LGP Political Discussion Thread

[Tico Rick]

Really?

I understand that its unfortunate that if the democratic party runs an african-american candidate the african american community will probably vote for that candidate no matter what....but thats not equally as bad as hating obama based on race...

racism runs both ways and all...but i completely disagree with your statement which just sort of shrugs off the overlying racist elements that have existed in this country since its inception.

If you REALLY want to stir the pot....let's talk about the fact that Barack Obama and his family attended a church that preaches hard-edge, black liberation theology for 1 1/2 decades. Everyone always scoffs and laughs when Jeremiah Wright is brought up. But is it not a valid point? You can not attend a church like that for 15-20 years without believing in what the guy is preaching. I don't care what Obama said during the election cycle and how he distanced himself conveniently from Wright. The guy was his self-described mentor for years. So if you really want to talk about racism, why don't we bring our president himself into it?

1. How do you define "black liberation theology"?

2. Have you read Obama's "Dreams of My Father"? Written years before the Rev. Wright controversy, it shows why Obama found Wright's church appealing, and it had nothing to do with being anti-white.

Oh, and let's not forget about the time that he referred to his white grandmother as a "typical white person". Just imagine if a white president had a black grandfather and referred to him as a "typical black person"? Obama has said and done certain things that certainly make you wonder about how he feels about white people. I am JUST trying to open up this argument to go both ways.

1. Can you provide a source for your quote?

2. Again, have you read "Dreams of My Father"? The book provides lots of examples of how Obama feels about various black people and various white people. I didn't find any racist attitudes expressed in the book. I did find, however, a person who understands both white and black views toward race, something which is pretty unusual in our country.

[shafnutz05]

The answer to your question Troy? We don't know. Sure, blacks identify with Obama because he shares their race. But how do we know they aren't resentful of middle to upper class white folks? And that voting for Obama, they knew they were going to get a candidate that would "share the wealth"? I am NOT saying this is the case....I am just saying, we cannot read everyone's psyche. We will never know the reasons people voted for someone, unless everyone fills out a survey.

[PensFanInDC]

I disagree. Voting for or against someone just because of their color is wrong. Basically people didnt vote for McCain because he is white.

how do you know that?

i think we're making some ridiculous assumptions here....lets just be honest and clear about several points.

1. Lots of black people voted for obama because he is black.
2. Lots of white peope probably appalled by the thought of having a black president.

Do you really want to say that these are one in the same?

Yes I do.

Vote for the candidate you like based on views and policies. Not based on color in any way, shape or form. That is when we will truly be a race issue free.

[Tico Rick]

I would add that the people who are pro-Obama simply because of his race are a minority of the total population, while the number of people who are anti-Obama simply because of his race could very well be far greater. It's disingenuous to say that racism runs both ways, while ignoring the implications of this racism in terms of sheer numbers.

And I would WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree with this, and this is an ignorant statement to make. I have a question...how many members of the black population did you see wearing John Kerry shirts in 2004? Or Al Gore shirts in 2000? I work just outside of Philadelphia, and most of the people I work with are black. In the six months leading up to the election, it was a virtual daily worship of the guy. I asked a lot of people why they liked him, and they said "because he represents US". Now what do you think that means? To suggest that a majority of blacks did not vote for Obama because he shared their racial background, while saying that "far greater" whites dislike Obama because he is black, is a preposterous statement.

I don't think you understood my original post, as I did not suggest that a majority of blacks did not vote for Obama because of race. In fact, even if 90% of blacks voted for Obama because of his race, if one assumes that the percentage of racists in the black population and the white population is pretty much equal, then white racists are going to far outnumber black racists, simply because there are a lot more whites in the US than blacks. Supporting and inflaming this racism, as some of the Tea Party supporters are doing, is not for the good of the country and should be called out, both by Republicans and Democrats.

[doublem]

Dude, so what? He is part white and part black. He can say whatever he wants about his grandma. I say things about white people all the time, and I'm white, does that mean I'm racist? Do you really think Obama has something against his mom? It makes zero sense to think that he has something against whitey because he would have to say that about himself.

Malcolm X was 1/4 white too...Actually, my great-great-grandfather (really) is black. Should I be allowed to make racist jokes about blacks now because it's in my heritage? And what about the black liberation theology, which is essentially racist in itself? You didn't address that.

Malcolm X got over a lot of his racist past towards the end of his life. He should be a great example to people. It's all about context, racist shouldn't make jokes about black people. The n-word is just a word, it just depends on how you say it and use it. We need to get past stuff like this, we need to break the taboo about these words, so we can get on with other issue. I get tired of hearing about who can't and who can use words.

If someone gets some empowerment in black philosophy, whatever, I think it is stupid just like I think all race issues are silly becasue NO ONE picks the race they are, so why would you have pride in it? It's luck and chance, stuff like this is holding us back as a species. Everyone running around calling each other racist, and if someone is racist they will never admit it, so really it's pointless.

[Geezer]

Why have they continued to stay in power?

Because, we the people, haven't stood up and done anything to change it. It is our job. Do not expect the people in power, who covet their power, to make the changes.

People complain about who is and has been in power. You know the saying, if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem?

What are people doing to change it? What are you going to do to change it? Or are you going to just continue to complain about it, while doing nothing?

I, for one, am going into Constitutional Law, so that I may try to inject some ethics into the legal system, be educated enough to have the ammunition to argue for change, and to fight from within.

Great. Do you know the amount of work it would take to change this system? If it is even possible? The system is so full of crap it would have to take some type of major earth changing event to get people to think differently. It would take a large scale movement and in this atomized country, I don't think you can get it to last more then two weeks.

First, you think that people in this country want things to change, and have a idea on how to do that. I'm not so sure about that. I'm an idealist at heart, deep down I wish for change, but I'm also a realist, and I know it will never happen here. I don't want to be involved with any system, or any group. I understand why rich people don't care about anything besides profit, but I don't understand why hard working middle class people do? I largely feel abandoned by this country and culture, so for now I will watch it all unfold, and observe.

Do you know how many times I've been told that?

It's too big to change. One person can't do anything. It'll never happen in your lifetime.

I realize the gargantuan task ahead. I realize it probably won't happen in my lifetime. But, if our founding fathers had listened to this stuff, if MLK Jr. had listened, etc. we wouldn't have what these men started.

If I can even start something, that others who believe in the founding principles of this country will carry on, then I have done all I can. But, I would be remiss to sit here and complain, but not try to actively DO something.

Actually I think the health care debate and the interst generated has been a very healthy thing for our country. It at least has people thinking and actively arguing their viewpoint much more than usual. That's good since this is the biggest program being considered since social security 70 some years ago. I am usually pessimistic regarding our federal government but when push comes to shove I'm opptumistic about the American eventually finding reasonable solutions.

[doublem]

I couldn't disagree more. I think this has turned into one of the more nasty displays of misinformation, attacks, and lies in a long time. During all this fighting nothing has been resolved, and insurance companies are going to come out the winner as usual.

[doublem]

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... _hysteria/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is what I was talking about a few days ago, when everyone around here thought I was insane. ACORN hysteria. Media influence? I think so.

[HomerPenguin]

Basically people didnt vote for McCain because he is white.

Right. Some of them voted for McCain because he isn't black like the other guy, but probably nobody voted for him because he's white.

[Geezer]

I would add that the people who are pro-Obama simply because of his race are a minority of the total population, while the number of people who are anti-Obama simply because of his race could very well be far greater. It's disingenuous to say that racism runs both ways, while ignoring the implications of this racism in terms of sheer numbers.

And I would WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree with this, and this is an ignorant statement to make. I have a question...how many members of the black population did you see wearing John Kerry shirts in 2004? Or Al Gore shirts in 2000? I work just outside of Philadelphia, and most of the people I work with are black. In the six months leading up to the election, it was a virtual daily worship of the guy. I asked a lot of people why they liked him, and they said "because he represents US". Now what do you think that means? To suggest that a majority of blacks did not vote for Obama because he shared their racial background, while saying that "far greater" whites dislike Obama because he is black, is a preposterous statement.

I don't think you understood my original post, as I did not suggest that a majority of blacks did not vote for Obama because of race. In fact, even if 90% of blacks voted for Obama because of his race, if one assumes that the percentage of racists in the black population and the white population is pretty much equal, then white racists are going to far outnumber black racists, simply because there are a lot more whites in the US than blacks.

Supporting and inflaming this racism, as some of the Tea Party supporters are doing, is not for the good of the country and should be called out, both by Republicans and Democrats.

I agree that it's not good for the country for tea party supporters or anyone to inflame racism. Obviously it's immoral and should be viewed as UnAmerican. For those of us favoring a conservative fiscal approach it's conter - productive since it takes away from legitimate concerns and helps those who equate opposition to Obama's policies as selfish rich racists. What I disagree with (and I'm not accusing you of this) is the portayal that such racism is common or even slightly significant in the conservative or moderate opposition crowd.
Lefties like Jenine Garofalo have beating the "Republican or conservative = racism" drum since before the election and they've never stopped. Now a flaming orifice like Jimmy Carter weighs in that opposition equates unacceptance of a black president. I feel democrats should be calling out the those people.
I didn't vote for Obama but I felt that it was an important milestone that a black person could get elected president. I positive that an overwhelming percentage of people who voted against him felt the same way. IMO people like Carter are counterproductive to liberal causes. It's infuriarating to be wrongly labelled as racist for opposing their policies. I believe the unfarirness of this makes actually hardens the oppostion and reduces any chances for compromise.

[Ron`]

David Duke would rise to the level of Van Jones only if he formally joined a Nazi party and advocated an American revolution to formulate a facist state. In other words while Dukes and Jones were kindred racist bigots Jones was even more reprehensible. Until opposition to big government policies are proven as racism the lefties should STFU about racism until they clean up their own party.

Lol You just went over the top with that one. I can't even see the most remote comparison between the two of them. David Duke was the grand wizard of the KKK.

That sir is racist in the most extreme. One is a wack job publicly ie. Duke, the other is much more subtle... Both are non factors in reality imo.

[MWB]

One of the bigger problems with all of this is that crazy people on both sides have taken the race issue and tried to use it for political gain. By doing that it has hidden the fact that there are still issues with race in this country. Just because we have a black president didn't eliminate those issues.

And I'm sorry, but there is a difference between voting for someone because he shares something with you and not voting for someone because of hate. It is human nature (although not necessarily the best thing for the country) to vote for someone because s/he shares something with you. It is based on a commonality that people find comfort in. It is a completely different animal to vote against someone because of hatred you have for a certain group of people.

[MWB]

I agree that it's not good for the country for tea party supporters or anyone to inflame racism. Obviously it's immoral and should be viewed as UnAmerican. For those of us favoring a conservative fiscal approach it's conter - productive since it takes away from legitimate concerns and helps those who equate opposition to Obama's policies as selfish rich racists. What I disagree with (and I'm not accusing you of this) is the portayal that such racism is common or even slightly significant in the conservative or moderate opposition crowd.
Lefties like Jenine Garofalo have beating the "Republican or conservative = racism" since before the election and they've never stopped. Now a flaming orifice like Jimmy Carter weighs in that opposition equates unacceptance of a black president. I feel democrats should be calling out the those people.
I didn't vote for Obama but I felt that it was an important milestone that a black person could get elected president. I positive that an overwhelming percentage of people who voted against him felt the same way. IMO people like Carter are counterproductive to liberal causes. It's infuriarating to be wrongly labelled as racist for opposing their policies. I believe the unfarirness of this makes actually hardens the oppostion and reduces any chances for compromise.

Well said.

[Ron`]

Huh, I'm pointing out fear tactics used to get people to believe certain things, what is the problem?

There is the explanation to your statement that I was asking for.

Homer, I have no idea what you're :popping: about.

Fear politics, it has taken hold in this country starting after 9-11.

And you thrive on it... you live for shock media yet vote based on what principals? Oh wait, you don't vote.... It's not worth you time...

[doublem]

I do vote, but that might be ending soon. I live for what now? I vote for left principles, not I have much of an option in this country. I don't tell people to be afraid of unknowns. Don't be afraid people.

[Ron`]

I do vote, but that might be ending soon. I live for what now? I vote for left principles, not I have much of an option in this country. I don't tell people to be afraid of unknowns. Don't be afraid people.

I apoligize if you vote, but to color this issue with racism is weak, very weak. People are laid off, in a big way. Jobs aren't on the horizon. Lets take over one of our last industrial bases and run it better. Surely we can make cars more efficiently that way...

We need to focus on carbon emissions and shut down all energy production not associated with that now... But we also have to stall Nuclear production.... Windmills which we can puff our pot smoke into will save us... Everyone can just carry one in their hand... Along the way we will reduce health care costs by legislating it for everone, by volume the costs will come down.... Can't we all just sit down and have beer to resolve this....

This administration is way in over it's head, period.... To many pipe dreams hitting the fan at once....

[doublem]

I apoligize if you vote, but to color this issue with racism is weak, very weak.

I haven't been.

[Ron`]

I apoligize if you vote, but to color this issue with racism is weak, very weak.

I haven't been.

Yet the change you still support is now resorting to playing that card... It's all they have left...

[doublem]

I apoligize if you vote, but to color this issue with racism is weak, very weak.

I haven't been.

Yet the change you still support is now resorting to playing that card... It's all they have left...

I don't who said that, but Obama dismisses what Carter said.

[youtube][/youtube]

[Ron`]

That's because those that remember and lived through the Carter years have already dismissed it. The same generations that are screaming now..... But it's been the predominate theme all over the media masses, which will only incite more drops in this administrations ratings....

[Ron`]

On the bright side Ed Rendell is sure opening table gambling will save this states budget...... Hey Ed, how about some real jobs that will save the budget via tax revenue. You can only pull so much money from bingo like games until the patrons die from smoking, drinking or old age.... Just ask the Elks, Moose, Knights of Columbus etc.... They all have proven this theory and failed....

[Tico Rick]

And I would WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree with this, and this is an ignorant statement to make. I have a question...how many members of the black population did you see wearing John Kerry shirts in 2004? Or Al Gore shirts in 2000? I work just outside of Philadelphia, and most of the people I work with are black. In the six months leading up to the election, it was a virtual daily worship of the guy. I asked a lot of people why they liked him, and they said "because he represents US". Now what do you think that means? To suggest that a majority of blacks did not vote for Obama because he shared their racial background, while saying that "far greater" whites dislike Obama because he is black, is a preposterous statement.

I don't think you understood my original post, as I did not suggest that a majority of blacks did not vote for Obama because of race. In fact, even if 90% of blacks voted for Obama because of his race, if one assumes that the percentage of racists in the black population and the white population is pretty much equal, then white racists are going to far outnumber black racists, simply because there are a lot more whites in the US than blacks.

Supporting and inflaming this racism, as some of the Tea Party supporters are doing, is not for the good of the country and should be called out, both by Republicans and Democrats.

I agree that it's not good for the country for tea party supporters or anyone to inflame racism. Obviously it's immoral and should be viewed as UnAmerican. For those of us favoring a conservative fiscal approach it's conter - productive since it takes away from legitimate concerns and helps those who equate opposition to Obama's policies as selfish rich racists. What I disagree with (and I'm not accusing you of this) is the portayal that such racism is common or even slightly significant in the conservative or moderate opposition crowd.
Lefties like Jenine Garofalo have beating the "Republican or conservative = racism" drum since before the election and they've never stopped. Now a flaming orifice like Jimmy Carter weighs in that opposition equates unacceptance of a black president. I feel democrats should be calling out the those people.
I didn't vote for Obama but I felt that it was an important milestone that a black person could get elected president. I positive that an overwhelming percentage of people who voted against him felt the same way. IMO people like Carter are counterproductive to liberal causes. It's infuriarating to be wrongly labelled as racist for opposing their policies. I believe the unfarirness of this makes actually hardens the oppostion and reduces any chances for compromise.

I agree with you, Geezer. (Wow, that's a sentence I thought I'd never write! ) What concerns me are cynical Republicans who, though they may not themselves be racist, believe that they can gain support by pandering to racists. Look at Joe Wilson, for example. He received $1 million in donations after being disrespectful to a black president. There's money/support/power to be gained there, if politicians want to go that route.

[pittsoccer33]

Look at Joe Wilson, for example. He received $1 million in donations after being disrespectful to a black president. There's money/support/power to be gained there, if politicians want to go that route.

He was disrespectful to THE president. What difference is his race? The only known affirmed racist in the government is KKK Byrd over on the Democrats side. I am so speechless that you think that outburst was about race. I seriously cant believe that. Are you ready to say that any criticism of conservatives by blacks/latinos/asians/women/martians/vulcans is because of race?

I would also like to point out that Wilson was right, that over the next few days the Democrats scrambled to try and add the provisions barring illegals that they'd already shot down when Republicans tried to pass them.

[Tico Rick]

Look at Joe Wilson, for example. He received $1 million in donations after being disrespectful to a black president. There's money/support/power to be gained there, if politicians want to go that route.

He was disrespectful to THE president. What difference is his race? The only known affirmed racist in the government is KKK Byrd over on the Democrats side. I am so speechless that you think that outburst was about race. I seriously cant believe that. Are you ready to say that any criticism of conservatives by blacks/latinos/asians/women/martians/vulcans is because of race?

Read the sentence I wrote before the sentence you quoted. I wrote "what concerns me are cynical Republicans who, though they may not themselves be racist, believe that they can gain support by pandering to racists." It's disingenuous of you claim the outburst was not about race. Do you know the history of South Carolina? Do you know how South Carolina voted in the last election? You may not, but I'm sure Joe Wilson does.

[shafnutz05]

That was a good point pitt about the veracity of Wilson's outburst. There was a reason the Dems did NOT have a provision in the bill prior to that barring illegals from receiving benefits. You can all disagree with me on this, but Wilson's outburst? It FORCED the White House to change the bill around. People have been shouting about it for a while, but it took an outburst in a presidential address to Congress for something to be changed.