LGP Political Discussion Thread

[Ron`]

[quote="pittsoccer33"]But they keep telling us those are isolated incidents, exagerations by the media and by big insurance and so forth.

Here's a great article on the mess by Peggy Noonan, one of my favorite commentators:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 63340.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[quote]She makes some great points. The government instituted and sold social security to the masses as a retirement blanket for the common constituent as he aged. Then they raided it every year for it's excess, spent it like it was complete slush fund, meanwhile as it was funded by those working.... They also sold Medicare and Medicade as a public health net and missmanaged them into a what appears to be complete fiscal bankruptcy by any man's terms. Now they want to take the whole ball of wax and provide for the public, cost savings will just pour in....

Come on, ask those that went before us how well this type of aim has ever ended....

[Guinness]

I don't have a problem with this.

Do you have a problem with warrants?

Nor do I have a problem with wiretapes on my own phone line if the are truely in the interests of national security.... as I said once before, 911 was a culture shock world wide... A war that will never know the boundaries of things we have seen in the past... I'm not sure anyone has their arms around this yet internationally, but it's a real problem as it's driven by pure a desire to just inflict chaos, not a desire for some economic, ideologic or colonialist belief ..... Could be and likely is seated in haves, vs have nots and suppressed individual beliefs and nations.

You know what, Ron`? I don't have a problem with them tapping your line either, if they have probable cause and made their case before an impartial judge. But that's just me, I guess. I believe in your rights... even if you don't.

[Ron`]

Nor do I have a problem with wiretapes on my own phone line if the are truely in the interests of national security.... as I said once before, 911 was a culture shock world wide... A war that will never know the boundaries of things we have seen in the past... I'm not sure anyone has their arms around this yet internationally, but it's a real problem as it's driven by pure a desire to just inflict chaos, not a desire for some economic, ideologic or colonialist belief ..... Could be and likely is seated in haves, vs have nots and suppressed individual beliefs and nations.

You know what, Ron`? I don't have a problem with them tapping your line either, if they have probable cause and made their case before an impartial judge. But that's just me, I guess. I believe in your rights... even if you don't.

They probably already are and I don't fear it... I fear fiscal irresponsibility much more....

[Guinness]

They probably already are and I don't fear it... I fear fiscal irresponsibility much more....

I don't "fear" it, either. I'm not breaking any of their laws, at the moment, at least. But what about when their laws grow, as their fiscal irresponsibility via bloated, ambiguously contrived "social programs" always - almost like a law, or force of nature - do? What about when your seemingly innocent behavior becomes the target of their interest? And your privacy, property, and liberty are truly, imminently at stake?

[Ron`]

They probably already are and I don't fear it... I fear fiscal irresponsibility much more....

I don't "fear" it, either. I'm not breaking any of their laws, at the moment, at least. But what about when their laws grow, as their fiscal irresponsibility via bloated, ambiguously contrived "social programs" always - almost like a law, or force of nature - do? What about when your seemingly innocent behavior becomes the target of their interest? And your privacy, property, and liberty are truly, imminently at stake?

Then we have a real problem, let's not cloud the current issues with something that doesn't really exist....

[Guinness]

They probably already are and I don't fear it... I fear fiscal irresponsibility much more....

I don't "fear" it, either. I'm not breaking any of their laws, at the moment, at least. But what about when their laws grow, as their fiscal irresponsibility via bloated, ambiguously contrived "social programs" always - almost like a law, or force of nature - do? What about when your seemingly innocent behavior becomes the target of their interest? And your privacy, property, and liberty are truly, imminently at stake?

Then we have a real problem, let's not cloud the current issues with something that doesn't really exist....

Sure. Why not wait for the bottom to fall out instead of doing something to prevent it? Not to mention the gross violation of your liberty...

[PensFanInDC]

Mike Huckabee is the MAN!!

http://www.huckpac.com/?Fuseaction=Blog ... og_id=2781

[youtube][/youtube]

[Ron`]

Sure. Why not wait for the bottom to fall out instead of doing something to prevent it? Not to mention the gross violation of your liberty...

Actually we are in total agreement, we just have different perspectives on what the current threat is. Fiscal responsiblity is out of control in my opinion... more so than violating your civil liberties.....

[Guinness]

Sure. Why not wait for the bottom to fall out instead of doing something to prevent it? Not to mention the gross violation of your liberty...

Actually we are in total agreement, we just have different perspectives on what the current threat is. Fiscal responsiblity is out of control in my opinion... more so than violating your civil liberties.....

I see them as two guns holstered on a single set of hips.

I think you would enjoy this article. I recommend it to all who labor under the illusion that the United States of America is still a functioning Republic.

[Ron`]

Sure. Why not wait for the bottom to fall out instead of doing something to prevent it? Not to mention the gross violation of your liberty...

Actually we are in total agreement, we just have different perspectives on what the current threat is. Fiscal responsiblity is out of control in my opinion... more so than violating your civil liberties.....

I see them as two guns holstered on a single set of hips.

I think you would enjoy this article. I recommend it to all who labor under the illusion that the United States of America is still a functioning Republic.

Pretty good, liked this part...
"Now, in the name of democracy, it is accepted as a political fact that people are the responsibility of government. The forms of republican government survive; the character of the state has changed. Formerly the people supported government and set limits to it and minded their own lives.

Now they pay for unlimited government, whether they want it or not, and the government minds their lives — looking to how they are fed and clothed and housed; how they provide for their old age; how the national income, which is the product of their own labor, shall be divided among them; how they shall buy and sell; how long and how hard and under what conditions they shall work, and how equity shall be maintained between the buyers of food who dwell in the cities and the producers of food who live on the soil. For the last named purpose it resorts to a system of subsidies, penalties and compulsions, and assumes with medieval wisdom to fix the just price.

This is the Welfare State. It rose suddenly within the form. It is legal because the Supreme Court says it is. The Supreme Court once said no and then changed its mind and said yes, because meanwhile the President who was the architect of the Welfare State had appointed to the Supreme Court bench men who believed in it."

[DelPen]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtex ... =h111-2520" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The next time you hear Obama say the Republicans are blocking the passage of a bill that wouldn't require a single Republican to vote for it to still pass and that they have no plan just read the above link. It's a different bill in the House sponsored by Republicans. Glancing through it the main points appear to be sending grants to the States, as opposed to the federal government directly managing things, to help needy people no more than twice the poverty level and also help establish health courts where lawsuits will be heard to help tort reform. It also looks to fix some issues in medicare.

Essentially this attempts to fix much of what is wrong with US health care instead of compounding the problems with the Deomcrat plan.

[Ron`]

If anyone doubts the fiscal problem....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32513705/ns ... hite_house" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[doublem]

Isn't the only answer now to raise taxes?

[Guinness]

Isn't the only answer now to raise taxes?

No, it's not. That's what is so ironic about you... you love to prattle on about rights when it comes to civil liberties, then you gleefully encourage the confiscation of people's labor.

The only answer now is to realize that government is broken because it is too big, and it's not time to try to make it bigger... it's time to cut taxes - in fact it's time to repeal the 16th Amendment altogether. It's time to let people enjoy their rights endowed to them by nature.

[Guinness]

Pretty good, liked this part...
"Now, in the name of democracy, it is accepted as a political fact that people are the responsibility of government. The forms of republican government survive; the character of the state has changed. Formerly the people supported government and set limits to it and minded their own lives.

Now they pay for unlimited government, whether they want it or not, and the government minds their lives — looking to how they are fed and clothed and housed; how they provide for their old age; how the national income, which is the product of their own labor, shall be divided among them; how they shall buy and sell; how long and how hard and under what conditions they shall work, and how equity shall be maintained between the buyers of food who dwell in the cities and the producers of food who live on the soil. For the last named purpose it resorts to a system of subsidies, penalties and compulsions, and assumes with medieval wisdom to fix the just price.

This is the Welfare State. It rose suddenly within the form. It is legal because the Supreme Court says it is. The Supreme Court once said no and then changed its mind and said yes, because meanwhile the President who was the architect of the Welfare State had appointed to the Supreme Court bench men who believed in it."

Very good. The article was written nearly 60 years ago and yet it still rings true... and stands as evidence of the subtly pervasive nature of government. The Constitution is nothing but a piece of parchment without a population willing to abide by it.

[doublem]

Isn't the only answer now to raise taxes?

No, it's not. That's what is so ironic about you... you love to prattle on about rights when it comes to civil liberties, then you gleefully encourage the confiscation of people's labor.

The only answer now is to realize that government is broken because it is too big, and it's not time to try to make it bigger... it's time to cut taxes - in fact it's time to repeal the 16th Amendment altogether. It's time to let people enjoy their rights endowed to them by nature.

I don't feel like getting into a tax discussion with you, but are you for the fair tax?

[Guinness]

I don't feel like getting into a tax discussion with you, but are you for the fair tax?

I'm sure you don't...

No, I'm not. I'm for -- as I said -- the repeal of the 16th Amendment, which rightly or wrongly (no need to get into that debate) the government uses to justify the income tax. Income tax is a method of slavery (not chattel slavery, obviously) -- where slavery is defined as forced labor... what else is an income tax, then? Over one-third of my labor is not negotiated. It is confiscated before it even reaches me. It is immoral and should be opposed by all who believe in human rights.

[dagny]

This is the question that needs answered. There should be no belief. There is a reality and it operates outside belief. If they are wrong, it is because reality does not mirror their belief. Some ways are better than others and the point of debate is to share our collective knowledge and try and find the better ways to go about solving these types of problems. There are a lot of good arguments of both sides doublem, and if there was overwhelming evidence that one particular way was better than another, this debate would not have gone 28+ pages. I tend to feel that a free markey solution would be the way to go, but like most things in life, there is no 100% certainty.

There are a list of thoughts in this thread that almost all here actually agree on:
1) Everyone in this thread realizes that the system has major problems and could be much better.
2) Most here are against this particular bill because they do not think it will address the actual problems and is basically a hand out to the insurance industry.
3) Everybody wants to help their fellow human beings but have widely differing views on how to go about that.

Other than that there are a lot of good points on both sides as to what *should* be done.

Excellent post!

1 and 2 are good. But #3 has got to be a typo. No one really believes that some pharmaceutical corporation, or some rich white dude who owns a bank, wants to actually help people. These folks are only interested in sucking you dry out every penny you've got. I think this became obvious in the last 10 or 15 years. At least for me, since I started looking at this stuff.

I took his point number 3 to refer to the people discussing the topic in this thread, as his points 1 and 2 did.

[Guinness]

Single-payer sounds awwwwwesome...

[doublem]

The politics of fear is the only thing that the politicians have left, and they are doing it again with the health care debate.
The Power of Nightmares

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... id=topnews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Geezer]

The politics of fear is the only thing that the politicians have left, and they are doing it again with the health care debate.
The Power of Nightmares

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... id=topnews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pols have plenty left besides the politics of fear left. They have the politics of misspending taxpayers money and politics of illegal lobbying are still around. The Emails Axelrod sent out are also supposedly banned(WH making direct pitches to citizens via email)
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08 ... th-reform/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The politics of greed and payoffs is still around. Axelrod's former firm has been given lucrative contracts by this administration. The Change so far is who's geting yheir pockets lined and who's breaking the rules.

[doublem]

The politics of fear is the only thing that the politicians have left, and they are doing it again with the health care debate.
The Power of Nightmares

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... id=topnews" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pols have plenty left besides the politics of fear left. They have the politics of misspending taxpayers money and politics of illegal lobbying are still around. The Emails Axelrod sent out are also supposedly banned(WH making direct pitches to citizens via email)
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08 ... th-reform/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The politics of greed and payoffs is still around. Axelrod's former firm has been given lucrative contracts by this administration. The Change so far is who's geting yheir pockets lined and who's breaking the rules.

But don't you think it is a real problem when politicians tell us we should be afraid of unseen forces that are to hard for us to understand, this is all that has been happening since 9-11, they tell us to be afraid of the dark, without any evidence of anything, just be afraid and don't question. The same thing is happening with Health care, death panels, illegals, abortions, it is using people's feelings to control them, the politicians have run out of ideas, so the only thing they have left is fear. This shows that the Bush Administration cared only about getting reelected on societies fear of the unknown.

[Ron`]

Unfortunately I felt bad and removed you from my ignore list doublem. Since you were officially the first person ever on it except for testing.

I say you can't blame everything on the last administration. Say what you want, but no matter who is in power in the executive branch there are checks and balances built into the system. The legislative branch signed off on most of the last administrations gaffs, believe it or not.

In fact you should be placing blame on the usual suspects that have been continually re-elected to the legislative branches... blame the american public for not understanding where the most damaging policy is made and voting on recogniton only, for those that have classically brought home the bacon to their areas... PA is probably one of the worst in this area with Mr. Spector, Mr. Murtha and Mr. Kanajawarski etc..... Pure stupidity in voting once you pass the presidential vote runs rampant, along with decadent political corruption through out this state. It's been that way as long as I have been alive....

[doublem]

Unfortunately I felt bad and removed you from my ignore list doublem. Since you were officially the first person ever on it except for testing.

I say you can't blame everything on the last administration. Say what you want, but no matter who is in power in the executive branch there are checks and balances built into the system. The legislative branch signed off on most of the last administrations gaffs, believe it or not.

In fact you should be placing blame on the usual suspects that have been continually re-elected to the legislative branches... blame the american public for not understanding where the most damaging policy is made and voting on recogniton only, for those that have classically brought home the bacon to their areas... PA is probably one of the worst in this area with Mr. Spector, Mr. Murtha and Mr. Kanajawarski etc..... Pure stupidity in voting once you pass the presidential vote runs rampant, along with decadent political corruption through out this state. It's been that way as long as I have been alive....

They have there problems, but there has never been an administration in recent memory that used fear as a tool for a political cause. It did work for a while I will give them credit for that, they even brought the American people together for a time, to bad they brought us together to be afraid.

[Ron`]

Doublem, Consider this, "never waste a good crisis is not a theme for change either" That statement was a complete gaff imo and actually seems to be this administrations theme currently and going forward.... Along with create the next crisis that has carried over for several administrations.

I serve up clunkers for cash, a program that has most helped the auto industry at the bottom line. Yet the most sales went to Toyota... After the administration essentially took over most of the american auto industry..... Did anyone really ask why this was needed or how it was going to benefit the country? No, it got ram rodded right through...