LGP Political Discussion Thread

[Ron`]

No, they don't, the constitution and bill of rights are universal documents applied to all people. America does not torture, it does not hold people in camps for years without trail, those are universal rights, they are pointless if they only apply to people lucky enough to be born on our soil. Plus, they wiretapped American citizens.

First sentence of the Constitution: We the People of the United States.

i think he meant the decleration of independance: "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

And no where in there does it say shelter, food and health care. Those are all ideals which we as people strive for as individuals and help others when we personally can. To expect that is now the norm, from the government... A complete social disaster.

[doublem]

doublem, I'll write Obama and tell him to send the Gitmo detainees to your home.

A federal prison would do, and why can't they go there again?

The second you start putting these guys on US soil in federal prison is the day you invite the holy war to come to the US. All the suicide bombers and plans for mass attacks will then be focused on taking place within the US to make a major statement.

I don't know about you but I don't want these guys on US soil.

Come on, do you really believe that? Do you really think they are going to "follow us home". What evidence do you have that any of that will happen? They can barely get enough support in the Middle East, let only in the U.S.

[Ron`]

Good article. As a perinatologist, I hear all the time about how poorly we rank in infant mortality, but as the article points out, every country calculates infant mortality differently, and in the US, if it's born alive, it counts, even if it is of a pre-viable gestational age. Most consider viability to be about 24 weeks gestation, between 23 and 24 weeks is sort of a gray zone. But a kid is born at 16 weeks with a heartbeat, it counts in our statistics, regardless of the fact that it is 2 months from potential viability. Most countries do not do this. Comparing apples to oranges, as a result, it looks like our care is poor when it is not.

Thank you for this post, it positively shows how brown numbers can totally skew public opinion. How you account for anything can be skewed completely by the criteria, much like the current unemployment rates are way off..

[Ron`]

All of this begs the question, how can the efficacy of a health care system be measured?

I don't know if there is a reliable way. It certainly is not as simple as looking at 2 numbers, infant mortality and life expectancy but those are frequently quoted statistics that are used to make the point that our care is substandard. I was merely making the point that we are criticized for our low ranking in infant mortality, but the way that this is calculated in the US falsely elevates our numbers compared to most countries.

Thank you again....

[Ron`]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090819/ap_ ... onsultants

several consulting/marketing firms tied to the white house are making millions off the healthcare debate. I have no problem with this, but I assume everyone who thinks we went to war in Iraq to make Dick Cheney and Halliburton rich should be livid.

Ignore that, it's not on Wikipedia yet.....

[doublem]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090819/ap_ ... onsultants

several consulting/marketing firms tied to the white house are making millions off the healthcare debate. I have no problem with this, but I assume everyone who thinks we went to war in Iraq to make Dick Cheney and Halliburton rich should be livid.

You don't have a problem with this? It is corporatism at it's finest. Don't you think it will undermine democracy, maybe?

[Bob McKenzie]

A federal prison would do, and why can't they go there again?

The second you start putting these guys on US soil in federal prison is the day you invite the holy war to come to the US. All the suicide bombers and plans for mass attacks will then be focused on taking place within the US to make a major statement.

I don't know about you but I don't want these guys on US soil.

Come on, do you really believe that? Do you really think they are going to "follow us home". What evidence do you have that any of that will happen? They can barely get enough support in the Middle East, let only in the U.S.

In February 2006 one member of a password-protected jihadist forum mused about an attack he believed could result in the deaths of thousands. Posting pictures of Texas Stadium and explosives, he described how such an attack could be carried out, explaining, "One of the suiciders will execute the explosions in one of the stadium corners. When the people are rushing and dashing to flee, another brother will explode himself at one of the gates. This only will kill hundreds on the spot, but the goal is not to kill hundreds only. This goal is to kill thousands."

Web forums buzz constantly with talk of weapons of mass destruction--chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear. In August 2005 one jihadist posted a map of the Washington, D.C. Metro and recommended, "A heavy congested rush of people is in the Metro Center station between eight and nine in the morning. The attack with explosives will cause great losses among the American citizens, but I believe that chemical weapons will lead to achieve amazing results." In early 2005 some of Irhabi007's virtual associates secretly communicated on a jihadist forum to plan a spectacular attack at Naval Station Mayport, a U.S. Navy base in Jacksonville, Fla. The plot, which was to be filmed from multiple angles, involved utilizing several car bombs, as well as rocket-propelled grenades. Those organizing the plot claimed to have 45 people dedicated to the attack, including an American pilot in the U.S. Air Force and three American women who converted to Islam after Sept. 11. Whether the plot ever progressed past the initial planning stages is unclear; some of the organizers were arrested shortly after the online discussions.

We can't take too much comfort from the fact that these particular schemes were thwarted. The plans live on. Once an idea enters cyberspace, it exists indefinitely within the online jihadist community. Any terrorist can take a proposed target or tactic and pick up the plan where a captured terrorist left off.

http://members.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0507/184a.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We have nothing to worry about.

[Ron`]

In times of crisis or war, civil liberties have always been restricted or infringed upon to a great extent. That's just the way it is for self preservation of the nation. I doubt any of your elders that were around for the last real world war would deny that fact. But hey, they are just crazy old kooks living in a cave.... Never mind they are the reason we still exist as a nation, along with keeping most of Europe free then and since.

Please ask and you will find out why there is severe opposition to spending more money for another program that will collapse in the future.... They have been around to see all the false promises in the past by the government. They won't be around much longer to ask either.

[JoseCuervo]

First sentence of the Constitution: We the People of the United States.

i think he meant the decleration of independance: "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"

And no where in there does it say shelter, food and health care. Those are all ideals which we as people strive for as individuals and help others when we personally can. To expect that is now the norm, from the government... A complete social disaster.

yep. While we are all created equal, we don't all equally contribute.

[pittsoccer33]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090819/ap_ ... onsultants

several consulting/marketing firms tied to the white house are making millions off the healthcare debate. I have no problem with this, but I assume everyone who thinks we went to war in Iraq to make Dick Cheney and Halliburton rich should be livid.

You don't have a problem with this? It is corporatism at it's finest. Don't you think it will undermine democracy, maybe?

I have no problem with corporations. I work for one, a very large and prestigious one infact. I am part owner in it and in several others, so I'd like to see them do well. They exist for one reason, to provide me with profit/generate wealth, not to provide people jobs.

Someday, as a result, I might even lose my job. I probably wont be happy if that happens, but I would understand the logic behind it and I'll gladly move on to the next challenge in life.

I cannot think of anything that can generate wealth as rapidly as a large corporation. Wealth is what empowers people and creates prosperity.

And corporations are not taking over the country. US Healthcare and Highmark aren't ready to vote these marxists out of office, their constituents are. Glenn Beck goes a little off the reservation this week and advertisers can't pull out of his show fast enough. They take their orders from the same people the politicians do, the american people.

[doublem]

And? Should we wiretape Americans and undo half the bill of rights becasue of this? Terrorism is a threat and that is why we have people working to find these people and arrest them.I remember Tim Mckevey blowing up a building, how are they any different, terrorism has been around forever, should we give up on the rule of law? If we do then then we don't deserve to have it at all.

[doublem]

And corporations are not taking over the country. US Healthcare and Highmark aren't ready to vote these marxists out of office, their constituents are. Glenn Beck goes a little off the reservation this week and advertisers can't pull out of his show fast enough. They take their orders from the same people the politicians do, the american people

They aren't? When the white house works out a deal with Phamra for over 150 million to support health care, what is that? Is this the same American people that think Obama isn't a citizen, death panels are real, that the world is 6k years old, believe it is likely that Saddam Hussein was involved personally in the 9/11 terrorist attacks.? You really think major corporations care what the American people think about? They don't even care about America, if they could make money anywhere else in the world they would.

[doublem]

In times of crisis or war, civil liberties have always been restricted or infringed upon to a great extent. That's just the way it is for self preservation of the nation. I doubt any of your elders that were around for the last real world war would deny that fact. But hey, they are just crazy old kooks living in a cave.... Never mind they are the reason we still exist as a nation, along with keeping most of Europe free then and since.

Please ask and you will find out why there is severe opposition to spending more money for another program that will collapse in the future.... They have been around to see all the false promises in the past by the government. They won't be around much longer to ask either.

No, that is when nations show what they truly believe in, when things are hard. Nations fall apart when they abandon the ideas they were founded on. I'm have a ton of respect for people that fought in WW2, they are the greatest generation, but if we give into terrorism, everything they fought for will be undone. You don't get a free pass just becasue you are older, respect must be earned and authority needs to be questioned when it is wrong.

[Guinness]

And? Should we wiretape Americans and undo half the bill of rights becasue of this? Terrorism is a threat and that is why we have people working to find these people and arrest them.I remember Tim Mckevey blowing up a building, how are they any different, terrorism has been around forever, should we give up on the rule of law? If we do then then we don't deserve to have it at all.

While I agree, your post is ironic.

[pittsoccer33]

And? Should we wiretape Americans and undo half the bill of rights becasue of this? Terrorism is a threat and that is why we have people working to find these people and arrest them.I remember Tim Mckevey blowing up a building, how are they any different, terrorism has been around forever, should we give up on the rule of law? If we do then then we don't deserve to have it at all.

What American citizens have been wiretapped? Please provide evidence. Foreign nationals with ties to al qaeda and other islamic terror groups have been.

[shafnutz05]

And? Should we wiretape Americans and undo half the bill of rights becasue of this? Terrorism is a threat and that is why we have people working to find these people and arrest them.I remember Tim Mckevey blowing up a building, how are they any different, terrorism has been around forever, should we give up on the rule of law? If we do then then we don't deserve to have it at all.

This is a misconception/mistruth that the ACLU propagates to scare people. The NSA could care less what you are talking about with your brother over the phone. They don't have the resources, nor the desire, to wiretap everyday Americans that are calling home to their families. It has been stated numerous times that the calls that are being wiretapped are either international calls to hotbeds of terrorism, or domestic calls between KNOWN TERRORIST SUSPECTS. I don't have a problem with this.

[Guinness]

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[Geezer]

And? Should we wiretape Americans and undo half the bill of rights becasue of this? Terrorism is a threat and that is why we have people working to find these people and arrest them.I remember Tim Mckevey blowing up a building, how are they any different, terrorism has been around forever, should we give up on the rule of law? If we do then then we don't deserve to have it at all.

This is a misconception/mistruth that the ACLU propagates to scare people. The NSA could care less what you are talking about with your brother over the phone. They don't have the resources, nor the desire, to wiretap everyday Americans that are calling home to their families. It has been stated numerous times that the calls that are being wiretapped are either international calls to hotbeds of terrorism, or domestic calls between KNOWN TERRORIST SUSPECTS. I don't have a problem with this.

Don't muddy the issue with facts. Haven't heard much about the WH shenanigans about Emails, cookies from the Bill-of-Rights "defenders". That crap and Waxman's demands for employee personal info is a Hell of a lot scarier than the so-called wiretapping. My rule of thumb is that most things the ACLU rants about are likely good for the country. The ACLU is too busy trying to represent terrorists and Taliban in Afghanistan in war zone situations. These people aren't Americans, they're not in America, they're not detainees at Gitmo.The ACLU now servers as the Taliban JAG.

[Guinness]

I don't have a problem with this.

Do you have a problem with warrants?

[shafnutz05]

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 75088.html

Chilling article from a Brit who has gone through the horrors of nationalized healthcare...I would never wish what he went through on ANYONE.

[pittsoccer33]

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 75088.html

Chilling article from a Brit who has gone through the horrors of nationalized healthcare...I would never wish what he went through on ANYONE.

But they keep telling us those are isolated incidents, exagerations by the media and by big insurance and so forth.

Here's a great article on the mess by Peggy Noonan, one of my favorite commentators:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 63340.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The president's health-care plan is not clear, and I mean that not only in the sense of "he hasn't told us his plan." I mean it in terms of the voodoo phrases, this gobbledygook, this secret language of government that no one understands—"single payer," "public option," "insurance marketplace exchange." No one understands what this stuff means, nobody normal.

And when normal people don't know what the words mean, they don't say to themselves, "I may not understand, but my trusty government surely does, and will treat me and mine with respect." They think, "I can't get what these people are talking about. They must be trying to get one past me. So I'll vote no."

[doublem]

And? Should we wiretape Americans and undo half the bill of rights becasue of this? Terrorism is a threat and that is why we have people working to find these people and arrest them.I remember Tim Mckevey blowing up a building, how are they any different, terrorism has been around forever, should we give up on the rule of law? If we do then then we don't deserve to have it at all.

This is a misconception/mistruth that the ACLU propagates to scare people. The NSA could care less what you are talking about with your brother over the phone. They don't have the resources, nor the desire, to wiretap everyday Americans that are calling home to their families. It has been stated numerous times that the calls that are being wiretapped are either international calls to hotbeds of terrorism, or domestic calls between KNOWN TERRORIST SUSPECTS. I don't have a problem with this.

But, they don't have warrants, do they?

[tikidoc]

And? Should we wiretape Americans and undo half the bill of rights becasue of this? Terrorism is a threat and that is why we have people working to find these people and arrest them.I remember Tim Mckevey blowing up a building, how are they any different, terrorism has been around forever, should we give up on the rule of law? If we do then then we don't deserve to have it at all.

This is a misconception/mistruth that the ACLU propagates to scare people. The NSA could care less what you are talking about with your brother over the phone. They don't have the resources, nor the desire, to wiretap everyday Americans that are calling home to their families. It has been stated numerous times that the calls that are being wiretapped are either international calls to hotbeds of terrorism, or domestic calls between KNOWN TERRORIST SUSPECTS. I don't have a problem with this.

But, they don't have warrants, do they?

The bottom line is that our country has laws. Those laws are supposed to apply to everyone, in order to protect all of us. If we start saying that the government only has to follow the laws some of the time, and at other times, the ends justify the means, the system of laws become meaningless.

[Ron`]

I don't have a problem with this.

Do you have a problem with warrants?

Nor do I have a problem with wiretapes on my own phone line if the are truely in the interests of national security.... as I said once before, 911 was a culture shock world wide... A war that will never know the boundaries of things we have seen in the past... I'm not sure anyone has their arms around this yet internationally, but it's a real problem as it's driven by pure a desire to just inflict chaos, not a desire for some economic, ideologic or colonialist belief ..... Could be and likely is seated in haves, vs have nots and suppressed individual beliefs and nations.

[Ron`]

And? Should we wiretape Americans and undo half the bill of rights becasue of this? Terrorism is a threat and that is why we have people working to find these people and arrest them.I remember Tim Mckevey blowing up a building, how are they any different, terrorism has been around forever, should we give up on the rule of law? If we do then then we don't deserve to have it at all.

This is a misconception/mistruth that the ACLU propagates to scare people. The NSA could care less what you are talking about with your brother over the phone. They don't have the resources, nor the desire, to wiretap everyday Americans that are calling home to their families. It has been stated numerous times that the calls that are being wiretapped are either international calls to hotbeds of terrorism, or domestic calls between KNOWN TERRORIST SUSPECTS. I don't have a problem with this.

Don't muddy the issue with facts. Haven't heard much about the WH shenanigans about Emails, cookies from the Bill-of-Rights "defenders". That crap and Waxman's demands for employee personal info is a Hell of a lot scarier than the so-called wiretapping. My rule of thumb is that most things the ACLU rants about are likely good for the country. The ACLU is too busy trying to represent terrorists and Taliban in Afghanistan in war zone situations. These people aren't Americans, they're not in America, they're not detainees at Gitmo.The ACLU now servers as the Taliban JAG.

The ACLU is too busy protecting those that are not truly american citizens that they have lost purpose. Enough said.