LGP Political Discussion Thread

[doublem]

I clearly underestimated the power of big business in politics, there appears to be no government force strong enough to combat it.

When did they start trying to combat it?

Hmmm. Good Point.

[doublem]

At this point they should scrap the whole thing and pass a $1 trillion giveaway to the insurance industry. It will waste the same amount of money and accomplish what they're going to accomplish anyway, but at least the true goal would be plain for everyone to see.

Or, "they" could recognize the futility of trying to manage the free market and stay the hell out of it? Government should do it's job - protect individuals from violations of their liberty through force/fraud. They'd save us a lot of time and money, and preserve our liberty.

You seem to have no problem with private tyranny, at least state tyranny has elected officials that are somewhat accountable, private companies have no one.

[Guinness]

I clearly underestimated the power of big business in politics, there appears to be no government force strong enough to combat it.

When did they start trying to combat it?

Why would anyone ever assume that they would? This is the premise behind limited government. This assumption that we can somehow create this leviathan that is immune to corruption...

[Guinness]

You seem to have no problem with private tyranny, at least state tyranny has elected officials that are somewhat accountable, private companies have no one.

What is "private tyranny"?

Private entities have social sanction? No, not without the existence of government.

[HomerPenguin]

Expect the SC to rule soon in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission that corporations should be under no campaign finance restrictions whatsoever. If you can't call this country corporatist now, that's when it becomes official.

[Guinness]

Expect the SC to rule soon in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission that corporations should be under no campaign finance restrictions whatsoever. If you can't call this country corporatist now, that's when it becomes official.

It's long been official, probably since after Jackson's presidency. Corporatism, Socialism... very little difference. In one case government and corporations walk hand-in-hand; in the other, they're one in the same.

[doublem]

You seem to have no problem with private tyranny, at least state tyranny has elected officials that are somewhat accountable, private companies have no one.

What is "private tyranny"?

Private entities have social sanction? No, not without the existence of government.

Big Business control over society. I'm sure in some fantasy world where markets were left to there natural order everything would be just fine.

[doublem]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/16/ ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/healt ... ml?_r=1&hp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Asked Sunday if Obama would accept a bill lacking a public option, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said the president insists on more competition in the health insurance marketplace to offer consumers better choices.The bottom line ... is: Do individuals looking for health insurance in the private market have choice and competition?" Gibbs said on the CBS program "Face the Nation." "If we have that, the president will be satisfied."

Is this really some crazy left wing nut that everyone seems so afraid of? Actually, sounds pretty conservative to me. Mission accomplished by the right wing fear mongers.

"We have the best health care system in the world," Republican Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama told "Fox News Sunday." "We need to expand it. We do not need to destroy it."

What a bold face liar, What evidence does he have of this?

On Sunday, Senator John D. Rockefeller IV, Democrat of West Virginia, affirmed his support for the public option. “I believe the inclusion of a strong public plan option in health reform legislation is a must,” Mr. Rockefeller said in a statement. “It is the only proven way to guarantee that all consumers have affordable, meaningful and accountable options available in the health insurance marketplace.”

It's funny to me that Rockefeller refers to the American public as consumers and not citizens; nothing shows the markets power more then that. In democracies people are usually referred to as citizens first.

[neophool]

bottom line is - i'm poor so no matter what i'll get the short end of the stick. so yeah.

[Guinness]

Big Business control over society. I'm sure in some fantasy world where markets were left to there natural order everything would be just fine.

"Big Business control over society" -- impossible without the cooperation of government. Socialism and Corporatism are practically the same thing. How much difference was their between Hitler and Stalin, when you get right down to it?

[Guinness]

It's funny to me that Rockefeller refers to the American public as consumers and not citizens; nothing shows the markets power more then that. In democracies people are usually referred to as citizens first.

At least the word "consumer" implies a choice. I would have preferred he use the word "people", or "individuals". Or better yet, that he would not have said anything at all.

[Geezer]

I clearly underestimated the power of big business in politics, there appears to be no government force strong enough to combat it.

When did they start trying to combat it?

I'd say TR started combating it with his trust busting actions. The government has forced large corps to break up over the years such as Bell Telephone. I don't know if they've just checked on taking action against microsoft or actually did something. There's no shortage of business critics/opponents in congress. There are government mechanisms to address monopolies and various excesses.

[AlexPKeaton]

Someone describe this co-op plan that I have been hearing. Is the fee for the co-op insurance based on income?

[shafnutz05]

Someone describe this co-op plan that I have been hearing. Is the fee for the co-op insurance based on income?

Here's a good synopsis of co-ops...they are horribly ineffective from the looks of it

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/1 ... 61044.html

[pittsoccer33]

Someone describe this co-op plan that I have been hearing. Is the fee for the co-op insurance based on income?

Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are government sponsered enterprises, or "co-ops." Those have thrived the last several years under Franklin Raines, Barney Frank, and Chris Dodd

[HomerPenguin]

I'd say TR started combating it with his trust busting actions.

Over 100 years ago. Most of which has since been defanged or outright done away with.

The government has forced large corps to break up over the years such as Bell Telephone.

There's one. 25 years ago. And the telecom act of 1996 brought consolidation right back to the industry again.

I don't know if they've just checked on taking action against microsoft or actually did something.

Took them to court. Wound up settling for a slap on the wrist.

There's no shortage of business critics/opponents in congress.

As compared to the number of congresspersons who are bought and paid for by big business? Yes, there is a shortage.

There are government mechanisms to address monopolies and various excesses.

When was the last time anybody bothered to exercise them? 1984?

[HomerPenguin]

Here's a good synopsis of co-ops...they are horribly ineffective from the looks of it

They are horribly ineffective, particularly if you're idiotic enough to expect them to act as some sort of check on price increases. No co-op is ever going to be big enough to negotiate rates that could put a drag on health care costs in general.

[AlexPKeaton]

Someone describe this co-op plan that I have been hearing. Is the fee for the co-op insurance based on income?

Here's a good synopsis of co-ops...they are horribly ineffective from the looks of it

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/1 ... 61044.html

So it is basically a government subsidized private insurance? How is that any different from a public plan? And how does it solve the problem of poor people getting health insurance? This seems, with my limited knowledge... kind of useless.

[doublem]

It's funny to me that Rockefeller refers to the American public as consumers and not citizens; nothing shows the markets power more then that. In democracies people are usually referred to as citizens first.

At least the word "consumer" implies a choice. I would have preferred he use the word "people", or "individuals". Or better yet, that he would not have said anything at all.

Right, it implies choice to shop, not choice to do much of anything else. Consumers have all kind of choices like what shoes to buy, but that isn't what a citizens choice is, a consumer is a solely private choice, a citizens choice actually requires decisions in the public circle.

[DelPen]

I'd be for expanding the income limit to allow those who trulely can't afford insurance that don't qulify now, and that's 10% of the uninsured or about 5 million people, if the government will remove restrictions on allowing companies to pool plans across state lines.

Not sure how much this is comparable but car insurance used to be astronomical in NJ because they did not allow out of state companies like Geico ot progressive sell insurance, you had to be a NJ company or have branch offices in NJ. As soon as they lifted these restrictions the costs dropped like a rock.

The inability to buy direct from Aetna, US Healthcare, whoever is part of the reason there are higher costs and if there is real portability which is the consumer buying plans direct and get employers out of the middle that would be great.

[doublem]

Big Business control over society. I'm sure in some fantasy world where markets were left to there natural order everything would be just fine.

"Big Business control over society" -- impossible without the cooperation of government. Socialism and Corporatism are practically the same thing. How much difference was their between Hitler and Stalin, when you get right down to it?

Actually, business played an important role in the holocaust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; should we get rid of private companies becasue they did something terrible? The problem with that argument is that you would have to believe to Stalin and Hilter were following those ideologues. Do you think Stalin was having meetings about Marx and Lenin in the Kremlin? It was about power and control not ideologues.

[doublem]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/17/ ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[HomerPenguin]

I'd be for expanding the income limit to allow those who trulely can't afford insurance that don't qulify now, and that's 10% of the uninsured or about 5 million people, if the government will remove restrictions on allowing companies to pool plans across state lines.

If what government will remove restrictions on allowing companies to pool plans across state lines?

[HomerPenguin]

Once the "public option" is punted out of this effort, can I assume that the people who were so vociferously against it on the grounds of government power run amok will also be opposing any mandate for private citizens to buy health insurance? I know I will be.

[pittsoccer33]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/17/ ... index.html

If this is all true, then where is the outrage? Where are NYT Bestsellers? The Pulitzer winners? Why aren't these practices being extended into homeowners and auto insurance?

I don't doubt at all corporations would try to maximize profits, but if they are actively engaging in this type of behavior day in and day out then there would be an enourmous backlash and I'd be part of it. Truth is I, like most americans (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06 ... -coverage/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) am happy with my health insurance.

Perhaps the top doctor of the Canadian Medical Association got those talking points:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Gu_Z3KXoQw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;