LGP Political Discussion Thread
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
It's not that they are against government run health care, it's the reasons they are against it, death panels, illegals will get coverage, private insurances will go out of business, socialism, which aren't based on facts or evidence, if people have problems with government run health care that's fine, but a lot of what I have been hearing is nonsense. And the public OPTION isn't a government take over, it is simple an option.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Anyone interested in an analysis of life expectancy and infant mortality numbers please read this.Tico Rick wrote:Fun fact: Canada and Great Britain, two country's whose health-care systems people love to bash, both have higher life-expectancy rates than the U.S.
http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA547Com ... ealth.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I realize that this is from a conservative think tank but a lot of the points made seem solid and I think it adds to our debate here. I've often questioned the methods used across differing countries.
Life expectancy is a poor statistic for determining the efficacy of a health care system because it fails the first criterion of assuming interaction with the health care system. For example, open any newspaper and, chances are, there are stories about people who die "in their sleep," in a car accident or of some medical ailment before an ambulance ever arrives. If an individual dies with no interaction with the health care system, then his death tells us little about the quality of a health care system. Yet all such deaths are computed into the life expectancy statistic.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Why do you have so much faith that the government can run an efficient, successful health care system (not even getting into the how are we going to pay for it question)?doublem wrote:It's not that they are against government run health care, it's the reasons they are against it, death panels, illegals will get coverage, private insurances will go out of business, socialism, which aren't based on facts or evidence, if people have problems with government run health care that's fine, but a lot of what I have been hearing is nonsense. And the public OPTION isn't a government take over, it is simple an option.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Can I ask what you think is the best course of action? What would you do with health care if you had the power? I'm just curious.doublem wrote:It's not that they are against government run health care, it's the reasons they are against it, death panels, illegals will get coverage, private insurances will go out of business, socialism, which aren't based on facts or evidence, if people have problems with government run health care that's fine, but a lot of what I have been hearing is nonsense. And the public OPTION isn't a government take over, it is simple an option.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Because the government has successfully run two (Medicare and Medicaid) for the past 44 years?Bob McKenzie wrote:Why do you have so much faith that the government can run an efficient, successful health care system (not even getting into the how are we going to pay for it question)?doublem wrote:It's not that they are against government run health care, it's the reasons they are against it, death panels, illegals will get coverage, private insurances will go out of business, socialism, which aren't based on facts or evidence, if people have problems with government run health care that's fine, but a lot of what I have been hearing is nonsense. And the public OPTION isn't a government take over, it is simple an option.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Well the question is, the American government or governments in generals? Clearly there are problems with all systems, but I don't know why it is assumed that government will always screw things up, S.S., Medicare, are all government plans, sure they have problems, but are largely effective. The rest of the world as figured it out , why can't we? I support a single payer, which will never get any where close to passing in this country. I have my doubts that this country can by anything efficient at this point, and that isn't just government, how many private companies have went up recently? I really see no other options, should we let private insurances bring down costs?Bob McKenzie wrote:Why do you have so much faith that the government can run an efficient, successful health care system (not even getting into the how are we going to pay for it question)?doublem wrote:It's not that they are against government run health care, it's the reasons they are against it, death panels, illegals will get coverage, private insurances will go out of business, socialism, which aren't based on facts or evidence, if people have problems with government run health care that's fine, but a lot of what I have been hearing is nonsense. And the public OPTION isn't a government take over, it is simple an option.
And this is another issue, people are going to have to pay higher taxes, we have just faced on of the worst rescission in modern history, and there people saying that we need to cut taxes, cutting taxes is only a short term solution, has been shown by the Reagan to Bush years. No one likes it, and we need to get rid of the absurd taxes, but health care to is pretty important, maybe instead of looking at taxes as a burden, we should look at it as a duty as a citizen.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
I would do a single payer, that everyone pays into, but is not socialized like the V.A. or the British system. Private companies would still exist becasue doctors may work in private practices or for public or private hospitals. It is pointless because it will never happen politicians are too weak to bring it up, and a lot of the American people would think we would be turning into the U.S.S.R.bh wrote:Can I ask what you think is the best course of action? What would you do with health care if you had the power? I'm just curious.doublem wrote:It's not that they are against government run health care, it's the reasons they are against it, death panels, illegals will get coverage, private insurances will go out of business, socialism, which aren't based on facts or evidence, if people have problems with government run health care that's fine, but a lot of what I have been hearing is nonsense. And the public OPTION isn't a government take over, it is simple an option.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Yep you're right, and its the fringe left that has become unhinged and lost their sense of reality.doublem wrote: Enough of with bipartisan stuff, there is becoming two parties in this country, one group that lives in a fact based reality, and the other that lives in a feelings-gut based world,
Life is not fair. Thats probably one of the most important things I learned early in life, when my parents couldnt afford Air Jordans for me but seemigly all the kids living in public housing had them, but I digress.
Which ideology is it that believes in, and whats to change, the following things:
-its unfair that oil companies make too much profit when gas costs are rising and theyre raping the environment
-its unfair that ceos make so much money and fly around on corporate jets
-its unfair some people cant find jobs, or are not qualified for them
-its unfair that big fast food is making a fortune causing obesity and diabetes
-its unfair that some people didnt read their mortgage contracts and signed things they should not have
-its unfair to fail a student who just isnt as smart. effort should count as much if not more than result.
-its unfair some people dont have jobs with health insurance, probably because of the fat cats at the top
-its unfair these murderers and terrorists at Gitmo are being detained for trying to kill Americans
-its unfair to keep score in childrens sports
All of this is true and I have little problem with any of it. When you begin to oppose it is when you start to walk down the path to collectivism.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
They also have higher death rates from cancer.Tico Rick wrote:Fun fact: Canada and Great Britain, two country's whose health-care systems people love to bash, both have higher life-expectancy rates than the U.S.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Which of your rights have been violated and how?doublem wrote:The difference is one is proposing a health care bill and the other undid half the bill of rights.
How many terror attacks on American cities have there been since 9/11?
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Both are going broke and will not be sustainable going forward. http://seniorjournal.com/NEWS/Medicare/ ... Report.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Tico Rick wrote:Because the government has successfully run two (Medicare and Medicaid) for the past 44 years?
Beyond that, medicare will not reimburse doctors their full fee for services rendered. As a result more and more doctors do not even want to treat these people and lose money on the deal.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
So? Are you going to give up your rights for some alleged safety, that no one could protect you from in the first place.pittsoccer33 wrote:Which of your rights have been violated and how?doublem wrote:The difference is one is proposing a health care bill and the other undid half the bill of rights.
How many terror attacks on American cities have there been since 9/11?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warran ... ontroversy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hack job to the 4th Amendment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib ... oner_abuse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo ... ntion_camp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There goes 5,6 , 7, and 8.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
And how many of these people were/are american citizens? Our constitutional rights only apply to citizens.So? Are you going to give up your rights for some alleged safety, that no one could protect you from in the first place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warran ... ontroversy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hack job to the 4th Amendment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib ... oner_abuse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo ... ntion_camp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There goes 5,6 , 7, and 8.
And the geneva convention only applies to soliders of a given nation, not of a religion.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
No, they don't, the constitution and bill of rights are universal documents applied to all people. America does not torture, it does not hold people in camps for years without trail, those are universal rights, they are pointless if they only apply to people lucky enough to be born on our soil. Plus, they wiretapped American citizens.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
What does that mean? They are members of a nation, the religion Islam is not the problem, the actions of those individuals are. We aren't fighting a war on Islam, there are 1 billion Muslims in the world.Then it would be okay to do the same to "Christians"that bomb abortion clinicians?pittsoccer33 wrote:And how many of these people were/are american citizens? Our constitutional rights only apply to citizens.So? Are you going to give up your rights for some alleged safety, that no one could protect you from in the first place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_warran ... ontroversy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hack job to the 4th Amendment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib ... oner_abuse" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo ... ntion_camp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There goes 5,6 , 7, and 8.
And the geneva convention only applies to soliders of a given nation, not of a religion.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
Opposing corporatism and having inequalities grow between the rich and the poor lead to collectivism? Hmmm. It seems to me that you believe in some sort of fatalism? If people just accepted that they were treated unfair, to stay down and respect the powerful and people in authority, we for one wouldn't have been a nation, some people believe it is possible to change the life they were born into and make a better world for all people, not just the rich and powerful.pittsoccer33 wrote:Yep you're right, and its the fringe left that has become unhinged and lost their sense of reality.doublem wrote: Enough of with bipartisan stuff, there is becoming two parties in this country, one group that lives in a fact based reality, and the other that lives in a feelings-gut based world,
Life is not fair. Thats probably one of the most important things I learned early in life, when my parents couldnt afford Air Jordans for me but seemigly all the kids living in public housing had them, but I digress.
Which ideology is it that believes in, and whats to change, the following things:
-its unfair that oil companies make too much profit when gas costs are rising and theyre raping the environment
-its unfair that ceos make so much money and fly around on corporate jets
-its unfair some people cant find jobs, or are not qualified for them
-its unfair that big fast food is making a fortune causing obesity and diabetes
-its unfair that some people didnt read their mortgage contracts and signed things they should not have
-its unfair to fail a student who just isnt as smart. effort should count as much if not more than result.
-its unfair some people dont have jobs with health insurance, probably because of the fat cats at the top
-its unfair these murderers and terrorists at Gitmo are being detained for trying to kill Americans
-its unfair to keep score in childrens sports
All of this is true and I have little problem with any of it. When you begin to oppose it is when you start to walk down the path to collectivism.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
FYI: This has a lot more to do with lifestyles than healthcare. Who are the fattest and most unhealthy people around? Easy, US.Tico Rick wrote:Fun fact: Canada and Great Britain, two country's whose health-care systems people love to bash, both have higher life-expectancy rates than the U.S.
I take care of myself, eat well, and exercise. I also know that I need to watch what I eat because of cholesterol problems in my family. I do this so I don't have to pay for it later. I don't like having to take care of someone who didn't take care of themselves. Thousands are on the track to type 2 diabetes. Can they prevent it? Yes. Do they? no. I drink a lot. If I need a liver transplant later, do you feel that you are responsible to pay for it? I would hope not; that's my fault. There are a lot of unpreventable problems that can occur, but one of the main problems is that a lot of things that are preventable are not being prevented.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
First sentence of the Constitution: We the People of the United States.doublem wrote:No, they don't, the constitution and bill of rights are universal documents applied to all people. America does not torture, it does not hold people in camps for years without trail, those are universal rights, they are pointless if they only apply to people lucky enough to be born on our soil. Plus, they wiretapped American citizens.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
i think he meant the decleration of independance: "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"cs6687 wrote:First sentence of the Constitution: We the People of the United States.doublem wrote:No, they don't, the constitution and bill of rights are universal documents applied to all people. America does not torture, it does not hold people in camps for years without trail, those are universal rights, they are pointless if they only apply to people lucky enough to be born on our soil. Plus, they wiretapped American citizens.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
And, do you think the founders wanted those rights infringed just becasue people weren't lucky enough to be born in our country.cs6687 wrote:First sentence of the Constitution: We the People of the United States.doublem wrote:No, they don't, the constitution and bill of rights are universal documents applied to all people. America does not torture, it does not hold people in camps for years without trail, those are universal rights, they are pointless if they only apply to people lucky enough to be born on our soil. Plus, they wiretapped American citizens.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
I meant that the bill of rights were intended for all people.JoseCuervo wrote:i think he meant the decleration of independance: "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"cs6687 wrote:First sentence of the Constitution: We the People of the United States.doublem wrote:No, they don't, the constitution and bill of rights are universal documents applied to all people. America does not torture, it does not hold people in camps for years without trail, those are universal rights, they are pointless if they only apply to people lucky enough to be born on our soil. Plus, they wiretapped American citizens.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
if we did, we wouldn't have expanded past the Mississippi and killed the nativesdoublem wrote:And, do you think the founders wanted those rights infringed just becasue people weren't lucky enough to be born in our country.cs6687 wrote:First sentence of the Constitution: We the People of the United States.doublem wrote:No, they don't, the constitution and bill of rights are universal documents applied to all people. America does not torture, it does not hold people in camps for years without trail, those are universal rights, they are pointless if they only apply to people lucky enough to be born on our soil. Plus, they wiretapped American citizens.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
that's not true at all thoughdoublem wrote:I meant that the bill of rights were intended for all people.JoseCuervo wrote:i think he meant the decleration of independance: "all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"cs6687 wrote: First sentence of the Constitution: We the People of the United States.
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
So you think it is right to torture people, leave them in Gitmo for months or years becasue they aren't citizens?
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Re: Healthcare Reform Act of 2009
no, but the founders of america don't make the rules for the entire world. Just the country they founded. People in england can't have fire-arms. That violates our bill of rights not theirs.doublem wrote:So you think it is right to torture people, leave them in Gitmo for months or years becasue they aren't citizens?
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