Penguins souring on Plan B

[Draftnik]

One wonders how Kansas City looks without Sprint? Telecommunications is a VERY risky industry.
Sprint has done very well so far employing what most analysts agree have been rather risky business practices. And, so far, their gambles (a nationwide fiber optic network -considered foolhardy by most) have paid off. But KC has given ENORMOUS tax breaks to Sprint and the the financial well being of the area is pinned to Sprint's success or failure. And should Sprint falter, the blow to KC would be profound. I'm not saying this is going to happen but would merely like to point out that Pittsburgh has survived an even greater blow to become a national leader in tech and health-care, when big steel left en masse'

I'm not a telecom expert but I do know the Nextel acquisition has been very bad for Sprint to date and likely will continue to be since Nextel subscribers are on some outdated network. Sprint laid off tens of thousands of people due to the merger and poor post-merger results. There is also speculation that Comcast will enter the wireless market this year for the quad play bundle and Sprint/Nextel or TMobile are the most logical acquisition candidates.

I know they have other large companies HQed there like H&R Block for example, but KC is not some rapidly rising metro area. I think Pittsburgh (metro area) was around 350K to 400K larger in the last census. Based on recent growth/contraction rates it probably would take decades for KC to pass Pittsburgh.

[gruntov]

One wonders how Kansas City looks without Sprint? Telecommunications is a VERY risky industry.
Sprint has done very well so far employing what most analysts agree have been rather risky business practices. And, so far, their gambles (a nationwide fiber optic network -considered foolhardy by most) have paid off. But KC has given ENORMOUS tax breaks to Sprint and the the financial well being of the area is pinned to Sprint's success or failure. And should Sprint falter, the blow to KC would be profound. I'm not saying this is going to happen but would merely like to point out that Pittsburgh has survived an even greater blow to become a national leader in tech and health-care, when big steel left en masse'

I'm not a telecom expert but I do know the Nextel acquisition has been very bad for Sprint to date and likely will continue to be since Nextel subscribers are on some outdated network. Sprint laid off tens of thousands of people due to the merger and poor post-merger results. There is also speculation that Comcast will enter the wireless market this year for the quad play bundle and Sprint/Nextel or TMobile are the most logical acquisition candidates.

I know they have other large companies HQed there like H&R Block for example, but KC is not some rapidly rising metro area. I think Pittsburgh (metro area) was around 350K to 400K larger in the last census. Based on recent growth/contraction rates it probably would take decades for KC to pass Pittsburgh.

But they have Hallmark!

[HomerPenguin]

I'm not a telecom expert but I do know the Nextel acquisition has been very bad for Sprint to date and likely will continue to be since Nextel subscribers are on some outdated network. Sprint laid off tens of thousands of people due to the merger and poor post-merger results. There is also speculation that Comcast will enter the wireless market this year for the quad play bundle and Sprint/Nextel or TMobile are the most logical acquisition candidates.

One can only hope that Comcast runs its mobile business as well as it runs its high-speed internet division. The block I live on has had no fewer than 4 lengthy (as in several days) localized Comcast internet outages since Thanksgiving. Each time it happens you call Comcast, get told that there's no outage because "90% of the houses in your area are online" when "your area" is probably far larger than this single block, then 2-3 days later they finally acknowledge an outage and 2 days after that somebody comes out and fixes it. Then you get internet for a week until the whole thing repeats itself. I finally told them in so many words to stick their internet someplace and called AT&T.

[Draftnik]

I'm not a telecom expert but I do know the Nextel acquisition has been very bad for Sprint to date and likely will continue to be since Nextel subscribers are on some outdated network. Sprint laid off tens of thousands of people due to the merger and poor post-merger results. There is also speculation that Comcast will enter the wireless market this year for the quad play bundle and Sprint/Nextel or TMobile are the most logical acquisition candidates.

One can only hope that Comcast runs its mobile business as well as it runs its high-speed internet division. The block I live on has had no fewer than 4 lengthy (as in several days) localized Comcast internet outages since Thanksgiving. Each time it happens you call Comcast, get told that there's no outage because "90% of the houses in your area are online" when "your area" is probably far larger than this single block, then 2-3 days later they finally acknowledge an outage and 2 days after that somebody comes out and fixes it. Then you get internet for a week until the whole thing repeats itself. I finally told them in so many words to stick their internet someplace and called AT&T.

I've heard similar stories about Comcast customer service/quality (lack thereof) in Pittsburgh and Maryland. I have DirecTV so I never considered Adelphia (now Comcast) for internet. I am waiting until FiOS gets to my house for high speed internet. In the meantime I use Verizon mobile broadband for my internet and subject my wife, daughter, and sons to dialup.

[Buckycat7]

One wonders how Kansas City looks without Sprint? Telecommunications is a VERY risky industry.
Sprint has done very well so far employing what most analysts agree have been rather risky business practices. And, so far, their gambles (a nationwide fiber optic network -considered foolhardy by most) have paid off. But KC has given ENORMOUS tax breaks to Sprint and the the financial well being of the area is pinned to Sprint's success or failure. And should Sprint falter, the blow to KC would be profound. I'm not saying this is going to happen but would merely like to point out that Pittsburgh has survived an even greater blow to become a national leader in tech and health-care, when big steel left en masse'

I'm not a telecom expert but I do know the Nextel acquisition has been very bad for Sprint to date and likely will continue to be since Nextel subscribers are on some outdated network. Sprint laid off tens of thousands of people due to the merger and poor post-merger results. There is also speculation that Comcast will enter the wireless market this year for the quad play bundle and Sprint/Nextel or TMobile are the most logical acquisition candidates.

I know they have other large companies HQed there like H&R Block for example, but KC is not some rapidly rising metro area. I think Pittsburgh (metro area) was around 350K to 400K larger in the last census. Based on recent growth/contraction rates it probably would take decades for KC to pass Pittsburgh.

This couldn't be more wrong, Sprint has done just fine with the Nextel acquisition, there are bumps in the road but nothing you wouldn't imagine when two companies of that size join together. Fact is that Sprint is more profitable now then it's ever been.

Just an FYI...Sprint is now technically HQ in Reston, VA the operational are based in Overland Park, KS which is a suburb of Kansas City. Sprint's HQ offices in Reston are only for the companies officers.

Also before any more talk about how Kansas City doesn't have any money or would be to support a team or the Economy problems that would come up I think everyone would scan this at least:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_Economy

KC it is much, much better shape then every gives it credit for.

[Senka]

so i've seen this thread up a while. I'm not about to sift through 4 pages to get the info i wanted. I heard ups and downs on this deal. if someone could be so kind to summerize something for me. it can be very brief, im just curious about whats going on.

[PensBeerGeek]

The part I don't understand about Barden is he can't afford $15 million for the first two years of Plan B (which is his own damn fault since he's not building a temp casino) but yet somehow he's going to be able to afford the $50 million license?? I'm also a little annoyed that he's walking in here at Hour 11 demanding a cut....he got one, it's called a casino which will be a money printing operation!!

I'm also in full belief that this will get done. From what I hear, it seems like some teams without the superstar power and hence less bargaining (like Nashville) will be on the market, so the KC deal will be running out fast, so the Pens will have a bit of impetus to get good enough and put their names on the line.

[Ron`]

We don't appreciate researched, well thought out posts around here, let alone those with sources. Please be sure to include the words "Whitney" and "sucks" in your next post. Thank you.

And don't forget to add imaginary statistics.

[newarenanow]

The part I don't understand about Barden is he can't afford $15 million for the first two years of Plan B (which is his own damn fault since he's not building a temp casino) but yet somehow he's going to be able to afford the $50 million license?? I'm also a little annoyed that he's walking in here at Hour 11 demanding a cut....he got one, it's called a casino which will be a money printing operation!!

I'm also in full belief that this will get done. From what I hear, it seems like some teams without the superstar power and hence less bargaining (like Nashville) will be on the market, so the KC deal will be running out fast, so the Pens will have a bit of impetus to get good enough and put their names on the line.

Bardens payments weren't supposed to start until 2009 and he agreed to move them up to when the casino would open in 2008. He made a comment saying he couldn't make the payments until the casino opens which is true and he will be making them earlier than expected.

As for the parking revenue, it has nothing ot do with the arena, but the redevelopment. He is supposed to be dumping $350M in development money into the Hill. It is an investement. You make money off of investements. This would be benefitical to all to have development around the arena.

[bill from turtle creek]

Even though his plan is to redevelop the Hill, there isn't any reason that he has to be given the right to redevelop the same tract of land that the Pens want to redevelop. The Hill's a large place. It doesn't follow, to me, that the area he is going to redevelop necessarily be that land right across the street from the new arena.

I simply do not believe that he has any right to conclude that he and the Pens must develop the same area of land together. Let him redevelop the area in the middle Hill, where the business district is, or around Center and Wylie.

Newarenanow, you interpret Barden's involvement as almost something that he is doing out of the goodness of his heart, when it comes to his arena contribution. It's not. He made the deal to contribute because it was necessary to give his bid a chance. At no point in time was his late-added redevelopment plan for the Hill defined as a co-development plan with anybody.

[profpolisci]

One wonders how Kansas City looks without Sprint? Telecommunications is a VERY risky industry.
Sprint has done very well so far employing what most analysts agree have been rather risky business practices. And, so far, their gambles (a nationwide fiber optic network -considered foolhardy by most) have paid off. But KC has given ENORMOUS tax breaks to Sprint and the the financial well being of the area is pinned to Sprint's success or failure. And should Sprint falter, the blow to KC would be profound. I'm not saying this is going to happen but would merely like to point out that Pittsburgh has survived an even greater blow to become a national leader in tech and health-care, when big steel left en masse'

I'm not a telecom expert but I do know the Nextel acquisition has been very bad for Sprint to date and likely will continue to be since Nextel subscribers are on some outdated network. Sprint laid off tens of thousands of people due to the merger and poor post-merger results. There is also speculation that Comcast will enter the wireless market this year for the quad play bundle and Sprint/Nextel or TMobile are the most logical acquisition candidates.

I know they have other large companies HQed there like H&R Block for example, but KC is not some rapidly rising metro area. I think Pittsburgh (metro area) was around 350K to 400K larger in the last census. Based on recent growth/contraction rates it probably would take decades for KC to pass Pittsburgh.

This couldn't be more wrong, Sprint has done just fine with the Nextel acquisition, there are bumps in the road but nothing you wouldn't imagine when two companies of that size join together. Fact is that Sprint is more profitable now then it's ever been.

Just an FYI...Sprint is now technically HQ in Reston, VA the operational are based in Overland Park, KS which is a suburb of Kansas City. Sprint's HQ offices in Reston are only for the companies officers.

Also before any more talk about how Kansas City doesn't have any money or would be to support a team or the Economy problems that would come up I think everyone would scan this at least:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_Economy

KC it is much, much better shape then every gives it credit for.

Look, the health of Sprint/Nextel is of no consequence to an angry Burkle, but the long term outlook of a company in a volatile business sector, that owes plenty to the tax leniency of it's proprietary city, that has in no way established a business moat, and, could be perceived as struggling right now, could very well be of concern to the NHL.

This from the Kansas City Star earlier this month (1-11)

The job cutback announced by Sprint Nextel this week will mark the biggest such move since Sprint began slicing its payroll five years ago. Given the quality of the jobs involved, this is a dose of bad news for both Sprint workers and the Kansas City economy.

Gary Forsee, chairman and chief executive of Sprint Nextel, didn’t try to sugarcoat the announcement. “There will be impact on Kansas City,â€￾ he said.

Forsee says about 5,000 positions will be eliminated, although it isn’t yet known what share of the total will come from the Kansas City area job base. Between 2001 and 2005, Sprint eliminated more than 20,000 jobs companywide.

With 14,500 workers at its operational headquarters in Overland Park, Sprint Nextel is the largest corporate employer in the metropolitan area — and one with a significant effect on the local economy.

“Since 2001, when Sprint began having trouble, our local economy has been growing slower than the national average,â€￾ said Frank Lenk, research director for the Mid-America Regional Council. “I don’t want to overstate the case — others things have been going on at the same time — but when they’re growing quicker, we grow quicker. When they grow slower, we grow slower.â€￾

At least this round of cutbacks comes at a time when the economy is growing, unlike the situation in 2001. But the released workers still deserve compassion and support.

[Draftnik]

This couldn't be more wrong, Sprint has done just fine with the Nextel acquisition, there are bumps in the road but nothing you wouldn't imagine when two companies of that size join together. Fact is that Sprint is more profitable now then it's ever been.

Just an FYI...Sprint is now technically HQ in Reston, VA the operational are based in Overland Park, KS which is a suburb of Kansas City. Sprint's HQ offices in Reston are only for the companies officers.

Also before any more talk about how Kansas City doesn't have any money or would be to support a team or the Economy problems that would come up I think everyone would scan this at least:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_Economy

KC it is much, much better shape then every gives it credit for.

Sprint lost 300K net subscribers last quarter, many of them premium business customers.


Sprint isn't more profitable. Their margins are down across the board. Investment analysts don't look at a merger and if the overall profit number is up consider that a gain, they look at the profit as a percentage of revenue. Sprint is less profitable than they were before the Nextel merger. Have you ever taken an accounting class?

Here are a slew of links for you to educate yourself before you spout your troll nonsense.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financia ... I7E8G0.htm

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/ ... technology

With 14,500 workers at its operational headquarters in Overland Park, Sprint Nextel is the largest corporate employer in the metropolitan area — and one with a significant effect on the local economy.

“Since 2001, when Sprint began having trouble, our local economy has been growing slower than the national average,â€￾ said Frank Lenk, research director for the Mid-America Regional Council. “I don’t want to overstate the case — others things have been going on at the same time — but when they’re growing quicker, we grow quicker. When they grow slower, we grow slower.â€￾

At least this round of cutbacks comes at a time when the economy is growing, unlike the situation in 2001. But the released workers still deserve compassion and support.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascit ... 430451.htm

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/01/ ... 19226.html



http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/ ... tlook.html

http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/ar ... hp/3653826

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/t ... B06AEBA%7D



http://www.computerwire.com/industries/ ... =CW%20News

http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.a ... 4142AB131C

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascit ... 984471.htm

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascit ... 858634.htm

The merger has been a disaster for Sprint.

[Bowser]

Draftnik - I'm on Verizon Fios now. I got it on Wednesday and though I haven't noticed any significant speed differences after 3+ years of Comcast, I'm paying a cheaper rate so I'm happy.

The guys I spoke to said Verizon cable tv should be released around 4th Qtr 2007 so when that's launched, I'm dumping Comcast.

Comcast's customer service and connectivity with their digital cable internet isn't worth $45 per month.

[Draftnik]

Draftnik - I'm on Verizon Fios now. I got it on Wednesday and though I haven't noticed any significant speed differences after 3+ years of Comcast, I'm paying a cheaper rate so I'm happy.

The guys I spoke to said Verizon cable tv should be released around 4th Qtr 2007 so when that's launched, I'm dumping Comcast.

Comcast's customer service and connectivity with their digital cable internet isn't worth $45 per month.

I can't wait for FiOS. I'll also be glad when this arena saga is over and the foolish KC trolls stop visiting the board. They have taken ignorance to new depths.

[passmaster16]

I think at the end of the day a deal will get done. But I do have some concern with how the politicians are coming out in defense of their offer. There is still a chance that they are thowing these things out there now to convince the public that a departure of the Pens would solely be the fault of the current ownership. If anybody saw Nightly Sports Call last night, John Steigerwald made a similar point in his soundoff.

I saw the following quotes from Ravenstahl on WTAE's site today.

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/spo ... etail.html

"I'm still confident," Ravenstahl said. "I know, as the governor alluded to yesterday, that this deal is the most lucrative deal ever been given to any sports franchise in Pennsylvania, and really throughout the country, if you look at sports deals. We know what those details are, and we'll be happy to share them with the public once an agreement is reached or not reached."

"We know that we've been competitive, like we've said all along, and confident that at the end of the day, we did exactly what we needed to do to keep the Penguins in Pittsburgh. I believe the Penguins will understand that, and realize they have a good deal, and agree to it hopefully," said Ravenstahl.

[dagny]

Here are a slew of links for you to educate yourself before you bring spout your troll nonsense.

Drafnik, I've always respected your posts. That said, why is he a troll just because he disagrees. Okay, maybe he's not as well versed in all this as you. For that matter, how many of us actually are?

I didn't say anything about your increasing condescension during the time it was orginally brought up, because others did. I'll say now, I agreed. With your expertise in this area there is no need for condescension. As long as you're right and your figures are accurate, that's all you really need.

No offense intended as your insight is greatly appreciated. However, you seem to, IMO, be developing a superiority complex over all this. That in itself diminishes your credibility. We all make errors, at least give people credit for TRYING to understand and taking an interest in your analyses. You can correct someone without calling them names or beating dead horses to a pulp (i.e., "the fix is in crowd".) Which is more what I'd expect from a poster of your caliber.

Trolls come in, spew flames, try to incite arguments, spam, etc. I'm getting really tired of seeing people labeled as trolls simply because they have an opposing view. Probably about as tired as you are of repeating yourself about this subject. I can understand how that would take it's toll and add to your irritation.

So, I'm asking you, as a person who's always respected your posting... please take what I've said into consideration.

[Draftnik]

Here are a slew of links for you to educate yourself before you bring spout your troll nonsense.

Drafnik, I've always respected your posts. That said, why is he a troll just because he disagrees. Okay, maybe he's not as well versed in all this as you. For that matter, how many of us actually are?

I didn't say anything about your increasing condescension during the time it was orginally brought up, because others did. I'll say now, I agreed. With your expertise in this area there is no need for condescension. As long as you're right and your figures are accurate, that's all you really need.

No offense intended as your insight is greatly appreciated. However, you seem to, IMO, be developing a superiority complex over all this. That in itself diminishes your credibility. We all make errors, at least give people credit for TRYING to understand and taking an interest in your analyses. You can correct someone without calling them names or beating dead horses to a pulp (i.e., "the fix is in crowd".) Which is more what I'd expect from a poster of your caliber.

Trolls come in, spew flames, try to incite arguments, spam, etc. I'm getting really tired of seeing people labeled as trolls simply because they have an opposing view. Probably about as tired as you are of repeating yourself about this subject. I can understand how that would take it's toll and add to your irritation.

So, I'm asking you, as a person who's always respected your posting... please take what I've said into consideration.

Fair points. I probably use "troll" interchangeably with somebody who is wrong. I guess that makes me wrong.

I assume when a person says "this couldn't be more wrong" they would at least have an iota of fact to back up such a definitive statement. What he posted was 180 degrees from the truth.

I agree my counter-points in general on the arena issue have probably violated the board's spirit of friendly exchanges. As you speculated it is due to a general fatigue of repeating the same stuff I've been posting since Plan B was announced whenever it was in early-mid 2006.

I'll be very glad when we can all get back to hockey and avoid this business nonsense, although I'm sure I will have some economic analysis to unleash while criticizing Gonchar's contract when the Pens are playing in their new arena.

[dagny]

Fair points. I probably use "troll" interchangeably with somebody who is wrong. I guess that makes me wrong.

I assume when a person says "this couldn't be more wrong" they would at least have an iota of fact to back up such a definitive statement. What he posted was 180 degrees from the truth.

I agree my counter-points in general on the arena issue have probably violated the board's spirit of friendly exchanges. As you speculated it is due to a general fatigue of repeating the same stuff I've been posting since Plan B was announced whenever it was in early-mid 2006.

I'll be very glad when we can all get back to hockey and avoid this business nonsense, although I'm sure I will have some economic analysis to unleash while criticizing the Gonchar's contract when the Pens are playing in their new arena.

Thanks! Again, your insight has been more than greatly appreciated. The fact that you have actually taken the time to reiterate over and over is downright commendable!

[the wicked child]

I can't wait till this mess is over and we don't need wars over the business health of Sprint.

[marioisgod]

If the parking revenues of a new arena are the contested areas of this
negotiation, then I'd think that things look pretty promising for the Pens
to stay in Pittsburgh.

Is KC even offering them any revenue from the redevelopment of the area
around Sprint Center?

I would think that this "parking issue" is a negotiating point, and one that
will fall away fairly quickly. I'm sure Barden will be less forthcoming
with sharing revenue from any other redevelopment around the hill.
That will be the real "sticking" point to this deal.

I agree though, I hope that we can all put this behind us soon.
I long for the day when as a fan of the great city of Pittsburgh I can whoop
it up in a long loud celebration when the Penguins announce they are
staying for the next 30 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peace

[edog]

If the parking revenues of a new arena are the contested areas of this
negotiation, then I'd think that things look pretty promising for the Pens
to stay in Pittsburgh.

Is KC even offering them any revenue from the redevelopment of the area
around Sprint Center?

I don't see how. That development is well underway. KC pretty much handed over the Sprint Center to AEG, so the city had to have something for themselves......

I would think that this "parking issue" is a negotiating point, and one that
will fall away fairly quickly. I'm sure Barden will be less forthcoming
with sharing revenue from any other redevelopment around the hill.
That will be the real "sticking" point to this deal.

Depends on the areas in question.....

I agree though, I hope that we can all put this behind us soon.
I long for the day when as a fan of the great city of Pittsburgh I can whoop
it up in a long loud celebration when the Penguins announce they are
staying for the next 30 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you will see this soon.....

Peace

[dboss]

But if PGH is losing people and KC is adding 22K/per, won't take long. Plus, there are 500K people within an hour of KC metro (Topeka, etc) that aren't counted in KC's MSA.

Well...Cleveland is within 90 minutes of Pittsburgh so we can add their 2.9 million to Pittsburgh's population, bringing the combined Pittsburgh/Cleveland total to 5.4 million vs. KC/Topeka's 2.6 million. Great argument!

How far is St. Louis from KC, maybe you can pull them in as well.