bse wrote:Most people who seem to think kindly of Fleury right now, do not seem to remember all those years, like half a decade, where he was average at best and often times worse than that. Most people here wanted him gone, including Jim
For some, he was a favorite whipping boy and I can't blame them. It got to a point where he hired a sport psychologist in 2013. His career was going downhill at best - and finally overtaken by Murray, with whom he eventually won two cups.
Murray is going through the same right now, but there no better alternatives available. He's a two time cup winning goaltender - twice during the past three years and he has now struggled for what, 15 games? We are better than this. Pens must and likely will have enough patience for a young goaltender to turn his game around. It's not like he's the first goaltender facing difficulties, especially at such a young age.
Let's not get carried away here, Murray is and will be our #1.
I never thought Murray was as good as Fleury. Even when he was winning the cups - it was more the team in front of him than anything great he did. No goalie is perfect, and yeah, there are stretches in every goalie's career where he isn't playing up to his own standards. Lundqvist has been benched in the last couple of years.
Fleury spent a career with a team in front of him who put defensive play about eighth in priority for their time on the ice. Now that he's on a team that actually tries to play defense, we see the type of numbers he can achieve.
I agree and the time that Fleury needed a sports shrink, the whole team needed a team shrink. They let bad teams get under their skin and had team wide meltdowns.....but Fleury was at fault. He was just part of the overall problem. I think Sullivan and Horqnvist totally changed the culture and Fleury would have been pretty successful if he didn't get hurt and Murray stepped in.
Not picking on Murray here but the reality is he actually won1.5 cups. In 2016 Fleury was injured when playoffs started and Murray stepped in. He was very good, but the team in front of him was as well. I had zero doubt they'd beat the Sharks, the D was playing that good. In 2017 Murray was injured and Fleury started the playoffs. He beat the Jackets and Caps and was stellar. Do the Pens win those 2 series with Murray, well never know. I do remember having conversations with fans saying Fleury was so good I don't think Murray gets them past the Caps. Again, well never know. I was much dismayed with the short leash Fleury had against the Sens in the ECF. Forget what game he got pulled. Murray steps in and goes the rest of the way. It did take some Kuny heroics in game 7 to pull it out. Now, Murray was very good against Preds. 2 SO's including game 7. That's pressure. Just thought I'd point this out as Murray had a lot of help from Fleury in 2017.
I think the team believes it has a "legit #1" in Murray. They aren't going to even try to replace him. I'd guess he's their #4 priority when it comes to making cap room (behind Sid, Geno and Letang). Anyone they bring in will be a backup to Murray.
I still say Jarry has the potential to be better than Murray & should be the backup over Desmith. I know that puts me in an extreme minority, but that's my message board GM opinion.
johnnews wrote:I still say Jarry has the potential to be better than Murray & should be the backup over Desmith. I know that puts me in an extreme minority, but that's my message board GM opinion.
I thought Jarry did have the potential to be much better than Murray. As for the reason Jarry wasn't the backup this season, DeSmith was not only playing well but Jarry was the one who could be sent down. Plus if Jarry was a potential future starter you wanted him to develop rather than just sit. The signing of DeSmith changes that. They probably trade Jarry in the offseason unfortunately. Probably for a second or so.
Before this season started I saw the Murray/Jarry situation end up becoming very similar to the Fleury/Murray situation. Where the established Stanley Cup goalie is let go in the expansion draft for a cheaper goalie. The difference being Jarry would be the full time backup next season after developing in the AHL this season. DeSmith situation changed that imo.
johnnews wrote:I still say Jarry has the potential to be better than Murray & should be the backup over Desmith. I know that puts me in an extreme minority, but that's my message board GM opinion.
IMHO a big problem with Murray, besides a high glove problem, is he's at his best when he has a strong backup to drive him. He doesn't have that with DeSmith. Still I wouldn't recommend going out and getting a high end backup just to make Murray get better. I'd rather see Murray shed whatever funk he's in and get his game in order. DeSmith is OK but he's about where I expect him to be talent wise when he retires.
Murray currently sits tied for 10th in the league in 5 v 5 save %. (min 1400 minutes played) He makes 3.75 million.
He ranks ahead of the following
Carey Price - 10.5 M
Howard - 5.29
Varlamov - 5.9
Lundqvist - 8.5
Holtby - 6.1
Fleury - 5.75
Dubnyk - 4.3
Hellebuyck - 6.2
Bobrovsky - 7.4
Allen - 4.3
Quick - 5.8
Smith - 5.6
Jones - 5.75
Murray hasn't been his best this season, but to be ahead of all those guys with the pricetags they have is pretty good value and shows that maybe he hasn't been as bad as many make him out to be. Plus he has another year at that cost. He's been prone to the soft goal this year but has also proven to get hot and go on runs.
In his last 24 starts he's 17-5-2 with a .929 save %. I think there's a lot of teams out there that would love to have those kinds of numbers from their goaltender. SJ for sure is one of them. They are being sunk by the worst 5 v 5 save % in the league. Last time I looked they were the only team in the league that was under .900 at 5 v 5.
Fleury is playing behind the number 3 possession team in the league. They're also 5th best in high danger corsi against. His 8 shutouts lead the league but still only has a .912 save %. With 8 shutouts you would hope that number is much higher than that, thus proving his inconsistencies this year as well.
The Pens currently rank 18th in possession and 18th in high danger corsi against.
I guess the point is that the grass isn't always greener elsewhere. Many teams are paying a lot more for goaltending and getting less or even subpar results. SJ could definitely use Murray type numbers and Vegas would probably be sitting a lot higher than 16th in the league (or whatever they are).
murphydump55 wrote:Murray currently sits tied for 10th in the league in 5 v 5 save %. (min 1400 minutes played) He makes 3.75 million.
He ranks ahead of the following
Carey Price - 10.5 M
Howard - 5.29
Varlamov - 5.9
Lundqvist - 8.5
Holtby - 6.1
Fleury - 5.75
Dubnyk - 4.3
Hellebuyck - 6.2
Bobrovsky - 7.4
Allen - 4.3
Quick - 5.8
Smith - 5.6
Jones - 5.75
Murray hasn't been his best this season, but to be ahead of all those guys with the pricetags they have is pretty good value and shows that maybe he hasn't been as bad as many make him out to be. Plus he has another year at that cost. He's been prone to the soft goal this year but has also proven to get hot and go on runs.
In his last 24 starts he's 17-5-2 with a .929 save %. I think there's a lot of teams out there that would love to have those kinds of numbers from their goaltender. SJ for sure is one of them. They are being sunk by the worst 5 v 5 save % in the league. Last time I looked they were the only team in the league that was under .900 at 5 v 5.
Fleury is playing behind the number 3 possession team in the league. They're also 5th best in high danger corsi against. His 8 shutouts lead the league but still only has a .912 save %. With 8 shutouts you would hope that number is much higher than that, thus proving his inconsistencies this year as well.
The Pens currently rank 18th in possession and 18th in high danger corsi against.
I guess the point is that the grass isn't always greener elsewhere. Many teams are paying a lot more for goaltending and getting less or even subpar results. SJ could definitely use Murray type numbers and Vegas would probably be sitting a lot higher than 16th in the league (or whatever they are).
I hope they trade DeSmith over Jarry during the offseason and go into 2019-20 with Jarry/Murray at goal next year. I think you're right about DeSmith, he is what he is, and I think Jarry has starter ability. Whether he fulfills that or not remains to be seen. With Murray's injury history, the Pens need a legit starter, or starter prospect, as his backup next season.
Hmm...the numbers do paint an interesting story. My thoughts are that I feel like he is bad in the worst ways and when he does allow goals, they are often terrible things he should be stopping, which counters when he does make great saves (which he does often make). I also think his numbers might be inflated by his great run he went on upon his return. Overall, I still do not care for him and I think and have always thought that he is a substandard goaltender overall. He does play great when he goes on a run, but so do a lot of mediocre goalies. I suppose at 3.75m his numbers are good value, but I just do not want him. Maybe I am being a bit irrational when given the numbers.
America wrote:^ all this guy does is cherry pick stats that work in his favor LOL.
Murray has been garbage for the majority of his career.
That statement is the garbage. You don't have to cherry pick to see the guy won two Cups as a rookie. Or set an AHL shutout record. His lifetime winning percentage is .688, and in the playoffs .651. The majority of his career? He's finished three NHL seasons and has held the Cup over his head in two. In his last two Stanley Cup Finals games, his GAA is 0.00. In two Cup clinching games, its. 0.50. Criticism is fine, but that is one of the more asinine statements I've seen on a board which is overflowing with asinine statements.
America wrote:^ all this guy does is cherry pick stats that work in his favor LOL.
Murray has been garbage for the majority of his career.
That statement is the garbage. You don't have to cherry pick to see the guy won two Cups as a rookie. Or set an AHL shutout record. His lifetime winning percentage is .688, and in the playoffs .651. The majority of his career? He's finished three NHL seasons and has held the Cup over his head in two. In his last two Stanley Cup Finals games, his GAA is 0.00. In two Cup clinching games, its. 0.50. Criticism is fine, but that is one of the more asinine statements I've seen on a board which is overflowing with asinine statements.
My thoughts exactly. Murray, with all the injuries, bad glove, and sometimes mediocre play, is far above "garbage" and despite all his huge early success likely still has more upside even.
Record and save %. Yeah, really dug deep for those numbers to make the guy look good. He's freakin' 3rd in the league in save % over the last 25 games! These are two of the most basic stats out there, but yeah, cherry picking.
America wrote:^ all this guy does is cherry pick stats that work in his favor LOL.
Murray has been garbage for the majority of his career.
That statement is the garbage. You don't have to cherry pick to see the guy won two Cups as a rookie. Or set an AHL shutout record. His lifetime winning percentage is .688, and in the playoffs .651. The majority of his career? He's finished three NHL seasons and has held the Cup over his head in two. In his last two Stanley Cup Finals games, his GAA is 0.00. In two Cup clinching games, its. 0.50. Criticism is fine, but that is one of the more asinine statements I've seen on a board which is overflowing with asinine statements.
while I strongly disagree with the guy you are responding to. You are cherry picking stats while replying to somebody who mentioned cherry picking stats... "last two Stanley cup final games" is a perfect example of a cherry picked stat. The cup clinching games is a bit better. The win% doesn't mean a lot, especially in the regular season, because of while a goalie does control a lot of it, that's a team stat. Its the same reason why wins aren't a great stat for a pitcher in baseball but to a much lesser degree since a goalie plays the whole game while a pitcher can only get one out and get a win. Goalies earn it throughout the entire game.
Murray has been solid(not garbage like the person you quoted. He hasn't been fantastic but certainly not garbage), but the entire numbers tell you that. No need to get into less relevant or conclusive ones.
I can be as hard on Murray's play as the next person. There have been times this year when he couldn't stop a beach ball. He gets called out for it and rightly so. There are times when a gnat can't get passed him. He gets kudos for that and again rightly so. I cannot in any way shape or form think of any reason to call his play garbage though.
The cherry picked stat I'd quote in his support is, as has been mentioned many times, 2 Cups in 3 years with both Cups as a rookie. He's here for a reason and for the most part he does his job. Could he be better ? Sure but then again they all have room to improve.
Assuming the Pens make the playoffs I'm liking his playoff stats.
Cow_Master66 wrote:Removing the first 11 games, Murray's SV% = .930? What a dud!
That's crazy. The league leader is .932. So remove his extremely slow start and he's pretty much right there with the best in the league.
...and there are still those out there that say he's no good
and if we removed 11 games from every other goalie would that league leaders save% go up further than it is right now?
There is a difference between saying he isn't good, and saying he lets in untimely and soft goals. Overall I think he is pretty decent, not near the top of the league but not near the bottom either. But he is a goalie who can at times be a top 5 goalie, and at times a bottom 5 goalie. Some people focus too much on just one without viewing the complete package.
Cow_Master66 wrote:Removing the first 11 games, Murray's SV% = .930? What a dud!
That's crazy. The league leader is .932. So remove his extremely slow start and he's pretty much right there with the best in the league.
...and there are still those out there that say he's no good :face:
and if we removed 11 games from every other goalie would that league leaders save% go up further than it is right now?
There is a difference between saying he isn't good, and saying he lets in untimely and soft goals. Overall I think he is pretty decent, not near the top of the league but not near the bottom either. But he is a goalie who can at times be a top 5 goalie, and at times a bottom 5 goalie. Some people focus too much on just one without viewing the complete package.
11 random games weren’t removed. The first 11 where he really struggled were removed.
Cow_Master66 wrote:Removing the first 11 games, Murray's SV% = .930? What a dud!
That's crazy. The league leader is .932. So remove his extremely slow start and he's pretty much right there with the best in the league.
...and there are still those out there that say he's no good
and if we removed 11 games from every other goalie would that league leaders save% go up further than it is right now?
There is a difference between saying he isn't good, and saying he lets in untimely and soft goals. Overall I think he is pretty decent, not near the top of the league but not near the bottom either. But he is a goalie who can at times be a top 5 goalie, and at times a bottom 5 goalie. Some people focus too much on just one without viewing the complete package.
11 random games weren’t removed. The first 11 where he really struggled were removed.
The sample size is large enough after that.
never said they were random, I just said that if we removed 11 games from other goalies their numbers might go up as well. Also there is plenty of sample size last year where murray also struggled, it wasn't just the stretch to start this season. Like I said Murray is great at times, terrible at other times. The past 4 months he has been pretty dang good. I hope he continues the high level of play and even improves, rather then regressing to that first 11 game version.
If you take out the first 11 games where Murray really struggled + the 8 games where he somewhat struggled + the 6 games where he didn't struggle and the 15 games where he was good, Murray would have all shutouts and win the Vezina going away.
