LGP Political Discussion Thread

[Fast B]

Really? One guy's incompetence spoils the whole bag?

Why is that not true of Bush and conservatism? Oh, right, Bush wasn't conservative.

OK, what about Reagan's massive deficits and expansionist governance? Oh, right, Reagan wasn't conservative. Or Congress made him do it. Or whatever.

I have to admit, the creation of an ideology that is both perfect in its construction but utterly ahistorical is a stunning achievement. Without any past failures to cite, because of course any failure must by definition not have been a true example of the ideology, it makes your position infallible. You guys have a lot in common with religious fundamentalists.

Let's be fair, Homer. Actual conservatism is fine. Too bad we haven't seen any from the Republican party anytime recently.

Anyway, there's not much debate to be had with somebody who trots out lines like "the failure of anything liberal".

[MWB]

Over 90% of blacks vote for Democrats...if you ask them why they do, most of them would probably answer "because they help us and the Republicans are racist rich white folks" (or something along those lines).

That's quite a vast generalization, and I doubt it's true. As much as you've said that the crazy left wing media just puts nuts out there to make it look like the right doesn't like Obama because he's racist, you're doing the same thing on the other side.

[shafnutz05]

Let's be fair, Homer. Actual conservatism is fine. Too bad we haven't seen any from the Republican party anytime recently.

Anyway, there's not much debate to be had with somebody who trots out lines like "the failure of anything liberal".

Thank you....I believe in true conservatism; as a matter of fact, I fancy myself as something of a constitutionalist. The Demicans and Republicrats are all feeding from the same trough.

[dagny]

Anyone can criticize the president, no one should have a problem with that, but I would say there has been a racial element to some of the protests and other things that I have seen. Not that it should really be that shocking, I don't think we need to talk about race all the time, and I would say both sides have been doing that.

One sides been talking about it non-stop. The other side doesn't want it talked about because it's the side always being accused of racism.

Sure, they only want to take about scaring people to death becasue of the evil commies and terrorists.

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Do you have an actual point to make here? With reasoning? You've already stated that your opinion will make no difference in this country. So, what, exactly are you trying to accomplish here? If it's simply to rile things up, I suggest you bow out of this discussion now.
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[Gaucho]

Capitalism did not lead to the economic crisis. Immoral and irresponsible executives/politicians did.

Capitalism leads to immoral and irresponsible executives/politicians. It is based on growth, growth and growth which leads to greed, greed and greed. Just my opinion, of course.

[shafnutz05]

Capitalism did not lead to the economic crisis. Immoral and irresponsible executives/politicians did.

Capitalism leads to immoral and irresponsible executives/politicians. It is based on growth, growth and growth which leads to greed, greed and greed. Just my opinion, of course.

and your point is??

[HomerPenguin]

Let's be fair, Homer. Actual conservatism is fine. Too bad we haven't seen any from the Republican party anytime recently.

Or ever, near as I can figure. I'm not sure there's a case of actual conservatism (classical liberalism, I guess, although I don't find anything classically liberal about anybody going around under the banner of conservatism today, neo- or otherwise) being undertaken, here or anywhere else, since the 18th century at best. Which, again, makes for a wonderfully easy sell without any historical record.

Anyway, there's not much debate to be had with somebody who trots out lines like "the failure of anything liberal".

True, which is why I wasn't really seeking any debate there.

[HomerPenguin]

One sides been talking about it non-stop. The other side doesn't want it talked about because it's the side always being accused of racism.

Sure, they only want to take about scaring people to death becasue of the evil commies and terrorists.

------------------------------------------------------
Do you have an actual point to make here? With reasoning? You've already stated that your opinion will make no difference in this country. So, what, exactly are you trying to accomplish here? If it's simply to rile things up, I suggest you bow out of this discussion now.
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So we're only allowed to point out the demagoguery on one side?

[doublem]

Huh, I'm pointing out fear tactics used to get people to believe certain things, what is the problem?

[dagny]

Let's be fair, Homer. Actual conservatism is fine. Too bad we haven't seen any from the Republican party anytime recently.

Anyway, there's not much debate to be had with somebody who trots out lines like "the failure of anything liberal".

Thank you....I believe in true conservatism; as a matter of fact, I fancy myself as something of a constitutionalist. The Demicans and Republicrats are all feeding from the same trough.

I've seen soooooo many people say this. I agree, but my question is, why continue to stay registered with, and continue voting for, either party? Nothing is going to change until people find the courage to to step away from supporting these parties, en masse.

[dagny]

Huh, I'm pointing out fear tactics used to get people to believe certain things, what is the problem?

There is the explanation to your statement that I was asking for.

Homer, I have no idea what you're :popping: about.

[shafnutz05]

I don't believe I am being a demagogue, just having a debate.

as far as the "evil commies and terrorists" statement, I think the point she was making was that he was making it in response to Geezer's statement. But instead of addressing what Geezer said, he just pulled the pin and threw a grenade into the discussion without using concrete facts. I could be wrong though.

[shafnutz05]

I've seen soooooo many people say this. I agree, but my question is, why continue to stay registered with, and continue voting for, either party? Nothing is going to change until people find the courage to to step away from supporting these parties, en masse.

I know It sucks doesn't it? It basically comes down to voting for the lesser of two evils. Would love to see a Constitutionalist Party resurgence though

[dagny]

as far as the "evil commies and terrorists" statement, I think the point she was making was that he was making it in response to Geezer's statement. But instead of addressing what Geezer said, he just pulled the pin and threw a grenade into the discussion without using concrete facts. I could be wrong though.

[doublem]

Huh, I'm pointing out fear tactics used to get people to believe certain things, what is the problem?

There is the explanation to your statement that I was asking for.

Homer, I have no idea what you're :popping: about.

Fear politics, it has taken hold in this country starting after 9-11.

[HomerPenguin]

I don't believe I am being a demagogue, just having a debate.

I don't think anybody accused you, personally, of being one. Maybe I'm wrong.

as far as the "evil commies and terrorists" statement, I think the point she was making was that he was making it in response to Geezer's statement. But instead of addressing what Geezer said, he just pulled the pin and threw a grenade into the discussion without using concrete facts. I could be wrong though.

Hm. I'm pretty sure it's a concrete fact that certain prominent folks have been talking about commies and terrorists since at least the middle of last summer. You betcha.

[shafnutz05]

I don't believe I am being a demagogue, just having a debate.

I don't think anybody accused you, personally, of being one. Maybe I'm wrong.

as far as the "evil commies and terrorists" statement, I think the point she was making was that he was making it in response to Geezer's statement. But instead of addressing what Geezer said, he just pulled the pin and threw a grenade into the discussion without using concrete facts. I could be wrong though.

Hm. I'm pretty sure it's a concrete fact that certain prominent folks have been talking about commies and terrorists since at least the middle of last summer. You betcha.

Yea, you're right. I wish the Repubs could just release a list with 20 bullet points, going like this for example:

1) We oppose cap and trade, because it will lead to increased unemployment, outsourcing, and an increased cost to the average American family.

2) We oppose.... and so on and so forth.

The problem is, the Republican Party speakers are about as charismatic as Bob Dole. Staking my horse to Bobby Jindal...

[dagny]

Huh, I'm pointing out fear tactics used to get people to believe certain things, what is the problem?

There is the explanation to your statement that I was asking for.

Homer, I have no idea what you're :popping: about.

Fear politics, it has taken hold in this country starting after 9-11.

Did you know that "fear and consumption" is basis for Marilyn Manson's idea to do the shock rock that he's done? (I can't stand his music, but he is intelligent.) In an old interview I saw with him, before 9/11, he attributes his observation of the media and gov't using fear to manipulate. The consumption part was how, you instill fear in the masses and they run out and stock up for the end of the world, etc.

I couldn't agree with you more. However, it didn't start with 9/11. This has been in practice for a while, it was just capitalized on after that incident to get people to agree to give up their civil liberties in exchange for "security". To get people to "stimulate the economy". Be prepared. We may be invaded. Go out and stock up.

You know the spike in people buying survival supplies/gear after 9/11?

Yes, it is a tactic. No, it is not limited to any one administration or party. It is something that the American public needs to start being cognizant of, and do something about. But, then, isn't everything?

[doublem]

I don't believe I am being a demagogue, just having a debate.

as far as the "evil commies and terrorists" statement, I think the point she was making was that he was making it in response to Geezer's statement. But instead of addressing what Geezer said, he just pulled the pin and threw a grenade into the discussion without using concrete facts. I could be wrong though.

He said that the other side doesn't what to be involved in the racist stuff , and I was pointing out that I guess it's okay to be involved in all kind of other fear mongering.

[dagny]

I don't believe I am being a demagogue, just having a debate.

I don't think anybody accused you, personally, of being one. Maybe I'm wrong.

as far as the "evil commies and terrorists" statement, I think the point she was making was that he was making it in response to Geezer's statement. But instead of addressing what Geezer said, he just pulled the pin and threw a grenade into the discussion without using concrete facts. I could be wrong though.

Hm. I'm pretty sure it's a concrete fact that certain prominent folks have been talking about commies and terrorists since at least the middle of last summer. You betcha.

Come on, Homer. You know better than that.

shafty was right about the way it was thrown in there. It's not like I'm unfamiliar with people's posting track records. When you guys get on an actual discussion point, and someone throws an empty statement out like that, someone who has a tendency to bring civil discussion to a halt with those random 'grenades', I'm gonna say something.

You do it too, but you provide reasoning, which gets people thinking and discussing.

[doublem]

Yea, that is what I have been saying. Sure both parties do it, but the right as been in power, and had the White House and Congress since the start of the 80's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_ ... s#Reaction" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[dagny]

Why have they continued to stay in power?

Because, we the people, haven't stood up and done anything to change it. It is our job. Do not expect the people in power, who covet their power, to make the changes.

People complain about who is and has been in power. You know the saying, if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem?

What are people doing to change it? What are you going to do to change it? Or are you going to just continue to complain about it, while doing nothing?

I, for one, am going into Constitutional Law, so that I may try to inject some ethics into the legal system, be educated enough to have the ammunition to argue for change, and to fight from within.

[doublem]

Why have they continued to stay in power?

Because, we the people, haven't stood up and done anything to change it. It is our job. Do not expect the people in power, who covet their power, to make the changes.

People complain about who is and has been in power. You know the saying, if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem?

What are people doing to change it? What are you going to do to change it? Or are you going to just continue to complain about it, while doing nothing?

I, for one, am going into Constitutional Law, so that I may try to inject some ethics into the legal system, be educated enough to have the ammunition to argue for change, and to fight from within.

Great. Do you know the amount of work it would take to change this system? If it is even possible? The system is so full of crap it would have to take some type of major earth changing event to get people to think differently. It would take a large scale movement and in this atomized country, I don't think you can get it to last more then two weeks.

First, you think that people in this country want things to change, and have a idea on how to do that. I'm not so sure about that. I'm an idealist at heart, deep down I wish for change, but I'm also a realist, and I know it will never happen here. I don't want to be involved with any system, or any group. I understand why rich people don't care about anything besides profit, but I don't understand why hard working middle class people do? I largely feel abandoned by this country and culture, so for now I will watch it all unfold, and observe.

Edit: I love what this country aspired to be, and still does at points,that is what I want, the ideals it was founded on, it was such a noble experiment. The great revolutionary ideas, and thinkers. The problem now is that is all basically dead, all long term vision is gone, and so are ideas, we have reached a period of stagnancy, and this isn't new, it's been happening for about 80 plus years.

[DelPen]

Yea, that is what I have been saying. Sure both parties do it, but the right as been in power, and had the White House and Congress since the start of the 80's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_ ... s#Reaction" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You sure about that?

[doublem]

Yea, that is what I have been saying. Sure both parties do it, but the right as been in power, and had the White House and Congress since the start of the 80's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_ ... s#Reaction" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You sure about that?

About what? Mostly in power, yea. One Democratic president, not counting the current one.