean. Unfortunately, there are fanatics out there that are so wildly devoted to their cause (and the destruction of the United States) that the only way we can get vital information out of them is through enhanced, supervised interrogation. Where is the liberal outrage when American contractors are having their heads sliced off with a dull, rusty knife while 10 hooded thugs praise Allah?

4) Do you really think the NSA cares about your conversations with friends, etc? They have a computer that is programmed to pick up a combination of "trigger" words....until these "trigger" words are all said in a conversation, the surveillance is passive. What is wrong with this? Last I checked, when I talk to my Mom I don't use the words "bomb", "attack", "Allah", "infidel", etc. Of course, Obama's White House was actively telling people to email them directly to report people that were spreading "lies" about the president. Turning in your neighbors to the authorities for dissent? That's nice.

5) We know the president was not born in Kenya...that would be like me saying the entire Democratic Party believes that Bush deliberately had soldiers killed and remote controlled the planes that destroyed the WTC so he and his cronies could cash in....well actually, I guess the "entire Democratic party" may not be far from the truth.

6) When did I ever say the "FBI is coming to kill Grandma"? That's asinine. Whenever you have a vastly increased demand for something, with the supply remaining constant or falling, rationing MUST OCCUR. Any one over the age of 13 with a slight understanding of economics gets that. Obama HIMSELF has stated in interviews that it just wouldn't be practical or cost-effective to provide excessive healthcare for seniors that have major illnesses. Those are HIS words.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

I think it's pretty funny how bunched up Obama's panties are about "opinion broadcasts", yet the only "opinions" that concern them are those that don't support their policies. No mention of Ed Schultz, who is the most ridiculous of MSNBC's cast of loonies, and the others - Keith Olbermann (who admirably opposed the administration's move against Fox) and Rachel Maddow.

More importantly, I would hope that, after 8 years of Bush and a year of Obama, people would start to learn that it really doesn't matter which party holds power in Washington, but the problem is the power - particularly executive power - itself. We've been witnessing the development of the imperial presidency, and anyone who thinks that things will improve if we can just get a different letter in the office are sadly mistaken, I'm afraid.

It makes me long for the innocent and innocuous days of the Horny Blues Executive and his predecessor, the Amazing Barfing President. ;)
Last edited by Guinness on Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

Hope you don't mind if I jump in here, but some of these things irk me as much as they do Homer, so...
shafnutz05 wrote:
Taking things to ultimate extremes once again....

1) I know Saddam wasn't behind 9/11.....if you remember correctly, most Democrats voted for the War in Iraq. Was that just because the mean ol' Republicans tricked them?
But that was one of the Bush Administration's big selling points... so they really own it.
2) I am aware the War in Iraq did not end on that day, that was a gigantic error by the president.
Yeah, everyone's pretty aware of it at this point, huh? It was more than "gigantic", it was "gratuitous".
3) Torture is not "patriotic", whatever that is supposed to mean. Unfortunately, there are fanatics out there that are so wildly devoted to their cause (and the destruction of the United States) that the only way we can get vital information out of them is through enhanced, supervised interrogation. Where is the liberal outrage when American contractors are having their heads sliced off with a dull, rusty knife while 10 hooded thugs praise Allah?
What does one have to do with the other? Does torture prevent beheadings? Does it even prevent terrorism? More to the point, what powers are we UNwilling to give the executive at this point? I refer you to Benjamin Franklin on this topic...
4) Do you really think the NSA cares about your conversations with friends, etc? They have a computer that is programmed to pick up a combination of "trigger" words....until these "trigger" words are all said in a conversation, the surveillance is passive. What is wrong with this? Last I checked, when I talk to my Mom I don't use the words "bomb", "attack", "Allah", "infidel", etc. Of course, Obama's White House was actively telling people to email them directly to report people that were spreading "lies" about the president. Turning in your neighbors to the authorities for dissent? That's nice.
I don't want to be confrontational, but the only word I can think of to describe this is shameful... Sorry. Why is it okay for one president to order spying but not okay for the next? This is Pandora's Box here. You simply do not give government this much power. It will not give it back, and it will find new and exciting ways to use it against more than just "the terrorists". Just wait until someone else comes along and re-defines what is "bad". Just wait until they start using this on the "war on drugs". Just wait until they start using this against "domestic terrorists".
5) We know the president was not born in Kenya...that would be like me saying the entire Democratic Party believes that Bush deliberately had soldiers killed and remote controlled the planes that destroyed the WTC so he and his cronies could cash in....well actually, I guess the "entire Democratic party" may not be far from the truth.
Agreed.
6) When did I ever say the "FBI is coming to kill Grandma"? That's asinine. Whenever you have a vastly increased demand for something, with the supply remaining constant or falling, rationing MUST OCCUR. Any one over the age of 13 with a slight understanding of economics gets that. Obama HIMSELF has stated in interviews that it just wouldn't be practical or cost-effective to provide excessive healthcare for seniors that have major illnesses. Those are HIS words.
I don't have time now, but there's video out there of Robert Reich (ironic, I know) extolling the virtues of letting grandma die. So while FBI might not be coming to kill grandma, they sure aren't sending the ambulance for her, either.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by SoupOrSam »

We're blinded by the simple fact that every 4-8 years we forgive & forget just how both major parties suck and blow hard.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

Well said Guinness, and quite frankly, I agree with you in some ways. It's such a tricky, dangerous situation. Most people believe there are probably sleeper cells here in the United States that are plotting something, we just don't know yet. After all, we see the arrests from time to time (including one in Boston the other day). There has to be some way to track them, but how do you do that within the bounds of the Constitution? It's tough...isn't it?

I completely understand the slippery slope argument vis-a-vis enhanced interrogation as well. If you present me with a "ticking time bomb" scenario, then I will say do what you have to do to get the information. But just like anything else, how far can you take those powers?

It's a shame we can't all just put our heads in the sand, isn't it? :wink:
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by pittsoccer33 »

Guinness wrote:Hope
4) Do you really think the NSA cares about your conversations with friends, etc? They have a computer that is programmed to pick up a combination of "trigger" words....until these "trigger" words are all said in a conversation, the surveillance is passive. What is wrong with this? Last I checked, when I talk to my Mom I don't use the words "bomb", "attack", "Allah", "infidel", etc. Of course, Obama's White House was actively telling people to email them directly to report people that were spreading "lies" about the president. Turning in your neighbors to the authorities for dissent? That's nice.
I don't want to be confrontational, but the only word I can think of to describe this is shameful... Sorry. Why is it okay for one president to order spying but not okay for the next? This is Pandora's Box here. You simply do not give government this much power. It will not give it back, and it will find new and exciting ways to use it against more than just "the terrorists". Just wait until someone else comes along and re-defines what is "bad". Just wait until they start using this on the "war on drugs". Just wait until they start using this against "domestic terrorists".
Privacy is dead, period. I can be tracked to within a block by my cell phone. My car can be monitored and the speed I travel over any strech of highway can be determined. I walk past hundreds, if not thousands of cameras every day that could be recording what I say and streaming me onto the internet. Every web search I do is cataloged. Most of my purchases can be traced to time and place. Newborn babies have their DNA cataloged by the government.

It's not changing back either.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

That's an interesting point....our right to privacy has pretty much been completely eliminated in this modern world of crazy technology.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by doublem »

Here is the problem I have...everyone whines because FOX has conservative-leaning shows. You have to differentiate between the almost universally conservative OPINION shows on FOX (like Hannity, O'Reilly, Beck, etc), and the NEWS shows they have on there. When you watch the strict news shows (like Shepard Smith, etc), they report on the news.
Okay, you named one. Anymore?
I find it laughable when people call FOX News nothing more than a Republican propaganda channel. During the 2008 election cycle, there was a study done regarding the ratio of positive to negative stories on McCain and Obama. FOX NEWS WAS THE ONLY CABLE NEWS CHANNEL TO HAVE AN AN EQUAL RATIO OF POSITIVE TO NEGATIVE FOR BOTH CANDIDATES. CNN and MSNBC were overwhelmingly more negative about McCain then they were about Obama. I don't understand people that have the nerve to dismiss FOX News as nothing more than right-wing propaganda, when the president has been worshiped in every other media outlet in the country. As of right now, FOX News and talk radio are the only news outlets people that are not rabid Obama-supporters have to turn to for news.
Yea, and there was a study done that said that people get information from fox have different "facts" then people that don't, and tend to believe more in death panels, etc and stuff like that. Lets tell the difference between criticism. There is a difference between someone saying OMG OBMAMA IS A SOCIALISTS and someone that has real criticism. I don't hear a lot of real criticism coming these people. Can we stick to Fox instead of playing the, well they do it game?
And you didn't even address my main point. It is wildly unpresidential, petty, immature, and embarrassing for the President of the United States to be picking schoolyard fights with news outlets he does not like. I don't care if they report negative stories about him from time to time...the active effort the White House/its associates are making to discredit and marginalize a major news outlet (whether you like it or not) should be chilling to anyone in this country that believes in the first amendment. Isn't it funny that the so-called "liberals" that allege to believe in freedom of this and freedom of that are the same ones who would be the first to force the shutdown of an independent media outlet?


No, I don't think it is immature. I hope everyone goes on the attack of Fox News. Start pushing them around and see how they like it. I wish the liberals had some muscle like the conservatives. What does any of this have to do with the first amendment? Do you feel the same way when conservatives just make things up out of thin air? Lying about something has to be against something? You really think Obama is trying to shut down Fox, and if you do, you think that is possible?
At any rate, the irrational hatred and panic over FOX News is hilarious. You people have eighteen other channels you can watch, not to mention almost every major newspaper in the country. If you are truly naive enough to believe that CNN/MSNBC/CBS/NBC/ABC/NYT are independent, reliable sources of unbiased information, then you are simply impossible to use rationality with.
I don't watch fox. I wish all news would try this thing called being objective. It would be weird for once.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

No, I don't think it is immature. I hope everyone goes on the attack of Fox News. Start pushing them around and see how they like it. I wish the liberals had some muscle like the conservatives. What does any of this have to do with the first amendment? Do you feel the same way when conservatives just make things up out of thin air? Lying about something has to be against something? You really think Obama is trying to shut down Fox, and if you do, you think that is possible?
You irrationally hate FOX News because they report news that does not agree with your worldview. Fair enough. It is pretty scary to me that you actually condone the executive branch of government waging a full-out war on an independent media outlet. Of course, I have a feeling if Bush would have done this with the New York Times or MSNBC, you would be on here calling him a Hitler-like fascist.

And do a little research on the fairness doctrine. Liberals understand full-well that FOX and talk radio are the only two sources of media that they do NOT control, and the sole purpose of that bill is to eliminate that problem. They are already trying to take control of the Internet as we speak with their "net neutrality" crap. But I do think it is hilarious how worked up people get about FOX News, yet don't find any issues with MSNBC. Get over it....there is a news station that is very popular that reports from a more conservative point of view, and it's not going anywhere. And if you support legislation/actions designed to muzzle independent media outlets, don't ever talk to me again about your righteous defense of the first amendment (a la G20)
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by stopper40 »

PensFanInDC wrote:
stopper40 wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:
Its from Fox News. Its opinion, not fact. :pop:
How so? They don't give an opinion on way or another on the article? Just what the proposal is about
:pop: = sarcasm
:face: Sorry my stupidity. Thought this was the sarcasm one, :roll: .
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

stopper40 wrote::face: Sorry my stupidity. Thought this was the sarcasm one, :roll: .
lol...the popcorn is the "subtle sarcasm" one :D

On a side note, the way liberals were acting, you would think that they didn't control both houses of Congress and the White House. I mean for crying out loud...you guys have the legislature, executive, most of the mainstream media, Hollywood, academia, and the United Nations. Can't we please just keep FOX and talk radio guys?? Please?!
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/28638.html

Good article talking about a lot of the Democrats that are appalled at the way the White House is acting. Let's not forget Obama's stealth attacks on the Chamber of Commerce, due to their opposition to his cap and trade legislaton.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by bh »

Guinness wrote:It makes me long for the innocent and innocuous days of the Horny Blues Executive and his predecessor, the Amazing Barfing President. ;)
Amazing Barfing President!? :scared: Must have missed that one. :? Bush Senior?
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

lol bh Bush Sr. puking on the Japanese prime minister? Good times
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

bh wrote:
Guinness wrote:It makes me long for the innocent and innocuous days of the Horny Blues Executive and his predecessor, the Amazing Barfing President. ;)
Amazing Barfing President!? :scared: Must have missed that one. :? Bush Senior?
Yep, that's the one. Maybe it's just the stratospheric abuses of these two presidents, but it seems like the worst abuses of the two before them were of matters of taste and manners. :)
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

doublem wrote: No, I don't think it is immature. I hope everyone goes on the attack of Fox News. Start pushing them around and see how they like it. I wish the liberals had some muscle like the conservatives. What does any of this have to do with the first amendment? Do you feel the same way when conservatives just make things up out of thin air? Lying about something has to be against something? You really think Obama is trying to shut down Fox, and if you do, you think that is possible.
Liberals have plenty of nugs, and they swing them around plenty throughout the media. I'm not defending Fox here, but it's kind of disingenuous to say that it's only the conservative voices that make any noise.

And Obama isn't trying to shut "down" Fox, they're trying to shut "out" Fox. The idea is to de-legitimize the channel, and thereby de-legitimize what is heard there. It's also a none-too-subtle message to the rest of media to toe the line, don't you think? No mention of MSNBC's "opinions"... wonder why? Even Scarborough essentially sticks to the establishment narrative. And seriously, someone should hit that "Ed" guy with a tree trunk. What a garbanzo that guy is...

Edit to add: ...just wanted to be clear that I'm not defending Fox, per se, but pointing out that the White House's stand here is pretty ridiculous.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

pittsoccer33 wrote: Privacy is dead, period. I can be tracked to within a block by my cell phone. My car can be monitored and the speed I travel over any strech of highway can be determined. I walk past hundreds, if not thousands of cameras every day that could be recording what I say and streaming me onto the internet. Every web search I do is cataloged. Most of my purchases can be traced to time and place. Newborn babies have their DNA cataloged by the government.

It's not changing back either.
Welcome to Oceania, I guess.

I guess I'm just not ready to give up and declare the Republic dead, and unrevivable... at least not yet.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

SoupOrSam wrote:We're blinded by the simple fact that every 4-8 years we forgive & forget just how both major parties suck and blow hard.
Amen! :lol: @ suck and blow. :)
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Guinness »

shafnutz05 wrote:Well said Guinness, and quite frankly, I agree with you in some ways. It's such a tricky, dangerous situation. Most people believe there are probably sleeper cells here in the United States that are plotting something, we just don't know yet. After all, we see the arrests from time to time (including one in Boston the other day). There has to be some way to track them, but how do you do that within the bounds of the Constitution? It's tough...isn't it?
There is no reason on earth that a warrant cannot be obtained to track terrorists - they're regularly issued after-the-fact (I'm not condoning the practice). I've posted links to Andrew Napolitano's views on this topic numerous times, so I'm not going to do it again, but I suggest taking another gander, shafnutz. Obtaining a warrant is a check (admittedly by another branch of it, but at least a check at all) on the state's power to invade your life. You are not a criminal at the time of an investigation. You are not a criminal at the time of your trial. You are not a criminal until you are proven as such and your rights are therefore not to be set aside under whatever circumstances the state deems.
I completely understand the slippery slope argument vis-a-vis enhanced interrogation as well. If you present me with a "ticking time bomb" scenario, then I will say do what you have to do to get the information. But just like anything else, how far can you take those powers?
Well, this ticking time bomb scenario has always seemed to me to be a bit fanciful, and the stuff of Hollywood, frankly.
It's a shame we can't all just put our heads in the sand, isn't it? :wink:
Aye. I had fewer gray hairs on my head when it was in the sand. :)