LGP Political Discussion Thread

[HomerPenguin]

You know, I'm not a fan of Obama, but I truly respect how he made himself. If he's not an example of how you can excel and define what job you wanted to shoot for, I don't know who is then. There are plenty of examples. Do you think Obama just chose to be President one day while in school in Hawaii and *poof* it magically happened? Of course not. He made sacrifices. He had goals. He exerted massive effort to get where he wanted and network with the right people.

And it still required 8 years of the most disastrous administration in American history, a complete meltdown by his top primary opponent, and a massive economic collapse right before the election in order to seal the deal.

It's not just about "choice." There are always other factors at work.

[JoseCuervo]

If you want to reduce healthcare costs, you have to reduce the cost of medicine and treatment and also stop having people sue doctors for everything they have.

Anyways, if you reduce the cost of medical school or decrease the required time it takes to be a doctor, it will become less. But with reduced times, your doctors may not be as good.

In short, I pay too much money for tuition. I don't like it. And I used to be premed but don't want to put all that time into it.

[shafnutz05]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26251.html

Since the Democrats have recognized that the public/people in their own party are turning against the healthcare bill, they have decided to take a different tack: Attack the insurance companies directly. This is seriously the most transparent attempt at crushing and silencing the private industry I have ever seen. Does anyone really think it's a coincidence that Waxman and Company are suddenly demanding records from PRIVATE companies? They are doing everything they can to smear them and make the public option look that much better to the voter.

It is incredible to me that people want to give the United States government the power to tell a privately-owned company how much they can pay, what benefits they can give, and how they spend the capital that they earn. Regardless of your view on the whole healthcare plan et al, I feel like the Dems in Congress are just pushing the throttle forward and driving this train straight for the cliff. It's not noble, it's stupid.

[pittsoccer33]

Ok, I agree, but why is it this way? Why can't you get a cheaper catostrophic plan that you only will need if you get some life threatening disease or horrible accident? I've heard a lot of people blame tax deductions you get if you go through an employer. Are there other restrictions that limit the type of insurance offered by insurance companies that prohibit offering a multitude of plans?

I think people are just conditioned to the idea now. They think their health insurance should pay for everything, from perscriptions to surgery.

[PensFanInDC]

I still want to know where we are going to get all the extra doctors...

[shafnutz05]

I still want to know where we are going to get all the extra doctors...

THANK YOU.

This is essentially the crux of the matter. Everyone universally agrees that in a single-payer system, the salaries of doctors and physicians are going to be regulated by the government. Naturally, these salaries are going to be slightly to significantly lower than what they are making now (and I don't have one problem with them making the money they do).

I can tell you right now, if we move to a single-payer public system, there is no way in hell I would enter medical school, even if I had the means to do it. We are going to have a massive influx of millions of uninsured into doctor's offices all across the country, and the number of doctors will likely maintain for a very short time then begin to slowly decrease.

[PensFanInDC]

I still want to know where we are going to get all the extra doctors...

THANK YOU.

This is essentially the crux of the matter. Everyone universally agrees that in a single-payer system, the salaries of doctors and physicians are going to be regulated by the government. Naturally, these salaries are going to be slightly to significantly lower than what they are making now (and I don't have one problem with them making the money they do).

I can tell you right now, if we move to a single-payer public system, there is no way in hell I would enter medical school, even if I had the means to do it. We are going to have a massive influx of millions of uninsured into doctor's offices all across the country, and the number of doctors will likely maintain for a very short time then begin to slowly decrease.

And then we wait months to see a doctor and by then....only God knows what will happen.

I'm for a Universal Healthcare system (just not the one currently proposed). I'm NOT for waiting months to see a doctor. I'm also not for being deemed "less important"* due to my age (when I get that old).



*I dont think in any way, shape or form that Obama wants to "pull the plug on grandma". Anyone who does is out of their mind. I do, however, see how they deem age and past health as stipulations for who gets certain treatments in certain situations.

[Shyster]

To try and address your question I would say that the problem with healthcare is obviously that prices are too high for an average person to afford without taking out major loans or without having good insurance. Why is this the case you ask? Well I think we'd have to look at a number of things to try and determine that. Why is a 15 minute doctors visit $300-500? What percentage of this money goes to his take home pay? How much pays for his malpractice insurance? How much goes to run the buisness? I don't know really and don't have time to research right now but it might be a starting point.

To play devil’s advocate, why shouldn’t it be $300-500? Fifteen minutes of my time (0.3 hour, rounded up) will cost you... let’s see... $45.50, and I’m a fairly low-level associate at a mid-to-small law firm. If you want the same attention from one of our top-level directors, that will run you about $75. The same attention from a partner at Reed Smith or K&L would cost you significantly more, say $100+. A doctor’s education, counting internship and residency, lasts two to three times longer than a lawyer’s, so their time should be correspondingly more valuable. Say a doctor’s time is worth twice as much as a lawyer’s. Now were up to $150-200 for 15 minutes. Doctors also have higher overhead. My practice doesn’t need to use or maintain nearly as many consumable supplies, and I don’t need blood pressure cuffs, scopes, and other specialized equipment that certainly costs more than a pack of pens or a ream of paper for our copiers. And, yes, a doctor’s malpractice insurance is far more expensive than mine. We’re starting to get up there, aren’t we?

[Shyster]

People seem to be against trying to get others to succeed after they have already got theirs, maybe that has something to do with in the 1980's politicians and business started telling us greed was good.

Okay. Assume I'm one of the people who "got his," and you are one of those that didn't. What, exactly, do you expect me to do for you?

[pittsoccer33]

To try and address your question I would say that the problem with healthcare is obviously that prices are too high for an average person to afford without taking out major loans or without having good insurance. Why is this the case you ask? Well I think we'd have to look at a number of things to try and determine that. Why is a 15 minute doctors visit $300-500? What percentage of this money goes to his take home pay? How much pays for his malpractice insurance? How much goes to run the buisness? I don't know really and don't have time to research right now but it might be a starting point.

To play devil’s advocate, why shouldn’t it be $300-500? Fifteen minutes of my time (0.3 hour, rounded up) will cost you... let’s see... $45.50, and I’m a fairly low-level associate at a mid-to-small law firm. If you want the same attention from one of our top-level directors, that will run you about $75. The same attention from a partner at Reed Smith or K&L would cost you significantly more, say $100+. A doctor’s education, counting internship and residency, lasts two to three times longer than a lawyer’s, so their time should be correspondingly more valuable. Say a doctor’s time is worth twice as much as a lawyer’s. Now were up to $150-200 for 15 minutes. Doctors also have higher overhead. My practice doesn’t need to use or maintain nearly as many consumable supplies, and I don’t need blood pressure cuffs, scopes, and other specialized equipment that certainly costs more than a pack of pens or a ream of paper for our copiers. And, yes, a doctor’s malpractice insurance is far more expensive than mine. We’re starting to get up there, aren’t we?

This ties in to the point I was making. If I wanted to have a contract looked over, and I had "legal insurance" with a $20 "attorney copay" I wouldnt care if you read it or Edgar Snyder himself read it. Since I don't and I have to pay out of my pocket I would look for a lower cost alternative to a high priced big name.

[PensFanInDC]

WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!??!!??!!??

[pittsoccer33]

WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!??!!??!!??

[shafnutz05]

WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!??!!??!!??

Finally, after 30 pages of thoughtless posts someone finally writes a well thought out, intellectually stimulating post.

[bhaw]

WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!??!!??!!??

1) legalize assisted suicide
2) counsel them on their impending euthanasia
3) ???
4) Profit

[PensFanInDC]

I also think this says a lot about this thread...

[Sarcastic]

To try and address your question I would say that the problem with healthcare is obviously that prices are too high for an average person to afford without taking out major loans or without having good insurance. Why is this the case you ask? Well I think we'd have to look at a number of things to try and determine that. Why is a 15 minute doctors visit $300-500?

That's the bottom line. It costs too much. Go to an ER without insurance. Just for admittance, they charge about $1,500. A couple of X-rays? Another $500. Spend a week in a hospital - $15K (my granmda). Who sets these prices? The people who own these hospitals and who are in cahoots with insurance companies. Don't have health insurance? May actually be better off, since the gov. will often pay for it (charity care programs), except for the doctor fees and the drugs. It could literally be better if you're totally poor than if you're right in the middle where you're expected to pay, but can't afford it. But, if you don't have insurance the doctor will charge you 3 to 4 times as much for his/her services (as reported in the news many times) and you are going to pay crazy money for the drugs. How come prices are different for when you do and do not have insurance!?

People talk about the 50 million or so uninsured, but an even bigger problem, IMO, is the ones who have some insurance but are considered "underinsured". Many things aren't covered. The ones that are, only partially. Doctors often have to fight with insurance companies to allow treatment. Insurance companies are probably the biggest problem which is why I don't give a flying duck if some of those go out of business. Then you have the hospitals who overcharge for everything. If you go to a regular doctor, then it isn't bad. Usually under $100 should be OK for a visit. Go to a hospital to get something done, it's a whole different story.

I don't have an answer as to how exactly fix it, but the entire system is a mess and I will tell you right now that I would much prefer a system such as the one in France or England or Canada. They have their own complains about theirs, but they pale in comparison to what we have here.

[Corvidae]

I need surgery on my jaw and I can barely chew anymore. I have no insurance because I could never find steady work after 4 years of college. I'm 25. I'm screwed. The healthcare system is not OK.

[Shyster]

That's the bottom line. It costs too much. Go to an ER without insurance. Just for admittance, they charge about $1,500. A couple of X-rays? Another $500. Spend a week in a hospital - $15K (my granmda). Who sets these prices? The people who own these hospitals and who are in cahoots with insurance companies.

The majority of hospitals are non-profit, charitable entities organized under 501(c)(3) of the tax code. Take UPMC as an example. Nobody owns UPMC. It doesn't have any shareholders or owners who get to take home the profits at the end of the day. It's already supposed to operate without a profit motive.

But, if you don't have insurance the doctor will charge you 3 to 4 times as much for his/her services (as reported in the news many times) and you are going to pay crazy money for the drugs. How come prices are different for when you do and do not have insurance!?

Because insurance companies negotiate lower prices for their customers. Take another local example: Highmark. Highmark is the big dog in the local health insurance market. It can go to a hospital and say "if you want to stay on our preferred provider list, you need to cut us deals on how much you charge our customers. Because we can send a lot of people your way, you'll make it up on the volume." It's called economy of scale. It’s the same reason stuff is cheaper at Walmart—Walmart can use its huge bulk buying power to demand lower prices from its suppliers. An individual doesn’t have that buying power.

BTW, Highmark is also a non-profit, charitable entity. Nobody takes home Highmark’s profits at the end of the day; they are used to maintain reserves for future expenses. Many proponents of health care reform seem to think that government options will be less expensive because the government won’t share the same profit motivation as “greedy” insurance companies. Many locals would argue that Highmark is one of those “too expensive” private insurance companies. But Highmark is already supposed to operate without a profit motive, just as the “public option” would. What makes anyone think that the government would do a better job than an existing company that operates in essentially the same way the “public option” would?

[bh]

To try and address your question I would say that the problem with healthcare is obviously that prices are too high for an average person to afford without taking out major loans or without having good insurance. Why is this the case you ask? Well I think we'd have to look at a number of things to try and determine that. Why is a 15 minute doctors visit $300-500? What percentage of this money goes to his take home pay? How much pays for his malpractice insurance? How much goes to run the buisness? I don't know really and don't have time to research right now but it might be a starting point.

To play devil’s advocate, why shouldn’t it be $300-500? Fifteen minutes of my time (0.3 hour, rounded up) will cost you... let’s see... $45.50, and I’m a fairly low-level associate at a mid-to-small law firm. If you want the same attention from one of our top-level directors, that will run you about $75. The same attention from a partner at Reed Smith or K&L would cost you significantly more, say $100+. A doctor’s education, counting internship and residency, lasts two to three times longer than a lawyer’s, so their time should be correspondingly more valuable. Say a doctor’s time is worth twice as much as a lawyer’s. Now were up to $150-200 for 15 minutes. Doctors also have higher overhead. My practice doesn’t need to use or maintain nearly as many consumable supplies, and I don’t need blood pressure cuffs, scopes, and other specialized equipment that certainly costs more than a pack of pens or a ream of paper for our copiers. And, yes, a doctor’s malpractice insurance is far more expensive than mine. We’re starting to get up there, aren’t we?

I was asking because I really don't know what the cost structure is for a general physcians practice. I wasn't saying that it should or shouldn't be that amount. I was looking more for like 10%-doctor pay, 50% malpractice, 40% overhead and equipment costs?? Maybe you could help out here. There have to be ways to run a more effient and cheap practice.

So in your opinion, why are healthcare costs skyrocketing?

[PensFanInDC]

I need surgery on my jaw and I can barely chew anymore. I have no insurance because I could never find steady work after 4 years of college. I'm 25. I'm screwed. The healthcare system is not OK.

I dont think anyone in this thread would disagree with you at all.

The Healthcare system is NOT ok.

We are debating the solutions, both proposed and not proposed.

I'm 28, I chose to be a screwup for 10 years and now I have no college degree and a $15 an hour job in one of the highest cost of living areas in the country. We are probably going to be evicted and homeless in 4-6 weeks because my wife's last day of work is Friday (laid off...) and it's hard to find work. I will have insurance for the first time in 3 years starting 9/1/09.

I NEVER expected ANYONE to EVER hand me any form of help and I NEVER will. I choose my path and I live with the consequences.

My family was lower middle class growing up (household income of less then $60k a year....again think of the area I live in). My grades SUCKED in high school.

I applied for loans and grants and everything else under the sun for college and I got most of them. How? Cause I was 18 and was at a stage to make some big decisions. As stated earlier, dont give me that "not everyone can have a chance" argument.

Yes, I was raised in a higher end area but in the poor section of it (yes, they do exist). I CHOSE to mess up and now I have to live with it and crawl my way out through....follow me here....HARD WORK.

[Ron`]

Homer, nobody is going to just give you a job either... You have to beg, borrow and demonstrate a will to get there. Scratch and show people you are willing to work..

Mmmm-hmmm. And if they don't have a job for you, then you're still not getting a job.

Agreed, too much effort has been expended on supplying jobs that are low skill, low tech and producing nothing that is exportable. Alot of effort has been expended on draining the industrial base via taxes and feel good initiatives. America was built on it's working class producing products that were wanted and highly exportable, that is the history. Things fell apart when we moved to a strictly service based economy.

[bh]

Homer, nobody is going to just give you a job either... You have to beg, borrow and demonstrate a will to get there. Scratch and show people you are willing to work..

Mmmm-hmmm. And if they don't have a job for you, then you're still not getting a job.

Agreed, too much effort has been expended on supplying jobs that are low skill, low tech and producing nothing that is exportable. Alot of effort has been expended on draining the industrial base via taxes and feel good initiatives. America was built on it's working class producing products that were wanted and highly exportable, that is the history. Things fell apart when we moved to a strictly service based economy.

But how do you compete with third world countries that pay their workers a dollar a day? I think the industrial base left because they can get labor cheaper elsewhere. I think that the taxes and initiatives have helped push some companies out the door but they are not the sole reason industry has left.

[Ron`]

Excellent post!

1 and 2 are good. But #3 has got to be a typo. No one really believes that some pharmaceutical corporation, or some rich white dude who owns a bank, wants to actually help people. These folks are only interested in sucking you dry out every penny you've got. I think this became obvious in the last 10 or 15 years. At least for me, since I started looking at this stuff.

I think the point is people take care of people, the government never does. The government programs during the last great depression have been proven to extend it's duration. People survived though because they took care of each other.. plain and simple.... Providing a complete safety net via the government has never been cost effective... See Social Security, Medicare etc.. Programs that are completely crashing, though it was promised to the people at the time as the right thing to do... This is just phase three of a complete lie provided by our elected officials. They know they can't fund it today let alone fund it in the future....

[doublem]

I need surgery on my jaw and I can barely chew anymore. I have no insurance because I could never find steady work after 4 years of college. I'm 25. I'm screwed. The healthcare system is not OK.

I dont think anyone in this thread would disagree with you at all.

The Healthcare system is NOT ok.

We are debating the solutions, both proposed and not proposed.

I'm 28, I chose to be a screwup for 10 years and now I have no college degree and a $15 an hour job in one of the highest cost of living areas in the country. We are probably going to be evicted and homeless in 4-6 weeks because my wife's last day of work is Friday (laid off...) and it's hard to find work. I will have insurance for the first time in 3 years starting 9/1/09.

I NEVER expected ANYONE to EVER hand me any form of help and I NEVER will. I choose my path and I live with the consequences.

My family was lower middle class growing up (household income of less then $60k a year....again think of the area I live in). My grades SUCKED in high school.

I applied for loans and grants and everything else under the sun for college and I got most of them. How? Cause I was 18 and was at a stage to make some big decisions. As stated earlier, dont give me that "not everyone can have a chance" argument.

Yes, I was raised in a higher end area but in the poor section of it (yes, they do exist). I CHOSE to mess up and now I have to live with it and crawl my way out through....follow me here....HARD WORK.

I'm sorry, but I don't see the point here. We aren't talking about welfare here, people that are sitting around buying T.V.'s and hummers. Why are you assuming that people that "screwed up" can't afford health care? I posted the link before about the growing inequalities between the rich and the poor, they have never been higher, more and more companies cannot afford the cost of health care. I don't understand how someone can say that lower income families have the same chances as higher income families. They have better schools, better health care, basically better everything. Of course people can work hard and make it, but how hard do you really want it to be for people to overcome adversity. Citizens in the supposed greatest country in the world shouldn't be declaring bankruptcy becasue they can't find affordable health care or dying for that matter, What kind of reflection is that on us as a nation?

[Ron`]

Mmmm-hmmm. And if they don't have a job for you, then you're still not getting a job.

Agreed, too much effort has been expended on supplying jobs that are low skill, low tech and producing nothing that is exportable. Alot of effort has been expended on draining the industrial base via taxes and feel good initiatives. America was built on it's working class producing products that were wanted and highly exportable, that is the history. Things fell apart when we moved to a strictly service based economy.

But how do you compete with third world countries that pay their workers a dollar a day? I think the industrial base left because they can get labor cheaper elsewhere. I think that the taxes and initiatives have helped push some companies out the door but they are not the sole reason industry has left.

You don't handicap them with pie in the sky ideals, the other countries aren't even considering... Such as Cap and Trade etc...