LGP Political Discussion Thread

[doublem]

Doublem, Consider this, "never waste a good crisis is not a theme for change either" That statement was a complete gaff imo and actually seems to be this administrations theme currently and going forward.... Along with create the next crisis that has carried over for several administrations.

I serve up clunkers for cash, a program that has most helped the auto industry at the bottom line. Yet the most sales went to Toyota... After the administration essentially took over most of the american auto industry..... Did anyone really ask why this was needed or how it was going to benefit the country? No, it got ram rodded right through...

A lot of people asked if the bailouts were a good idea, actually it was a very popular opinion. After 9-11, very few questioned authority, and those that did were considered traitors, which led to the war with Iraq, where something like 70% of the population thought Saddam was responsible for 9-11.

[Ron`]

Who were these many people that thought the bailouts were a good idea? There was a tremendous response to the representatives of the legislative branch that said it wasn't. Yet they all sidled down and decided that was the best thing to do despite public opinion. Since they couldn't decide what to do, they just signed off on it without even reading it.

There in lies the problem, we elect people that do not have intellectual capacity or drive to find solutions. They get there through a process that requires they must go with the flow of their party or the majority of their peers ... or fear reprisal in the future...

The stimulous package should be brought back front and forward to address the money that has yet to be spent. But nobody is looking at that, meanwhile all the administrative costs of overseeing it continue to run.....

[doublem]

Who were these many people that thought the bailouts were a good idea? There was a tremendous response to the representatives of the legislative branch that said it wasn't. Yet they all sidled down and decided that was the best thing to do despite public opinion. Since they couldn't decide what to do, they just signed off on it without even reading it.

There in lies the problem, we elect people that do not have intellectual capacity or drive to find solutions. They get there through a process that requires they must go with the flow of their party or the majority of their peers ... or fear reprisal in the future...

The stimulous package should be brought back front and forward to address the money that has yet to be spent. But nobody is looking at that, meanwhile all the administrative costs of overseeing it continue to run.....

A lot of the public did, which was different then after 9-11. I have said before that politicians have no long term vision and that they have run out of ideas, but I think that is a world wide trend not just something that is just in the U.S., so we get caught in these short term windows, ideas are dying, people and politicians have lost faith in any ideas to reshape the world. Francis Fukuyama.a former Neo, con wrote about the end of history after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

What we may be witnessing is not just the end of the Cold War, or the passing of a particular period of post-war history, but the end of history as such: that is, the end point of mankind's ideological evolution and the universalization of Western liberal democracy as the final form of human government."[

The end of history will be a very sad time. The struggle for recognition, the willingness to risk one's life for a purely abstract goal, the worldwide ideological struggle that called forth daring, courage, imagination, and idealism, will be replaced by economic calculation, the endless solving of technical problems, environmental concerns, and the satisfaction of sophisticated consumer demands. In the post-historical period there will be neither art nor philosophy, just the perpetual caretaking of the museum of human history.

Sounds like the 21st century to me.

[cs6687]

Another Nazi, according to Pelosi:
[youtube][/youtube]

[doublem]

Another Nazi, according to Pelosi:
[youtube][/youtube]

The Nazi's were fascists, I don't know who would disagree agree with that, so I don't really know what he means by the left. Who is doing what with this guys child, and what was his point again? I think someone does need educated.

[Ron`]

Doublem, he's concerned with what his children are being taught, not just by the education system, but by the actions of our leaders.... That's my take on it.

The Nazi stuff is related back to Nancy Pelosi's comments implying that anyone that opposes their actions is a complete right winger, radical or Nazi. This recieved much media coverage, both promoting the belief and also commenting on the disbelief that it was factual. Never mind that it was another gaff made by Pelosi either way..... She should be married to Joe Biden, a match made in public spokes person heaven..... That comment alone stirred up more opposition to their proposals than any organized movement.... Probably closed the door on a complete sweep through the legislative branch.....A reverse polarization technique undoing any chance for quick success.

[doublem]

Doublem, he's concerned with what his children are being taught, not just by the education system, but by the actions of our leaders.... That's my take on it.

The Nazi stuff is related back to Nancy Pelosi's comments implying that anyone that opposes their actions is a complete right winger, radical or Nazi. This recieved much media coverage, both promoting the belief and also commenting on the disbelief that it was factual. Never mind that it was another gaff made by Pelosi either way..... She should be married to Joe Biden, a match made in public spokes person heaven..... That comment alone stirred up more opposition to their proposals than any organized movement.... Probably closed the door on a complete sweep through the legislative branch.....A reverse polarization technique undoing any chance for quick success.

Well, he should be concerned about what his kids education, but it sounded to me as if this guy thought, the politicians were trying to get him to join a cult or something, and if this guy is really worried about his kids education then maybe he shouldn't turn on the news because there is a lot of misinformation out there that brainwashes people. Pelosi called some guy a Nazi, this guy called her a Nazi, I'm just sick of the melodrama everyone in this country does when ever there is a camera around.

[Ron`]

Doublem, she boofed that whole thing up, there is no denial of that fact. Whether you believe they were nazi's, organized, right wing, or wack jobs period. That alone did tremendous damage to any proposal going forward and likely cannot be recovered from.... She may have single handedly ended this steam roller through the legislative branch by the administration....

[doublem]

Doublem, she boofed that whole thing up, there is no denial of that fact. Whether you believe they were nazi's, organized, right wing, or wack jobs period. That alone did tremendous damage to any proposal going forward and likely cannot be recovered from.... She may have single handedly ended this steam roller through the legislative branch by the administration....

I don't know if that is true. How do you even know if there was ever going to be a public option? What evidence do you have that Pelosi comments mattered? What did she even say that was that outrageous? From the looks of it, it was all talk to start. Why should her comments be any different in the sea of disinformation then someone saying death panels are real?

Is this what you are talking about?

[youtube][/youtube]

[Ron`]

Where did we go from the speaking gaff to a "public option" discussion? At this point they could have any legit option, but public support is gone.... They are fed up, riled up and recognize that fiscally we cannot afford to tackle this. The majority party is just hoping this storm passes now, that the economy turns, so they can rally again before the next elections.

[Bob McKenzie]

I think doublem is either sidewinder or a relative of his with the "What evidence do you have questions..."

[Guinness]

Another Nazi, according to Pelosi:
[youtube][/youtube]

The Nazi's were fascists, I don't know who would disagree agree with that, so I don't really know what he means by the left. Who is doing what with this guys child, and what was his point again? I think someone does need educated.

Lemme guess... that little socialist-fascist slide-rule you're referring to was given to you by your public school teacher, huh?

[doublem]

Where did we go from the speaking gaff to a "public option" discussion? At this point they could have any legit option, but public support is gone.... They are fed up, riled up and recognize that fiscally we cannot afford to tackle this. The majority party is just hoping this storm passes now, that the economy turns, so they can rally again before the next elections.

People don't know what is going on with this health care debate. I don't know how you can say Nancy Pelosi saying that really had any effect on anything. I think the misinformation out there, and the lack of politic support, not public support is the problem. The American people have an attention span of about two weeks, so it will be forgotten anyways. Politicians say stupid things all the time and usually it doesn't matter, why is this any different? This is a country that thought before the Iraq War that Saddam was in on 9-11. When I hear people at these town halls, I hear them say things, like "I want my country back, and get government hands off Medicare".

Here is poll done by the New York Times: http://masbury.wordpress.com/2009/06/21 ... ealthcare/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[doublem]

Another Nazi, according to Pelosi:
[youtube][/youtube]

The Nazi's were fascists, I don't know who would disagree agree with that, so I don't really know what he means by the left. Who is doing what with this guys child, and what was his point again? I think someone does need educated.

Lemme guess... that little socialist-fascist slide-rule you're referring to was given to you by your public school teacher, huh?

Not really, what educated person thinks the Nazi's were to the left? The Nazi's were not communists, though I don't think it really matters what there ideology was. This guy is trying to connect that since the American government is running car companies that we are on our way to what the Nazi's did.

[Guinness]

Not really, what educated person thinks the Nazi's were to the left? The Nazi's were not communists, though I don't think it really matters what there ideology was. This guy is trying to connect that since the American government is running car companies that we are on our way to what the Nazi's did.

I think that the Nazis were to the left...

I guess it all depends on what you consider "left" and "right". The National Socialists were rabid statists, as with the Communists. There is no "individual" in National Socialist ideology or in Communist ideology. The individual is merely a cog in the state. Where the Nazis dictated to corporations, the Communists simply took them over. Splitting hairs there, really. Nazis had the whole racism thing, which really helps modern leftists disown them, though. Although given that racism is a form of collectivism, it really has been a feat of rhetorical contortionism.

On a continuum between true individual liberty and slavery, anarchy is to the right, and statism is to the left. Nazis and Commies are leftists. I consider myself -- in the left/right paradigm I've just described -- to be just to the right of anarchism, philosophically; and a constitutionalist practically.

[bh]

Where did we go from the speaking gaff to a "public option" discussion? At this point they could have any legit option, but public support is gone.... They are fed up, riled up and recognize that fiscally we cannot afford to tackle this. The majority party is just hoping this storm passes now, that the economy turns, so they can rally again before the next elections.

People don't know what is going on with this health care debate. I don't know how you can say Nancy Pelosi saying that really had any effect on anything. I think the misinformation out there, and the lack of politic support, not public support is the problem. The American people have an attention span of about two weeks, so it will be forgotten anyways. Politicians say stupid things all the time and usually it doesn't matter, why is this any different? This is a country that thought before the Iraq War that Saddam was in on 9-11. When I hear people at these town halls, I hear them say things, like "I want my country back, and get government hands off Medicare".

Here is poll done by the New York Times: http://masbury.wordpress.com/2009/06/21 ... ealthcare/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

doublem what is that poll supposed to show. I'm not sure where the times got their numbers but they don't gyve with the other major polls out there.

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/summing_u ... h_care.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The bill lacks political support because it lacks public support. Many a congressman is worried about their seat. I also think that there is less misinformation out there than you think. You have a problem with people opposing this bill on philosophical or economic grounds. People can oppose these bill without being misinformed. People spouting nonsense at these town halls is no different that politicians saying stupid things. People will say what they will to try and help their side of the cause.

[Bob McKenzie]

Not really, what educated person thinks the Nazi's were to the left? The Nazi's were not communists, though I don't think it really matters what there ideology was. This guy is trying to connect that since the American government is running car companies that we are on our way to what the Nazi's did.

I think that the Nazis were to the left...

I guess it all depends on what you consider "left" and "right". The National Socialists were rabid statists, as with the Communists. There is no "individual" in National Socialist ideology or in Communist ideology. The individual is merely a cog in the state. Where the Nazis dictated to corporations, the Communists simply took them over. Splitting hairs there, really. Nazis had the whole racism thing, which really helps modern leftists disown them, though. Although given that racism is a form of collectivism, it really has been a feat of rhetorical contortionism.

On a continuum between true individual liberty and slavery, anarchy is to the right, and statism is to the left. Nazis and Commies are leftists. I consider myself -- in the left/right paradigm I've just described -- to be just to the right of anarchism, philosophically; and a constitutionalist practically.

What evidence do you have the Nazis were to the left?

[doublem]

Not really, what educated person thinks the Nazi's were to the left? The Nazi's were not communists, though I don't think it really matters what there ideology was. This guy is trying to connect that since the American government is running car companies that we are on our way to what the Nazi's did.

I think that the Nazis were to the left...

I guess it all depends on what you consider "left" and "right". The National Socialists were rabid statists, as with the Communists. There is no "individual" in National Socialist ideology or in Communist ideology. The individual is merely a cog in the state. Where the Nazis dictated to corporations, the Communists simply took them over. Splitting hairs there, really. Nazis had the whole racism thing, which really helps modern leftists disown them, though. Although given that racism is a form of collectivism, it really has been a feat of rhetorical contortionism.

On a continuum between true individual liberty and slavery, anarchy is to the right, and statism is to the left. Nazis and Commies are leftists. I consider myself -- in the left/right paradigm I've just described -- to be just to the right of anarchism, philosophically; and a constitutionalist practically.

It's impossible to have debates if words are constantly going to be redefined. I talking about how tradition left-right have been determined since the French Revolution. Of course there are exceptions, but it is generally been thought that the Nazi's learned toward the right, in terms of most of there policies.

[doublem]

Where did we go from the speaking gaff to a "public option" discussion? At this point they could have any legit option, but public support is gone.... They are fed up, riled up and recognize that fiscally we cannot afford to tackle this. The majority party is just hoping this storm passes now, that the economy turns, so they can rally again before the next elections.

People don't know what is going on with this health care debate. I don't know how you can say Nancy Pelosi saying that really had any effect on anything. I think the misinformation out there, and the lack of politic support, not public support is the problem. The American people have an attention span of about two weeks, so it will be forgotten anyways. Politicians say stupid things all the time and usually it doesn't matter, why is this any different? This is a country that thought before the Iraq War that Saddam was in on 9-11. When I hear people at these town halls, I hear them say things, like "I want my country back, and get government hands off Medicare".

Here is poll done by the New York Times: http://masbury.wordpress.com/2009/06/21 ... ealthcare/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

doublem what is that poll supposed to show. I'm not sure where the times got their numbers but they don't gyve with the other major polls out there.

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/summing_u ... h_care.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The bill lacks political support because it lacks public support. Many a congressman is worried about their seat. I also think that there is less misinformation out there than you think. You have a problem with people opposing this bill on philosophical or economic grounds. People can oppose these bill without being misinformed. People spouting nonsense at these town halls is no different that politicians saying stupid things. People will say what they will to try and help their side of the cause.

You think the problem is the public when the white house signed a 150 million dollar deal with Pharma? The bill lacks support and most likely won't get passed not becasue the people are mad, but becasue insurance companies are pulling the strings. Didn't you hear the dems say that they never had enough support to get a bill passed. I really don't care if people oppose the bill, they can oppose it on there philosophical grounds, just like I have mine, but don't act like the people have much of a voice in this.

[doublem]

Not really, what educated person thinks the Nazi's were to the left? The Nazi's were not communists, though I don't think it really matters what there ideology was. This guy is trying to connect that since the American government is running car companies that we are on our way to what the Nazi's did.

I think that the Nazis were to the left...

I guess it all depends on what you consider "left" and "right". The National Socialists were rabid statists, as with the Communists. There is no "individual" in National Socialist ideology or in Communist ideology. The individual is merely a cog in the state. Where the Nazis dictated to corporations, the Communists simply took them over. Splitting hairs there, really. Nazis had the whole racism thing, which really helps modern leftists disown them, though. Although given that racism is a form of collectivism, it really has been a feat of rhetorical contortionism.

On a continuum between true individual liberty and slavery, anarchy is to the right, and statism is to the left. Nazis and Commies are leftists. I consider myself -- in the left/right paradigm I've just described -- to be just to the right of anarchism, philosophically; and a constitutionalist practically.

What evidence do you have the Nazis were to the left?

That is how people determine the truth, based on evidence.

[Bob McKenzie]

What evidence do you have the Nazis were to the left?

That is how people determine the truth, based on evidence.

I don't dispute that. What I find hilarious is that when people don't agree with your viewpoint, you are always firing questions back at them about "what evidence do they have?"

What evidence do you have? If someone doesn't agree with your point, it's easy to point the finger on them and ask what evidence they have on why their point is right. I haven't seen you provide anything worthwhile to be called "evidence."

[doublem]

What evidence do you have the Nazis were to the left?

That is how people determine the truth, based on evidence.

I don't dispute that. What I find hilarious is that when people don't agree with your viewpoint, you are always firing questions back at them about "what evidence do they have?"

What evidence do you have? If someone doesn't agree with your point, it's easy to point the finger on them and ask what evidence they have on why their point is right. I haven't seen you provide anything worthwhile to be called "evidence."

I posted a poll by the New York times.

[Bob McKenzie]

That is how people determine the truth, based on evidence.

I don't dispute that. What I find hilarious is that when people don't agree with your viewpoint, you are always firing questions back at them about "what evidence do they have?"

What evidence do you have? If someone doesn't agree with your point, it's easy to point the finger on them and ask what evidence they have on why their point is right. I haven't seen you provide anything worthwhile to be called "evidence."

I posted a poll by the New York times.

Yes. One poll posted makes up for probably the 10 times you've asked people in this thread for "evidence."

[Guinness]

It's impossible to have debates if words are constantly going to be redefined. I talking about how tradition left-right have been determined since the French Revolution. Of course there are exceptions, but it is generally been thought that the Nazi's learned toward the right, in terms of most of there policies.

Well, I guess it stands to ask what utility there is in a political spectrum that casts *relatively* similar philosophies at opposing poles? Your argument in favor of the "traditional" spectrum reminds me of a talk radio host I once heard who defended the calling of Nazis as "right-wing" on the grounds that that was how he learned it in college and that's how it's always been.

How different are national socialists and communists? Both advocate total state control. The National Socialists did advocate a racial component (tho' it was unique to the German brand, I believe), but it's clear that racism is a collectivist ideology, which is the dominant theme of communism. Communism is generally international in it's scope, while National Socialism focuses on a single state, but that's also splitting hairs. Both ideologies do not believe in the superiority of the individual person, which leads to all manner of mechanisms, such as a police-state apparatus, command economies (albeit with superficial differences), etc.

I'm belaboring this point because you found it convenient to paint this man who spoke, using words that another politician first brought into the discussion, mind you, as "uneducated", essentially, simply because he apparently had the the independence of mind to re-examine the "traditional" political spectrum. He didn't "redefine" anything -- he accurately described Nazism.

[HomerPenguin]

I had sworn off these threads for good, but this is drawing me back in briefly.

Well, I guess it stands to ask what utility there is in a political spectrum that casts *relatively* similar philosophies at opposing poles?

How similar are fascism and communism ("little c" communism, not the perversion of it that appeared in the post-Stalin USSR)? One ultimately proposes to force complete social equality while the other is rooted in social Darwinism. One eliminates corporations and private property while the other forms a strong alliance with private enterprise in which the government exerts great control over business but business gets very rich in the process. Fascists have no interest in running their enterprises in the name of forced equity or collectivism the way a communist government would. These aren't that similar.

Your argument in favor of the "traditional" spectrum reminds me of a talk radio host I once heard who defended the calling of Nazis as "right-wing" on the grounds that that was how he learned it in college and that's how it's always been.

Yes, the placement of fascism on "the right" has never been fully accurate. It works in the context of traditional European and American politics, where you've got statists at both ends of the spectrum--economic on the one end and social/corporate/theological at the other. If we're talking about a continuum from most to least, Fascism in some respects defies placement; economically, it argues against both collectivism and laissez-faire capitalism, so it could be called centrist. On the other hand, the "survival of the fittest" social dogma at its core is clearly more right than left, on the traditional political spectrum and even on your newly made-up one:

On a continuum between true individual liberty and slavery, anarchy is to the right, and statism is to the left. Nazis and Commies are leftists.

Nazi social policy was a lot closer to anarchy than to forced equality. They simply helped along what they assumed would play out anyway.

Applying terms that already have traditional connotations, like "left" and "right," to a continuum that you created and then treating your new definition of those terms as the traditionally correct one is a little misleading. I could just as easily flip your continuum around so that anarchy is on the left, in which case ZOMG you're a leftie. What purpose does that serve? It doesn't enhance anyone's ability to discuss these issues.

I'm belaboring this point because you found it convenient to paint this man who spoke, using words that another politician first brought into the discussion, mind you, as "uneducated", essentially, simply because he apparently had the the independence of mind to re-examine the "traditional" political spectrum. He didn't "redefine" anything -- he accurately described Nazism.

He accurately described aspects of Nazism, but not the whole thing. I'd like to know how he feels about a health care bill that mandates individual purchase of private insurance with government subsidies for the poor, because that's closer to fascism than the "public option," and that's likely to be what we get.