Penguins souring on Plan B

jjj5032 · Post by **jjj5032** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:11 am

http://post-gazette.com/pg/07020/755371-61.stm

Penguins souring on Plan B
Governor calls deal hard to beat, but team balks at splitting development rights, parking

Saturday, January 20, 2007
By Mark Belko, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Annie O'Neill, Post-Gazette

Gov. Ed Rendell yesterday said the arena deal being offered the Penguins is better than others struck recently in the National Hockey League, but the team has balked at a proposal to share development rights and parking revenues with Pittsburgh casino backer Don Barden.

Another issue that has come up in the talks is $10 million the Penguins may owe Isle of Capri Casinos Inc., which lost to Mr. Barden in the bidding for the city's casino license.

According to Mr. Rendell, the Penguins agreed to pay that amount if Isle of Capri failed to win the casino license but the team still secured a new arena in Pittsburgh.

[Admin snip: Please don't post entire articles.]

Looks like after reading that were pretty much back to square one.

Three Stars · Post by **Three Stars** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:38 am

Don't post entire articles on the board. It could get us in trouble with copyright law. Just post a paragraph or two (or edit your post accordingly).

Badger Bob · Post by **Badger Bob** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:32 am

The Trib wasn't nearly as negative:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... 89487.html

I think Rendell should have kept his mouth shut. He knows how to "no comment" and he should have done that in this case. He's playing the unaware portion of the public like a fiddle.

I still think a deal will get done. Unfortunately, they have to involve Barden in the process because of the redevopment portion of the deal. It just would have been a typical business courtesy to let the Penguins know that Barden was going to be at the meeting Thursday.

It's got to be tough for Mario/Burkle to deal with the politicians that screwed them over for so long and with the owner of the new casino that was picked over IOC.

Post by **jwest21** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:38 am

don't panic...the PG is probably just being overly dramatic to sell papers

Badger Bob · Post by **Badger Bob** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:43 am

jwest21 wrote:don't panic...the PG is probably just being overly dramatic to sell papers

If they don't get their labor situation soon, they won't be selling any papers.

SportsFan · Post by **SportsFan** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:44 am

I still don't get all the love for Mario and Burkle. Sure everyone wants to see the team stay, but the ownership group seems to be a little picky right now. They are getting the best arena deal in the state, and stat wise they have been the next to worst franchise in the state over the last 5 years.

That being pushed aside, has Mario and Burkle lived under the rock the last 5 years? Have they not read and understood that the city in that time has cut 1/2 of it's police force, 1/4 of its firefighters, and 1/4 of its other city employees, have they not tead about the tax problems in the city. When I read stuff like they payment went from 5 million to 2.9, but the group wants 1.5 it leaves a sour taste in my mouth about the group. THEY CAN'T GET A FREE ARENA. NO WAY!

I want the team to stay, I love Mario, but I think they are coming off as a little selfish right now.

Badger Bob · Post by **Badger Bob** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:08 am

SportsFan wrote:I still don't get all the love for Mario and Burkle. Sure everyone wants to see the team stay, but the ownership group seems to be a little picky right now. They are getting the best arena deal in the state, and stat wise they have been the next to worst franchise in the state over the last 5 years.

That being pushed aside, has Mario and Burkle lived under the rock the last 5 years? Have they not read and understood that the city in that time has cut 1/2 of it's police force, 1/4 of its firefighters, and 1/4 of its other city employees, have they not tead about the tax problems in the city. When I read stuff like they payment went from 5 million to 2.9, but the group wants 1.5 it leaves a sour taste in my mouth about the group. THEY CAN'T GET A FREE ARENA. NO WAY!

I want the team to stay, I love Mario, but I think they are coming off as a little selfish right now.

I think you're reading way too much into the info being leaked from so called sources in the Pens organization. This is just negotiations. They're going to go back and forth until they reach a middle ground and it will be a done deal. There may be a little quibbling going on right now, but it will get done. The Pens will come back with a counter offer and somehow between the two proposals they will agree. It's just unfortunate that Rendell had to open his mouth about the process.

dboss · Post by **dboss** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:12 am

SportsFan wrote:I still don't get all the love for Mario and Burkle. Sure everyone wants to see the team stay, but the ownership group seems to be a little picky right now. They are getting the best arena deal in the state, and stat wise they have been the next to worst franchise in the state over the last 5 years.

That being pushed aside, has Mario and Burkle lived under the rock the last 5 years? Have they not read and understood that the city in that time has cut 1/2 of it's police force, 1/4 of its firefighters, and 1/4 of its other city employees, have they not tead about the tax problems in the city. When I read stuff like they payment went from 5 million to 2.9, but the group wants 1.5 it leaves a sour taste in my mouth about the group. THEY CAN'T GET A FREE ARENA. NO WAY!

I want the team to stay, I love Mario, but I think they are coming off as a little selfish right now.

Do you really believe they are getting the best arena deal possible? I don't think we have enough of the facts to even begin to think that is entirely true, unless we want to go solely on the 'word' of Gov. Philadelphia.

Guins · Post by **Guins** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:14 am

PghPens06 wrote:
SportsFan wrote:I still don't get all the love for Mario and Burkle. Sure everyone wants to see the team stay, but the ownership group seems to be a little picky right now. They are getting the best arena deal in the state, and stat wise they have been the next to worst franchise in the state over the last 5 years.

That being pushed aside, has Mario and Burkle lived under the rock the last 5 years? Have they not read and understood that the city in that time has cut 1/2 of it's police force, 1/4 of its firefighters, and 1/4 of its other city employees, have they not read about the tax problems in the city. When I read stuff like they payment went from 5 million to 2.9, but the group wants 1.5 it leaves a sour taste in my mouth about the group. THEY CAN'T GET A FREE ARENA. NO WAY!

I want the team to stay, I love Mario, but I think they are coming off as a little selfish right now.
I think you're reading way too much into the info being leaked from so called sources in the Pens organization. This is just negotiations. They're going to go back and forth until they reach a middle ground and it will be a done deal. There may be a little quibbling going on right now, but it will get done. The Pens will come back with a counter offer and somehow between the two proposals they will agree. It's just unfortunate that Rendell had to open his mouth about the process.

Hey no logical thought when it comes to this or the "NEXT" crisis or any other crisis's

Guins · Post by **Guins** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:16 am

dboss wrote:
SportsFan wrote:I still don't get all the love for Mario and Burkle. Sure everyone wants to see the team stay, but the ownership group seems to be a little picky right now. They are getting the best arena deal in the state, and stat wise they have been the next to worst franchise in the state over the last 5 years.

That being pushed aside, has Mario and Burkle lived under the rock the last 5 years? Have they not read and understood that the city in that time has cut 1/2 of it's police force, 1/4 of its firefighters, and 1/4 of its other city employees, have they not tead about the tax problems in the city. When I read stuff like they payment went from 5 million to 2.9, but the group wants 1.5 it leaves a sour taste in my mouth about the group. THEY CAN'T GET A FREE ARENA. NO WAY!

I want the team to stay, I love Mario, but I think they are coming off as a little selfish right now.
Do you really believe they are getting the best arena deal possible? I don't think we have enough of the facts to even begin to think that is entirely true, unless we want to go solely on the 'word' of Gov. Philadelphia.

It's called "THOUGHT" get used to doing it,It helps a hell of a lot in everyday life

dboss · Post by **dboss** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:22 am

Guins wrote:
dboss wrote:
SportsFan wrote:I still don't get all the love for Mario and Burkle. Sure everyone wants to see the team stay, but the ownership group seems to be a little picky right now. They are getting the best arena deal in the state, and stat wise they have been the next to worst franchise in the state over the last 5 years.

That being pushed aside, has Mario and Burkle lived under the rock the last 5 years? Have they not read and understood that the city in that time has cut 1/2 of it's police force, 1/4 of its firefighters, and 1/4 of its other city employees, have they not tead about the tax problems in the city. When I read stuff like they payment went from 5 million to 2.9, but the group wants 1.5 it leaves a sour taste in my mouth about the group. THEY CAN'T GET A FREE ARENA. NO WAY!

I want the team to stay, I love Mario, but I think they are coming off as a little selfish right now.
Do you really believe they are getting the best arena deal possible? I don't think we have enough of the facts to even begin to think that is entirely true, unless we want to go solely on the 'word' of Gov. Philadelphia.
It's called "THOUGHT" get used to doing it,It helps a hell of a lot in everyday life

What are you talking about? I'm questioning how anybody can take Rendell's public comments on anything to be true. After all, look at how he blindsided the Pens negotiating team by adding Barden to the meetings.

Guins · Post by **Guins** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:27 am

dboss wrote:
Guins wrote:
dboss wrote:
SportsFan wrote:I still don't get all the love for Mario and Burkle. Sure everyone wants to see the team stay, but the ownership group seems to be a little picky right now. They are getting the best arena deal in the state, and stat wise they have been the next to worst franchise in the state over the last 5 years.

That being pushed aside, has Mario and Burkle lived under the rock the last 5 years? Have they not read and understood that the city in that time has cut 1/2 of it's police force, 1/4 of its firefighters, and 1/4 of its other city employees, have they not tead about the tax problems in the city. When I read stuff like they payment went from 5 million to 2.9, but the group wants 1.5 it leaves a sour taste in my mouth about the group. THEY CAN'T GET A FREE ARENA. NO WAY!

I want the team to stay, I love Mario, but I think they are coming off as a little selfish right now.
Do you really believe they are getting the best arena deal possible? I don't think we have enough of the facts to even begin to think that is entirely true, unless we want to go solely on the 'word' of Gov. Philadelphia.
It's called "THOUGHT" get used to doing it,It helps a hell of a lot in everyday life
What are you talking about? I'm questioning how anybody can take Rendell's public comments on anything to be true. After all, look at how he blindsided the Pens negotiating team by adding Barden to the meetings.

But of course you believe whats being "leaked" to the media by the Pens right?

NJ5934 · Post by **NJ5934** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:37 am

It is just me, or is anyone else seeing "Mr. Barden" as an emerging rat in this whole matter.

Initially, he was willing to promise whatever money was asked, in order to stay in the hunt for the slots license. Now...he feels that promise was actually an "investment" in the Penguins, entitling him to a percentage of whatever the teams ends up making off the arena.

Am I reading too much into this? My understanding was the commitment of 7.5 a year was thrown across the board to whichever group was granted the license. It was not an investment, not a partnership, and it did not entitle the subsequent winner to any payback from the Penguins as a result of thier contribution.

pens#1 · Post by **pens#1** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:42 am

BAN THE CASINO- TELL LOCAL OFFICIALS TO GET BARDEN OUT OF THESE MEETING- WE WANT HIS MONEY(THAT HE PROMISED) AND NOTHING ELSE

I HATE SLICK EDDIE - IM OFF TO EMAIL/CALL THE PIGS

dboss · Post by **dboss** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:42 am

Guins wrote:
dboss wrote:
Guins wrote:
dboss wrote:
SportsFan wrote:I still don't get all the love for Mario and Burkle. Sure everyone wants to see the team stay, but the ownership group seems to be a little picky right now. They are getting the best arena deal in the state, and stat wise they have been the next to worst franchise in the state over the last 5 years.

That being pushed aside, has Mario and Burkle lived under the rock the last 5 years? Have they not read and understood that the city in that time has cut 1/2 of it's police force, 1/4 of its firefighters, and 1/4 of its other city employees, have they not tead about the tax problems in the city. When I read stuff like they payment went from 5 million to 2.9, but the group wants 1.5 it leaves a sour taste in my mouth about the group. THEY CAN'T GET A FREE ARENA. NO WAY!

I want the team to stay, I love Mario, but I think they are coming off as a little selfish right now.
Do you really believe they are getting the best arena deal possible? I don't think we have enough of the facts to even begin to think that is entirely true, unless we want to go solely on the 'word' of Gov. Philadelphia.
It's called "THOUGHT" get used to doing it,It helps a hell of a lot in everyday life
What are you talking about? I'm questioning how anybody can take Rendell's public comments on anything to be true. After all, look at how he blindsided the Pens negotiating team by adding Barden to the meetings.
But of course you believe whats being "leaked" to the media by the Pens right?

Please tell me why Barden was at the meetings then if he isn't in someway benefiting from the situation? And Yes, when have the Pens given any us any reason to doubt their word in the past. Given the choice between Rendell and Pens ownership, I don't see much of a choice. Maybe its just a difference of opinion, but I don't see any reason for Barden to benefit from this negotiation. If he wants to re-develop the Mellon site and profit from that, fine but why is parking revenue on the table for him. IOC put up $290 million for an arena and was going to gain nothing other than the casino license. Barden put up $7.5 mill a year AND now he is going to gain revenue as well. I see NO reason for him to be involved. I would find it much less annoying if the Pens would have less parking revenue and the portion slated for Barden was put towards arena construction, taxes, etc. The man received a license to PRINT money in this city and now the politicians are willing to give some of that money back. WHY? It seems like nothing more than politics as usual IMHO.

Guins · Post by **Guins** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:43 am

NJ5934 wrote:It is just me, or is anyone else seeing "Mr. Bardenas an emerging rat in this whole matter.

Initially, he was willing to promise whatever money was asked, in order to stay in the hunt for the slots license. Now...he feels that promise was actually an "investment" in the Penguins, entitling him to a percentage of whatever the teams ends up making off the arena.

Am I reading too much into this? My understanding was the commitment of 7.5 a year was thrown across the board to whichever group was granted the license. It was not an investment, not a partnership, and it did not entitle the subsequent winner to any payback from the Penguins as a result of their contribution.

YES IT IS!!!!!!! It is in the agreement they have with the gaming board,And when they award the License to them they have to SIGN A CONTRACT adhering to all the conditions in the CONTRACT!!!!

Guins · Post by **Guins** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:45 am

dboss wrote:
Guins wrote:
dboss wrote:
Guins wrote:
dboss wrote: Do you really believe they are getting the best arena deal possible? I don't think we have enough of the facts to even begin to think that is entirely true, unless we want to go solely on the 'word' of Gov. Philadelphia.
It's called "THOUGHT" get used to doing it,It helps a hell of a lot in everyday life
What are you talking about? I'm questioning how anybody can take Rendell's public comments on anything to be true. After all, look at how he blindsided the Pens negotiating team by adding Barden to the meetings.
But of course you believe whats being "leaked" to the media by the Pens right?
Please tell me why Barden was at the meetings then if he isn't in someway benefiting from the situation? And Yes, when have the Pens given any us any reason to doubt their word in the past. Given the choice between Rendell and Pens ownership, I don't see much of a choice. Maybe its just a difference of opinion, but I don't see any reason for Barden to benefit from this negotiation. If he wants to re-develop the Mellon site and profit from that, fine but why is parking revenue on the table for him. IOC put up $290 million for an arena and was going to gain nothing other than the casino license. Barden put up $7.5 mill a year AND now he is going to gain revenue as well. I see NO reason for him to be involved. I would find it much less annoying if the Pens would have less parking revenue and the portion slated for Barden was put towards arena construction, taxes, etc. The man received a license to PRINT money in this city and now the politicians are willing to give some of that money back. WHY? It seems like nothing more than politics as usual IMHO.

Um I don't trying to sell the team out of town not once,not twice, but three times,When THEY SAID they wanted to keep them here

Guins · Post by **Guins** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:47 am

When you get a clue how the business world works give me a call,until then you are in a race with a Maserati & you are a YUGO

spi · Post by **spi** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:52 am

Keep the faith people. Did you really think that after all this time they would just miraculously hammer this out without any disagreements? I was hopeful that was the case but I anticipated some dips in the coaster ride. I have been preparing for the day that we all think that they are gone and at the last possible minute, they strike a deal. I still await that day.

Not sure if in the end they stay but there are just far to many positives to staying and hurdles to clear before they can leave. This is a negotiation with several hundred million dollars at stake. There are bound to be setbacks that need to be ironed out.

AS far as saying they are back to square one, I would have a tough time saying they are back to the beginning. Sounds like they still need to figure out the parking which I think Rendell will relinquish on, development rights not sure what to say about that.

My question is, is the 2mill in lease payments in addition to the 2.9 mill they would have to pay?

Stay positive people, only a few more weeks until this ends one way or another and I still think they are to close to not stay

dboss · Post by **dboss** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:53 am

Guins wrote:When you get a clue how the business world works give me a call,until then you are in a race with a Maserati & you are a YUGO

What's your number so when I figure out the 'business world according to Guins' I can give you a call?

newarenanow · Post by **newarenanow** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:05 am

dboss wrote:
Guins wrote:
dboss wrote:
Guins wrote:
dboss wrote: Do you really believe they are getting the best arena deal possible? I don't think we have enough of the facts to even begin to think that is entirely true, unless we want to go solely on the 'word' of Gov. Philadelphia.
It's called "THOUGHT" get used to doing it,It helps a hell of a lot in everyday life
What are you talking about? I'm questioning how anybody can take Rendell's public comments on anything to be true. After all, look at how he blindsided the Pens negotiating team by adding Barden to the meetings.
But of course you believe whats being "leaked" to the media by the Pens right?
Please tell me why Barden was at the meetings then if he isn't in someway benefiting from the situation? And Yes, when have the Pens given any us any reason to doubt their word in the past. Given the choice between Rendell and Pens ownership, I don't see much of a choice. Maybe its just a difference of opinion, but I don't see any reason for Barden to benefit from this negotiation. If he wants to re-develop the Mellon site and profit from that, fine but why is parking revenue on the table for him. IOC put up $290 million for an arena and was going to gain nothing other than the casino license. Barden put up $7.5 mill a year AND now he is going to gain revenue as well. I see NO reason for him to be involved. I would find it much less annoying if the Pens would have less parking revenue and the portion slated for Barden was put towards arena construction, taxes, etc. The man received a license to PRINT money in this city and now the politicians are willing to give some of that money back. WHY? It seems like nothing more than politics as usual IMHO.

You ask why I would doubt the Pens word? Their "priority" from day one was to keep the team in Pgh, but yet they attempted to sell the team to not one, but two individuals who's priority it was to move it. The Pens word, not mine.

As for Barden, part of his casino plan was to dump $350M into the HIll to redevelop it. They are not going to dump that kind of money w/o making money in return. He is trying to make a partnership with the Pens on this development. One of the revenue sources of a development is the parking that goes with it.

I'm sorry, but Barden is investing a lot of money, and in return he should make money. That is insane if you think he is doing it for free. The IOC plan I'm sure would have them making money on parking around the casino and Nationwide making money on parking for the development around the IOC plan. THey were being charitable either.

edog · Post by **edog** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:08 am

newarenanow wrote:
dboss wrote:
Guins wrote:
dboss wrote:
Guins wrote:It's called "THOUGHT" get used to doing it,It helps a hell of a lot in everyday life
What are you talking about? I'm questioning how anybody can take Rendell's public comments on anything to be true. After all, look at how he blindsided the Pens negotiating team by adding Barden to the meetings.
But of course you believe whats being "leaked" to the media by the Pens right?
Please tell me why Barden was at the meetings then if he isn't in someway benefiting from the situation? And Yes, when have the Pens given any us any reason to doubt their word in the past. Given the choice between Rendell and Pens ownership, I don't see much of a choice. Maybe its just a difference of opinion, but I don't see any reason for Barden to benefit from this negotiation. If he wants to re-develop the Mellon site and profit from that, fine but why is parking revenue on the table for him. IOC put up $290 million for an arena and was going to gain nothing other than the casino license. Barden put up $7.5 mill a year AND now he is going to gain revenue as well. I see NO reason for him to be involved. I would find it much less annoying if the Pens would have less parking revenue and the portion slated for Barden was put towards arena construction, taxes, etc. The man received a license to PRINT money in this city and now the politicians are willing to give some of that money back. WHY? It seems like nothing more than politics as usual IMHO.
You ask why I would doubt the Pens word? Their "priority" from day one was to keep the team in Pgh, but yet they attempted to sell the team to not one, but two individuals who's priority it was to move it. The Pens word, not mine.

As for Barden, part of his casino plan was to dump $350M into the HIll to redevelop it. They are not going to dump that kind of money w/o making money in return. He is trying to make a partnership with the Pens on this development. One of the revenue sources of a development is the parking that goes with it.

I'm sorry, but Barden is investing a lot of money, and in return he should make money. That is insane if you think he is doing it for free. The IOC plan I'm sure would have them making money on parking around the casino and Nationwide making money on parking for the development around the IOC plan. THey were being charitable either.

This is why I can't understand some of the team's positions. They jumped into bed with IOC, but aren't willing to do so with Barden? I have my issues with Barden as well, but this seems a little ridiculous....

newarenanow · Post by **newarenanow** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:10 am

Edog, I just think it is what they are supposed to do during negotiations, they are just trying to get the best deal for them. I'm sure they had many negotiations sessions with the IOC before they came to an agreement, it just wasn't as public as this.

But yes, at some point in the near future, all three parties have to come to an agreement. If the next meeting is as sour as this one, then I will be REALLY worried because they said they would tell KC their plans two weeks from yesterday.

spi · Post by **spi** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:21 am

Newarenanow or anyone else, Belko's article states

In addition to sharing parking revenues and development rights, the state, city and county also want the team to pay rent at the new arena, in excess of the roughly $2 million a year it pays SMG at Mellon Arena, sources said.

Does anyone know if the 2 million referred to here is separate from the contruction payment last reported to be around 2.9 mill?

Thanks

dboss · Post by **dboss** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:22 am

spi wrote:Newarenanow or anyone else, Belko's article states
In addition to sharing parking revenues and development rights, the state, city and county also want the team to pay rent at the new arena, in excess of the roughly $2 million a year it pays SMG at Mellon Arena, sources said.
Does anyone know if the 2 million referred to here is separate from the contruction payment last reported to be around 2.9 mill?

Thanks

Sorry, I think we are all in the dark on this statement by Belko.