LGP Political Discussion Thread

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Fast B
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Fast B »

shafnutz05 wrote:I don't even pretend to understand the amazingly complex history of our species, much less the Earth. I have no problem with saying that sure, evolution could have occurred. But it was via God's plan.
These two statements seem at odds. You have no idea how things work, but you know it's God's plan. Got it.
How did all that superpacked material before the Big Bang get there in the first place. Someone (or something) had to put it there, right?
Where did this "God" come from? Was he always there? Wouldn't someone or something have to create him as well?
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by PensFanInDC »

I will start off by saying that you can believe ANYTHING you want to. I don't care what anyone thinks, I have NEVER said anything to the contrary. While I believe in something that I consider to be the Truth, that does not mean that I FORCE it on anyone. I will provide links and quotes that support what I believe. If you choose to accept it, great! If not, that's your choice.

I believe that God created everything. Science is something, therefore God created science too. (Remember, that is my belief and the belief of at least 4 billion other people. The 4 billion is an estimate of Christians, Muslims and Jews in the world. All of whom believe in intelligent design. This does NOT mean that you HAVE to believe too.)

All links come from the main link found at...
http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/index.html


http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... intro.html
Before we can get started, we need to agree on some principles that govern (or should govern) a skeptical worldview. The first and foremost principle is that all beliefs should be based upon observational evidence. Unlike theists, who base some of their beliefs on religious writings, skeptics must rely completely upon physical evidence. The second principle is that skeptics must be logically consistent at all times. In other words, a skeptic may not believe something to be true if it is contradicted by observational evidence. Most skeptics who are atheists believe that all phenomena have naturalistic causes. This belief is based upon the observation of our world, in which cause and effect are observed on a daily basis, with rare exception, if at all. One must ask the question, "Just because cause and effect overwhelmingly operate in our universe, does this mean that supernatural events never occur?" Even in the Bible, which claims to be a record of God's supernatural actions, over 90% of what is described is purely naturalistic. So, even the Bible recognizes that the vast majority of events that occur in the universe have a natural cause. However, one who insists that supernatural events never occur is expressing a belief that can never be fully confirmed. To be truly open-minded, one must recognize the possibility that supernatural events do occur.
Let me point out one major problem with the skeptical worldview in order to get you to the point of recognizing that not all the data really fits your worldview. The data we are going to examine is the origin of the universe. Before the 20th century, atheists assumed that the universe was eternal. However, beginning with Einstein's theory of general relativity,1 and early observational evidence,2 it became apparent that the universe was expanding. Extrapolating back in time revealed that the universe was merely billions of years old. The data eventually led to the "Big Bang" theory, which is virtually universally accepted by modern day cosmologist.3 Attempts to get around the idea4 that the universe had a beginning3 have all met with observational difficulties.5 The idea that the universe could have gone through an infinite number of births and deaths (the oscillating universe theory) was shown to be false on the basis of the lack of amount of matter within the universe, and the fact that any collapse would have led to a "Big Crunch" instead of another Big Bang.6 So, we have come to realize that the universe first began to exist 13.7 billion years ago. Atheists are left with a dilemma, since their worldview requires that all things that begin to exist must have a cause. So, logic requires the admission that the universe had a cause. Virtually all atheists say that this cause was some natural phenomenon. It is also possible that the cause of the universe was a supernatural intelligence (i.e., God). However, there is no direct observational evidence for either belief. Those who are "strong atheists" (not working out in the gym, but having a belief that no god exists) have just violated one of the main rules of atheism - that all beliefs are based upon observational evidence. So, any atheist who denies the possible existence of God violates his own worldview.

The problem actually gets worse for the atheist. The physical laws of the universe fall within very narrow ranges in order for life (or even matter) to exist, suggesting some level of design (the evidence supporting this statement will be presented in part 2). If true, then the observational evidence actually leans toward the existence of God, contradicting strong atheism. The prospect of finding a naturalistic cause for the origin of the universe is bleak at best, since the laws of physics indicate that we will never be able escape the bounds of our universe to even attempt to look for the cause of the universe.
I implore you to read this article as well:
http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/ ... ponse.html
It is widely acknowledged that the fossil record is incomplete. Yet many Persons who study fossil organisms and their related remains.paleontologists hold that while incomplete, the fossil record is generally adequate enough to discern patterns such as stasis and absence of gradual evolutionary trends.26 The A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid fossil record too is incomplete, but it is questionable if the A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid fossil record is adequate to discern clear The study of relatedness among various groups of organisms (e.g., species, populations), determined through sequencing and morphological data.phylogenetic relationships. Most A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid fossil discoveries are partial The part of the skull that encloses the brain.crania, partial jaws, isolated teeth or and occasionally isolated limbs.27, 28 It is very rare for Scientists who study a branch of anthropology dealing with fossil hominids.paleoanthropologists to find a complete The part of the skull that encloses the brain.cranium, let alone a complete skeleton. Moreover, very few of the extinct A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid species are known from a large numbers of samples. In most cases, there are a limited number of specimens that are attributed to a given A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid species. Further compounding this problem, is the fact that the A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid remains often have been crushed, shattered, and deformed prior to fossilization or through geological processes. (See below for a further discussion on the particular problems associated with Referring to the part of the skull that encloses the brain.cranial fossils and their use to estimate A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid brain volume.)

It is not clear how many A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid species have existed throughout the course of the last 4.5 million years. In part, this is due to the incompleteness of the fossil record. However, it is also a function of the nature of the A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominidfossil record as well. With a limited number of Referring to the part of the skull that encloses the brain.cranial and post Referring to the part of the skull that encloses the brain.cranial fossil fragments to work with it is not clear if observed differences in morphology are true indicators of a novel species or simply intraspecific variations within a population, across geography or through time. This problem and its implications are illustrated in a recent report describing a newly discovered partial The part of the skull that encloses the brain.cranium and partial jaw ascribed to A species of extinct hominid, living 2.6 to 1.2 million years ago, considered it to be the first hominin species to use stone tools. Formerly classified as Australopithecus boisei.Paranthropus boisei.29, 30

The ambiguity surrounding the definition of a species further complicates the process of determining the number of A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid species.31 There is no established relationship between morphological differences and speciation. A species can be defined as an interbreeding population (biological species concept) or as morphologically distinct populations (The study of relatedness among various groups of organisms (e.g., species, populations), determined through sequencing and morphological data.phylogenetic species concept). Based on which concept the researcher embraces he/she will either view novel anatomical features as indicative of a new species (splitters) or as an intraspecific variation (lumpers). That is, researcher opinion may have as much to do with determining A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid Taxonomic units are names designating groups of organisms.taxa as does objective scientific data. In addition, recent studies of plant33 and bacterial34 kingdoms suggest that morphology alone is often not indicative of genetic relationships.

Evolutionary The histories of descent of taxa from common ancestors, including the relative times at which species branched or diverged from each other.phylogenies (relationships) are determined by comparing anatomical similarities in the fossil record and among extant species. Given the problems with the A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid fossil record it is questionable if evolutionary biologists can ever hope for more than crude working The histories of descent of taxa from common ancestors, including the relative times at which species branched or diverged from each other.phylogenies.32 Examination of textbooks and treatises on human evolution point to the reality that Scientists who study a branch of anthropology dealing with fossil hominids.paleoanthropologists are far from reaching a consensus on the pathway of A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid and human evolution.35, 36 The uncertainty of A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid The study of relatedness among various groups of organisms (e.g., species, populations), determined through sequencing and morphological data.phylogenetic relationships has recently been underscored.37, 38 Scientists who study a branch of anthropology dealing with fossil hominids.Paleoanthropologists, Bernard Wood and Mark Collard have presented a convincing argument for the removal of the two closely related species An extinct species of the genus Homo, which lived approximately 2.5 million to 1.6 million years ago.Homo habilis and An ape-like extinct bipedal hominid that lived in Africa around 1.9 million years ago.Homo rudolfensis from the genus A genus within the subfamily Homininae that includes modern humans and related species (e.g., Homo habilis, Homo erectus, Homo ergaster, and Homo sapiens).Homo and their placement among Referring to members of a genus of extinct hominids, characterized by being the earliest bipedal primate (up to 3.7 million years ago).Australopithecines. An extinct species of the genus Homo, which lived approximately 2.5 million to 1.6 million years ago.Homo habilis and An ape-like extinct bipedal hominid that lived in Africa around 1.9 million years ago.Homo rudolfensis are now recognized as having ape-like body mass, body proportions, teeth, and jaws closely related to Referring to members of a genus of extinct hominids, characterized by being the earliest bipedal primate (up to 3.7 million years ago).Australopithecines. The The ability of a species to utilize a form of walking characterized by an erect stance in which the rear legs are used for movement.bipedalism possessed by these organisms is also distinct from the obligate The ability of a species to utilize a form of walking characterized by an erect stance in which the rear legs are used for movement.bipedalism of The only surviving hominid species, comprising modern human beings and characterized as being a bipedal primate with a large brain capacity, capable of language and the ability to make and use complex tools.Homo sapiens, and closely aligned to that of the Referring to members of a genus of extinct hominids, characterized by being the earliest bipedal primate (up to 3.7 million years ago).Australopithecines. A An extinct species of the genus Homo, which lived approximately 2.5 million to 1.6 million years ago.Homo habilis and An ape-like extinct bipedal hominid that lived in Africa around 1.9 million years ago.Homo rudolfensis and the other Referring to members of a genus of extinct hominids, characterized by being the earliest bipedal primate (up to 3.7 million years ago).Australopithecines displayed facultative The ability of a species to utilize a form of walking characterized by an erect stance in which the rear legs are used for movement.bipedalism and the capability for tree climbing.39, 40 This new understanding now weakens the position of An extinct species of the genus Homo, which lived approximately 2.5 million to 1.6 million years ago.Homo habilis and An ape-like extinct bipedal hominid that lived in Africa around 1.9 million years ago.Homo rudolfensis as transitional species. These two species have long been regarded as transitional species between the Referring to members of a genus of extinct hominids, characterized by being the earliest bipedal primate (up to 3.7 million years ago).Australopithecines and An extinct species of the genus Homo, which appeared approximately 1.8 million years ago.Homo erectus. Placement of species An extinct species of the genus Homo, which lived approximately 2.5 million to 1.6 million years ago.Homo habilis and An ape-like extinct bipedal hominid that lived in Africa around 1.9 million years ago.Homo rudolfensis among Referring to members of a genus of extinct hominids, characterized by being the earliest bipedal primate (up to 3.7 million years ago).Australopithecines creates a discontinuity in A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid The histories of descent of taxa from common ancestors, including the relative times at which species branched or diverged from each other.phylogenies. This recent work was not cited in the Time article. Could it be that the reason for this is that it does not help "fill in the story of how we evolved", but reveals how little insight Scientists who study a branch of anthropology dealing with fossil hominids.paleoanthropologists have into human origins?

There are other problems that frustrate Scientists who study a branch of anthropology dealing with fossil hominids.paleoanthropologists' efforts to establish A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid evolutionary relationships.41 Convergent features are quite common among A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid fossils and suggest evolutionary connections among Members of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominids that do not exist. It is troubling to discover that Scientists who study a branch of anthropology dealing with fossil hominids.paleoanthropologists recognize this as a wide spread problem, but have no clear understanding as which traits are convergent. Additionally, small data sets that are focused on A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid The part of the skull that encloses the brain.crania also lead to artificial results, since other important anatomical features are disregarded. Postcranial fossils are not as abundant as Referring to the part of the skull that encloses the brain.cranial remains in the A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid fossil record. Moreover, Referring to the part of the skull that encloses the brain.cranial traits are often treated as independent from one another. In actuality, many of these traits are more appropriately grouped as a trait complex. If trait complexes are not recognized, then artificially strong evolutionary relatedness is concluded when in fact it may not be the case at all.

It is clear that evolutionary relationships proposed by Scientists who study a branch of anthropology dealing with fossil hominids.paleoanthropologists are highly speculative and developed from unreliable and poorly understood data sets of limited size. In light of this, it is scientifically untenable to assert that human evolution is a fact. What is a fact, is that evolutionary biologists have chosen to interpret their data within an evolutionary paradigm exclusively. From this framework, they then declare that their data supports human evolution. In order to demonstrate that humans evolved by natural processes, there must be rigorous evidence of clearly established evolutionary relationships with obvious transitions in the fossil record. The fact that there is no consensus among Scientists who study a branch of anthropology dealing with fossil hominids.paleoanthropologists concerning the pathway of human evolution, nor can there ever be given the data available, means that human evolution has not been established as a fact. In addition to time-based verification, there also must be a well-defined mechanism that can produce the necessary evolutionary changes in the time available. Recent work on methodology to determine extinct A member of the biological family Hominidae, which includes all the "great apes," - extinct and extant humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans.hominid brain size indicates that this is also not the case for human evolution.
And one final link and quote...

http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/ ... aconserved
A new study compared the speed of enamel formation in teeth from over 100 Neandertal fossils compared to upper Paleolithic-Mesolithic Homo sapiens (ancient modern humans) and Homo antecessor and Homo heidelbergensis. The upper Paleolithic-Mesolithic H. sapiens exhibited identical dental development compared with modern humans. However, both Homo antecessor and Homo heidelbergensis developed much faster than modern humans while Neandertals developed even faster than their "ancestors." This study provides even more evidence that Neandertals were not ancestral to modern humans.

Ramirez, F. V., R. and J. Maria Bermudez de Castro. 2004. Surprisingly rapid growth in Neanderthals. Nature 428: 936-939 doi:10.1038/nature02428.

Identical non-coding regions in diverse vertebrate groupsRecent completion of genome sequencing for many diverse vertebrates has revealed long sequences (at least 200 bp) of non-coding DNA that are identical or nearly identical. Between humans and mice, 481 of these sequences are 100% identical. Between humans and dogs, the sequences are 99% identical. Even between humans and chickens, the sequences are 95% identical. These sequences are found on all humans chromosomes except 21 and Y. The probability is less than one chance in 1022 of finding even one such sequence in 2.9 billion bases under a simple model of neutral evolution with independent substitutions at each site. Among numerous human individuals, there is almost no sequence variation (only 6 out of over 100,000 bases). The highly unlikely existence of these identical sequences indicate that they must be absolutely required for survival, since the natural mutation rate in humans would have been expected to produce at least 20 times more variation than what is observed.
This is just a small sample of all the info you can find at:
http://www.godandscience.org
Fast B
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Fast B »

PensFanInDC wrote:I believe that God created everything. Science is something, therefore God created science too. (Remember, that is my belief and the belief of at least 4 billion other people. The 4 billion is an estimate of Christians, Muslims and Jews in the world. All of whom believe in intelligent design. This does NOT mean that you HAVE to believe too.)
I know you're not doing this on purpose, but this paragraph sounds vaguely threatening.

"You don't have to believe in this, but me and my 4 billion friends will disagree with you."

;)
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by PensFanInDC »

Fast B wrote:Where did this "God" come from? Was he always there? Wouldn't someone or something have to create him as well?
This can help answer that question for you if you so choose.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... d_god.html
Who created God? It is an age-old question that has plagued all those who like to think about the big questions. Having grown up as an agnostic non-Christian, it provided me with a potential reason why there might not be any god. Various religions tend to solve the problem in different ways. The LDS church (Mormonism) says that the God (Elohim) to whom we are accountable had a father god, then grew up on a planet as a man, and progressed to become a god himself. Many other religions have claimed that gods beget other gods. Of course the problem with this idea is how did the first god get here? This problem of infinite regression invalidates such religions. Christianity claims that God has always existed. Is this idea even possible? Does science address such issues?

Christianity's answerChristianity answers the question of who created God in the very first verse of the very first book, Genesis:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)

This verse tells us that God was acting before time when He created the universe. Many other verses from the New Testament tells us that God was acting before time began, and so, He created time, along with the other dimensions of our universe:

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)
This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)
The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)
To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)
The idea that God created time, along with the physical universe, is not just some wacky modern Christian interpretation of the Bible. Justin Martyr, a second century Christian apologist, in his Hortatory Address to the Greeks, said that Plato got the idea that time was created along with the universe from Moses:

"And from what source did Plato draw the information that time was created along with the heavens? For he wrote thus: “Time, accordingly, was created along with the heavens; in order that, coming into being together, they might also be together dissolved, if ever their dissolution should take place.” Had he not learned this from the divine history of Moses?"1

God exists in timeless eternityHow does God acting before time began get around the problem of God's creation? There are two possible interpretations of these verses. One is that God exists outside of time. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function. However, the premise is false. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence.

God exists in multiple dimension of timeThe second interpretation is that God exists in more than one dimension of time. Things that exist in one dimension of time are restricted to time's arrow and are confined to cause and effect. However, two dimensions of time form a plane of time, which has no beginning and no end and is not restricted to any single direction. A being that exists in at least two dimension of time can travel anywhere in time and yet never had a beginning, since a plane of time has no starting point. Either interpretation leads one to the conclusion that God has no need of having been created.

Why can't the universe be eternal?The idea that God can be eternal leads us to the idea that maybe the universe is eternal, and, therefore, God doesn't need to exist at all. Actually, this was the prevalent belief of atheists before the observational data of the 20th century strongly refuted the idea that the universe was eternal. This fact presented a big dilemma for atheists, since a non-eternal universe implied that it must have been caused. Maybe Genesis 1:1 was correct! Not to be dismayed by the facts, atheists have invented some metaphysical "science" that attempt to explain away the existence of God. Hence, most atheistic cosmologists believe that we see only the visible part of a much larger "multiverse" that randomly spews out universes with different physical parameters.2 Since there is no evidence supporting this idea (nor can there be, according to the laws of the universe), it is really just a substitute "god" for atheists. And, since this "god" is non-intelligent by definition, it requires a complex hypothesis, which would be ruled out if we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon. Purposeful intelligent design of the universe makes much more sense, especially based upon what we know about the design of the universe.

What does science say about time?When Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time, the results showed that time has a beginning - at the moment of creation (i.e., the Big Bang).3 In fact, if you examine university websites, you will find that many professors make such a claim - that the universe had a beginning and that this beginning marked the beginning of time (see The Universe is Not Eternal, But Had A Beginning). Such assertions support the Bible's claim that time began at the creation of the universe.

Conclusion God has no need to have been created, since He exists either outside time (where cause and effect do not operate) or within multiple dimensions of time (such that there is no beginning of God's plane of time). Hence God is eternal, having never been created. Although it is possible that the universe itself is eternal, eliminating the need for its creation, observational evidence contradicts this hypothesis, since the universe began to exist a finite ~13.7 billion years ago. The only possible escape for the atheist is the invention of a kind of super universe, which can never be confirmed experimentally (hence it is metaphysical in nature, and not scientific).
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by PensFanInDC »

Fast B wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:I believe that God created everything. Science is something, therefore God created science too. (Remember, that is my belief and the belief of at least 4 billion other people. The 4 billion is an estimate of Christians, Muslims and Jews in the world. All of whom believe in intelligent design. This does NOT mean that you HAVE to believe too.)
I know you're not doing this on purpose, but this paragraph sounds vaguely threatening.

"You don't have to believe in this, but me and my 4 billion friends will disagree with you."

;)
If you perceive it as threatening, I apologize. It was not intended that way at all. I do appreciate you acknowledging that you know that I didn't mean it that way. My point was that intelligent design is actually the most accepted world view.

But what you said is true. You don't have to believe what I believe, but I will disagree with you. That's what is so great about discussion. Not everyone has to agree! And if we continue to do it peacefully, then there is no harm and no foul!

Peace be with you!
Last edited by PensFanInDC on Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Fast B »

PensFanInDC wrote:
Fast B wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:I believe that God created everything. Science is something, therefore God created science too. (Remember, that is my belief and the belief of at least 4 billion other people. The 4 billion is an estimate of Christians, Muslims and Jews in the world. All of whom believe in intelligent design. This does NOT mean that you HAVE to believe too.)
I know you're not doing this on purpose, but this paragraph sounds vaguely threatening.

"You don't have to believe in this, but me and my 4 billion friends will disagree with you."

;)
If you perceive it as threatening, I apologize. It was not intended that way at all. I do appreciate you acknowleging that you know that I didn't mean it that way. My point was that intelligent design is actually the most accepted world view.
Don't worry man, I was just joking. I think I've watched too many mob movies, so that's the way I interpreted it. :)
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by PensFanInDC »

Fast B wrote:Don't worry man, I was just joking. I think I've watched too many mob movies, so that's the way I interpreted it. :)
S'all good bro!

But can you imagine 4 billion knocking at your door saying "Excuse us, we have a bone to pick with you."? :lol:

Reminds me of the verizon commercials...
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by PensFanInDC »

One last thought...

If you haven't heard of Lee Strobel, he was a devout athiest who came to know God and Christ while trying to disprove God. His is an amazing story if you care to check it out.

Here is his biography:
http://www.leestrobel.com/LS_bio.htm
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by HomerPenguin »

DelPen wrote:If you wear glasses, how hard is it to function without them?
If eyes were intelligently designed, why would they fail so often that most people need corrective lenses?
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by HomerPenguin »

cs6687 wrote:Isn't liberal intelligence an oxymoron?
This must be what passes for "being respectful of other people's views" these days.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by PensFanInDC »

HomerPenguin wrote:
cs6687 wrote:Isn't liberal intelligence an oxymoron?
This must be what passes for "being respectful of other people's views" these days.
Agreed.

Let's keep it civilized people. This debate is rather awesome and let's not spoil it!
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by cs6687 »

I'm respectful of other's views, homer. I just can't handle talking to a liberal and them rebuttaling my points with ''Bush did this, Cheney did that, etc.'' From my perspective, liberals can't have a discussion without blaming the previous administration. That's what Obama, Hillary, etc have done for years. People believed every word they said. Obama was the puppet, though an articulate one, in a campaign of "hope, yes we can, and blame bush'' that resulted in him getting elected. It didn't hurt that the media was in the tank for him.

That's why I think most liberals aren't bright. They can't think for themselves and they support their cause without placing blame elsewhere.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by PensFanInDC »

HomerPenguin wrote:
DelPen wrote:If you wear glasses, how hard is it to function without them?
If eyes were intelligently designed, why would they fail so often that most people need corrective lenses?
When we were created, we were given free will. in use of our free will, we took a big ol bite out of death when we disobeyed God by eating of the forbidden fruit, thus inviting death and decay into our lives. This includes the decay of our human bodies-that begin to die from the day we are born.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by Troy Loney »

When you go from here:
From my perspective, liberals can't have a discussion without blaming the previous administration.
to here:
That's why I think most liberals aren't bright. They can't think for themselves

you arent being:
respectful of other's views
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by cs6687 »

Whatev. I respect their views. I just don't agree with them.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

Image

I think we all need a little of this
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by PensFanInDC »

cs6687 wrote:Whatev. I respect their views. I just don't agree with them.
That's why I think most liberals aren't bright. They can't think for themselves
This is not respect
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by PensFanInDC »

shafnutz05 wrote:Image

I think we all need a little of this
LGP Political Discussion Thread Beer Talks

I like it....I like it a lot.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by shafnutz05 »

don't really know how Gates drinks Red Stripe. That was the only swill they had down in Jamaica and it was absolutely disgusting.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by PensFanInDC »

shafnutz05 wrote:don't really know how Gates drinks Red Stripe. That was the only swill they had down in Jamaica and it was absolutely disgusting.
HUH!!??

There is a Guinness plant in Jamaica and most Jamaicans actually drink it over Red Stripe.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by PensFanInDC »

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/electio ... latestnews
The White House is collecting and storing comments and videos placed on its social-networking sites such as Facebook, Twitter and YouTube without notifying or asking the consent of the site users, a failure that appears to run counter to President Obama's promise of a transparent government and his pledge to protect privacy on the Internet, the Washington Times reported.
All those who were against the Patriot Act before....are you still there?
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by HomerPenguin »

PensFanInDC wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/politics/electio ... latestnews
The White House is collecting and storing comments and videos placed on its social-networking sites such as Facebook, Twitter and YouTube without notifying or asking the consent of the site users, a failure that appears to run counter to President Obama's promise of a transparent government and his pledge to protect privacy on the Internet, the Washington Times reported.
All those who were against the Patriot Act before....are you still there?
Yes, we are. I can't help but have a little satisfaction that those who called us terrorist appeasers who wanted Die Heimatland to be destroyed, because we opposed said Patriot Act, now see why granting the government sweeping and unchecked surveillance powers was probably not a good idea.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by HomerPenguin »

PensFanInDC wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:
DelPen wrote:If you wear glasses, how hard is it to function without them?
If eyes were intelligently designed, why would they fail so often that most people need corrective lenses?
When we were created, we were given free will. in use of our free will, we took a big ol bite out of death when we disobeyed God by eating of the forbidden fruit, thus inviting death and decay into our lives. This includes the decay of our human bodies-that begin to die from the day we are born.
When you depart from the realm of rationality, and I don't say that as an insult but the Garden of Eden story is outside that realm, there's really no place to take the discussion at that point. One could engage in what I would view as pointless discussions about what the story says about the deity's supposed omniscience or its supposed infinite love and compassion, but none of those discussions would bring us any closer to rational discourse again.
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by HomerPenguin »

shafnutz05 wrote:don't really know how Gates drinks Red Stripe. That was the only swill they had down in Jamaica and it was absolutely disgusting.
I thought Gates was drinking a Sam Adams. He drank Red Stripe? Did nobody at that table actually drink a decent beer? You're at the frigging White House. They could probably find you any beer on the planet and stock it for your event, and these people are drinking Bud and Red Stripe?

:face:
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Re: LGP Politcal Discussion Thread

Post by pittsoccer33 »

Do you think Taylor Swift will have a Barqs, Dads, or A&W when Obama invites her and Kanye to the White House?