LGP Political Discussion Thread

[DelPen]

There's a trade offr. We still have somewhat of a free market health care system that provides inovation and improvements and still has the best specialists and care on the top levels in the world. Our preventive care and general helth stinks but this is what happens when people start using insurance to pay for what should be routine, the costs rise behind the $20 copay. Insurance should be for when you face a life threatening or even altering ailment or injury. Does anyone here have insurance to cover oil changes and tires on their cars? No, it's part of keeping them maintained.

We'd be better off starting a plan where more people can become doctors, they get a free education at a federally licensed medical institute and in exchange for the degree they serve 4 years as a general practioner wherever they get placed. At that time they can train for their speciality and move on to a filed they want. If you don;t have doctors needing to pay off hundreds of thousands of debt you can lower costs for preventative and routine medicine.

[Geezer]

One of the interesting quotes I saw was that wounded vets should be asked their opinions of government health care after dealing with VA care. I've read and heard many horror stories but I don't know if they represent the exception or the rule. I do know that there were the same VA hospital concerns in the late 60's & early 70's.

[HomerPenguin]

There's a trade offr. We still have somewhat of a free market health care system that provides inovation and improvements and still has the best specialists and care on the top levels in the world. Our preventive care and general helth stinks but this is what happens when people start using insurance to pay for what should be routine, the costs rise behind the $20 copay. Insurance should be for when you face a life threatening or even altering ailment or injury. Does anyone here have insurance to cover oil changes and tires on their cars? No, it's part of keeping them maintained.

We'd be better off starting a plan where more people can become doctors, they get a free education at a federally licensed medical institute and in exchange for the degree they serve 4 years as a general practioner wherever they get placed. At that time they can train for their speciality and move on to a filed they want. If you don;t have doctors needing to pay off hundreds of thousands of debt you can lower costs for preventative and routine medicine.

That sounds like a good start, but you've got banks who won't like giving up those juicy student loans, doctors and hospitals who won't be able to use the shortage of GPs to jack up prices, and insurance companies who make big bucks on "comprehensive" plans who would lose money moving to catastrophic coverage only. It would never get by our bought-and-paid-for Congress.

[MWB]

Doctors do it all the time. My grandfather died from non-Hodgkins lymphoma. The doctors at Johns Hopkins said a bone marrow transplant might have cured his cancer but that he was too old for the procedure. He was 69. He died a few months after being denied.

That's not the point. There's a different relationship between a doctor and patient and some random person making a statement in support of some bureaucrat who thinks that "some people" are "better off" just dying off. Who is MWB to sit here and say, "some people are better off living the rest of their time comfortably with pain medication"?

Chill, man. I'm talking in generic terms that some people would rather live comfortably and would like to have that option. I'm not saying that it is what everyone has to do and I don't think that's how my post was written.

[HomerPenguin]

One of the interesting quotes I saw was that wounded vets should be asked their opinions of government health care after dealing with VA care. I've read and heard many horror stories but I don't know if they represent the exception or the rule. I do know that there were the same VA hospital concerns in the late 60's & early 70's.

The VA is in particular tatters right now, since the previous administration loved sending guys off to fight for them but couldn't wait to cut their pay and benefits in return. But the VA model, government-owned hospitals and government-employed doctors, isn't something I've seen anybody talk about.

[doublem]

There's a trade offr. We still have somewhat of a free market health care system that provides inovation and improvements and still has the best specialists and care on the top levels in the world. Our preventive care and general helth stinks but this is what happens when people start using insurance to pay for what should be routine, the costs rise behind the $20 copay. Insurance should be for when you face a life threatening or even altering ailment or injury. Does anyone here have insurance to cover oil changes and tires on their cars? No, it's part of keeping them maintained.

We'd be better off starting a plan where more people can become doctors, they get a free education at a federally licensed medical institute and in exchange for the degree they serve 4 years as a general practioner wherever they get placed. At that time they can train for their speciality and move on to a filed they want. If you don;t have doctors needing to pay off hundreds of thousands of debt you can lower costs for preventative and routine medicine.

So it's people fault now that they can't pay? How do you know when you are going to face a life threatening aliment? What if you get sick when you are a child ,and have to live if it your entire life? Are you seriously comparing an oil change to health care? Training more doctors would be good, but that isn't the main problem, it is insurance companies. America does produce new drugs all the time, but it is pointless when people can't afford them, that is the problem.

[HomerPenguin]

Are you seriously comparing an oil change to health care?

If insurance doesn't cover things like physicals, the HC equivalent of an oil change, then doctors won't be able to charge $200 plus fees for a routine physical. If Jiffy Lube charged you $200 per visit plus fees to cover the other tests they do on the car, nobody would ever get their oil changed and Jiffy Lube would find itself out of business. The same should be true of doctors.

[MWB]

Are you seriously comparing an oil change to health care?

If insurance doesn't cover things like physicals, the HC equivalent of an oil change, then doctors won't be able to charge $200 plus fees for a routine physical. If Jiffy Lube charged you $200 per visit plus fees to cover the other tests they do on the car, nobody would ever get their oil changed and Jiffy Lube would find itself out of business. The same should be true of doctors.

And this is the root of the problem. I actually just got my bill for a routine physical. The total came to $496. Luckily, insurance covered nearly all of it. But what should the cost really be? Does it actually come out to that amount for the services rendered? How much have things been jacked up for the insurance company?

[DelPen]

Are you seriously comparing an oil change to health care?

If insurance doesn't cover things like physicals, the HC equivalent of an oil change, then doctors won't be able to charge $200 plus fees for a routine physical. If Jiffy Lube charged you $200 per visit plus fees to cover the other tests they do on the car, nobody would ever get their oil changed and Jiffy Lube would find itself out of business. The same should be true of doctors.

And this is the root of the problem. I actually just got my bill for a routine physical. The total came to $496. Luckily, insurance covered nearly all of it. But what should the cost really be? Does it actually come out to that amount for the services rendered? How much have things been jacked up for the insurance company?

The insurance company will negotiate down the rate, some companies will go farther than others.

I just don't understand why they can't start with fixing Medicare and Medicaid and work on covering those 47 million, or whatever the number actually is, with a plan that works for them.

And here's another issue, let's say you grant someone who is in need the government plan. Do they need to suibmit to regular fitness tests to make sure they are doing everything they can to not jeopardize their health? Are they going to drug test? Ban smoking? Alcohol? Trans-fats?

[doublem]

Are you seriously comparing an oil change to health care?

If insurance doesn't cover things like physicals, the HC equivalent of an oil change, then doctors won't be able to charge $200 plus fees for a routine physical. If Jiffy Lube charged you $200 per visit plus fees to cover the other tests they do on the car, nobody would ever get their oil changed and Jiffy Lube would find itself out of business. The same should be true of doctors.

That is why I don't think the current proposal addresses the problems in health care. I think people will pay more when it involves there health just for the fact that most of us don't know what a price should be for a physical.

[MWB]

The insurance company will negotiate down the rate, some companies will go farther than others.

Right. So I guess what I'm wondering is, what is fair market value for a routine physical?

[doublem]

I just don't understand why they can't start with fixing Medicare and Medicaid and work on covering those 47 million, or whatever the number actually is, with a plan that works for them.

All of the 47 million aren't over 65 or in low income house holds. It isn't just poor and old people that can't pay.

And here's another issue, let's say you grant someone who is in need the government plan. Do they need to suibmit to regular fitness tests to make sure they are doing everything they can to not jeopardize their health? Are they going to drug test? Ban smoking? Alcohol? Trans-fats?

Couldn't private companies do the same thing?

[DelPen]

I just don't understand why they can't start with fixing Medicare and Medicaid and work on covering those 47 million, or whatever the number actually is, with a plan that works for them.

All of the 47 million aren't over 65 or in low income house holds. It isn't just poor and old people that can't pay.

And here's another issue, let's say you grant someone who is in need the government plan. Do they need to suibmit to regular fitness tests to make sure they are doing everything they can to not jeopardize their health? Are they going to drug test? Ban smoking? Alcohol? Trans-fats?

Couldn't private companies do the same thing?

They can and do but if I'm going to be helping foot the bill then anyone getting tax payer subsidized health coverage should have to adhere to some rules that ensure that they will be as healthy as possible.

[doublem]

How the Health Care Mess Affects Entrepreneurship

http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/2 ... eneurship/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[doublem]

I just don't understand why they can't start with fixing Medicare and Medicaid and work on covering those 47 million, or whatever the number actually is, with a plan that works for them.

All of the 47 million aren't over 65 or in low income house holds. It isn't just poor and old people that can't pay.

And here's another issue, let's say you grant someone who is in need the government plan. Do they need to suibmit to regular fitness tests to make sure they are doing everything they can to not jeopardize their health? Are they going to drug test? Ban smoking? Alcohol? Trans-fats?

Couldn't private companies do the same thing?

They can and do but if I'm going to be helping foot the bill then anyone getting tax payer subsidized health coverage should have to adhere to some rules that ensure that they will be as healthy as possible.

But you most likely won't have to pay for it.

[Geezer]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32172808/ns ... ealth_care" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
One of the mind-boggling wastes in our present system is paying health costs for illegal aliens. Can someone explain why there has to be court cases before shipping people like this guy out on the next available plane? How is someone that should not be in our country entitled to receiving even a dollar's worth of free health care?

[doublem]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32172808/ns ... ealth_care
One of the mind-boggling wastes in our present system is paying health costs for illegal aliens. Can someone explain why there has to be court cases before shipping people like this guy out on the next available plane? How is someone that should not be in our country entitled to receiving even a dollar's worth of free health care?

What should they do? The guy can't walk and has the cognitive ability of a 4th grader, the guy was hit by a drunk driver, he is a victim. Do you want to arrest him? This guy may never get to see a doctor again. Are you really that worried about money?

[Geezer]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32172808/ns ... ealth_care
One of the mind-boggling wastes in our present system is paying health costs for illegal aliens. Can someone explain why there has to be court cases before shipping people like this guy out on the next available plane? How is someone that should not be in our country entitled to receiving even a dollar's worth of free health care?

What should they do? The guy can't walk and has the cognitive ability of a 4th grader, the guy was hit by a drunk driver, he is a victim. Do you want to arrest him? This guy may never get to see a doctor again. Are you really that worried about money?

They should send him back to his home country, which they did. Why there need to be court proceedings to deport illegals, especially ones requiring 1 million + in care, is absurd. And yes, I'm worried about taxpayer money. He wouldn't have been hit by a drunk driver if he wouldn't have come here illegally. I see no legal or moral obligation to provide health care or any services to illegals and that includes any that are injured while they are here.

[doublem]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32172808/ns ... ealth_care
One of the mind-boggling wastes in our present system is paying health costs for illegal aliens. Can someone explain why there has to be court cases before shipping people like this guy out on the next available plane? How is someone that should not be in our country entitled to receiving even a dollar's worth of free health care?

What should they do? The guy can't walk and has the cognitive ability of a 4th grader, the guy was hit by a drunk driver, he is a victim. Do you want to arrest him? This guy may never get to see a doctor again. Are you really that worried about money?

They should send him back to his home country, which they did. Why there need to be court proceedings to deport illegals, especially ones requiring 1 million + in care, is absurd. And yes, I'm worried about taxpayer money. He wouldn't have been hit by a drunk driver if he wouldn't have come here illegally. I see no legal or moral obligation to provide health care or any services to illegals and that includes any that are injured while they are here.

Ahh, those court things always get in the way, the issue was a state doesn't have the authority to deport someone, it had to be a federal issue. So, let me get this straight, we spent trillions of dollars on a bailout and you are worried about 1 million, on a guy that got hit by a drunk driver, and will spend the rest of his life in a wheel chair in the hills of Guatemala. You really see no obligations to pay for a guy that got hit by a drunk driver and will never be able to walk again? Why do you think an American life is more important than someone that isn't? This is my problem with conservatives they have made the denial of compassion a virtue.

[Geezer]

What should they do? The guy can't walk and has the cognitive ability of a 4th grader, the guy was hit by a drunk driver, he is a victim. Do you want to arrest him? This guy may never get to see a doctor again. Are you really that worried about money?[/quote]
They should send him back to his home country, which they did. Why there need to be court proceedings to deport illegals, especially ones requiring 1 million + in care, is absurd. And yes, I'm worried about taxpayer money. He wouldn't have been hit by a drunk driver if he wouldn't have come here illegally. I see no legal or moral obligation to provide health care or any services to illegals and that includes any that are injured while they are here.[/quote]

Ahh, those court things always get in the way, the issue was a state doesn't have the authority to deport someone, it had to be a federal issue. So, let me get this straight, we spent trillions of dollars on a bailout and you are worried about 1 million, on a guy that got hit by a drunk driver, and will spend the rest of his life in a wheel chair in the hills of Guatemala. You really see no obligations to pay for a guy that got hit by a drunk driver and will never be able to walk again? Why do you think an American life is more important than someone that isn't? This is my problem with conservatives they have made the denial of compassion a virtue.[/quote]
Well actually I do worry about trillions of dollars that may have been largely squandared on the bailout. 6 or 7 million illegals constitute more than one million dollars. What part of the injured guy from Guatamala didn't belong here didn't you understand? Compassions got nothing to do with it. There are hundreds of millions of people in the world live horribly deprived lives. What does this situation have to with American life vs non-American life? In the universal scheme of things they would be considered equal. Personally, American life is more important to me than lives of others. There's no one in Guatamla losing any sleep over your life or mine.

[doublem]

Well actually I do worry about trillions of dollars that may have been largely squandared on the bailout. 6 or 7 million illegals constitute more than one million dollars. What part of the injured guy from Guatamala didn't belong here didn't you understand? Compassions got nothing to do with it. There are hundreds of millions of people in the world live horribly deprived lives. What does this situation have to with American life vs non-American life? In the universal scheme of things they would be considered equal. Personally, American life is more important to me than lives of others. There's no one in Guatamla losing any sleep over your life or mine.

I don't care if he is from Guatamala, he got hurt. As a human being, I think the guy should be able to get a million for the rest of his life, which really doesn't amount to that much. This isn't like other people in the world that have it bad, this is about one guy that can get medical treatment, that for some reason offends you becasue he jumped over the border. Clearly compassion has got nothing to do with it. I'm glad you admit American life is more valuable to you. And another thing it is a doctors job to make people better, not just Americans better.

[whgnailer10]

I'm sure they care about the mouths of the families we have to feed when they take jobs under-the-table for less money too. It's not about compassion it is about respecting the law and respecting each other. It's not impossibly hard to get a work visa. I've known plenty of people who have them. It may take a little time, but in the end you've done things right and you are rewarded for it.

[DropEmJayBird]

Rather than give the guy a million bucks and have him go on his way, why don't we show real compaission and have doublem take the guy into his house for the rest of his life. doublem can take care of him and his bills, and the guatamalan can receive real compassion and live out the rest of his days in a nice comfy home.

[PensFanInDC]

Rather than give the guy a million bucks and have him go on his way, why don't we show real compaission and have doublem take the guy into his house for the rest of his life. doublem can take care of him and his bills, and the guatamalan can receive real compassion and live out the rest of his days in a nice comfy home.

I was formulating a response to doublem when I read this. Thanks Jay. Enough said.

[tluke53]

Got the below in my work email. Not sure how true any of it is.

IMPORTANT: PLEASE READ TO THE END

Before you read below, just some random thoughts. Page 16 of the bill
contains the information that current insurance companies can no longer add
people to their plans. So if you change jobs or the cost goes up on your
current plan, you have no choice except to go to the government plan. All
the young people today will be on the government plan. I can easily see my
current provider throwing in the towel. Not being able to add new clients
will not grow the company. Will they continue coverage until the last client
dies off? I think not. So Obama and friends are telling the truth that you
can keep your coverage, knowing full well your days are numbered. At what
point does the lie begin?

I was appalled today when I heard about the info on page 495 or so. Hospice
is a very costly and the person will die anyway. To save those big dollars,
your mother, father, child, or maybe you will be provided "End of Life
Counseling" That makes me feel better. Now, is that one session for 10
minutes, or do I get 30 minutes? I doubt it is too much, because after all,
I will die anyway.

A couple of things should have you calling your representatives. One, why
the urgency to pass this in the next two weeks? Start thinking deeply if you
are not doing that right now. Why is time not provided to read it and make
the public aware of what is in it? I swear I heard transparency promised in
the election. I have a drawer full of print outs to prove it. Two, how will
it be funded down the road? It is no secret no one knows. Does it make sense
to cross your fingers and pass it anyway, hoping for the best. Please look
at what the government did to Social Security, which is out according to < BR>projections in 2017. What happens when healthcare is in the same boat and
are taxes are sky high already?

And lastly, consider the big picture. Small business owners will lay off
personnel to cut costs. What else can they do. Now some of you may say they
could just adjust to a new standard of living on less. I will remind you the
Congress certainly isn't setting that example and they want NO part of this
plan. Why do you think that might be? Couple this with Cap and Trade and we
have DISASTER with a capital D.

An American who cares very much about this country. This is a fight for your
kids and grandkid's future too.
Now, read below!

Obama makes his case for this Plan, with NO opposing points of view.

ABC is officially and publicly going into the tank for Obama.

So we best be paying attention.

SENIOR DEATH WARRANTS:

Obama wants to have our healthcare like Canada 's and England 's. In England
anyone over 59 cannot receive heart repairs or stents or bypass because it
is
not covered as it is too expensive and not needed. If Obama's plans in other
areas don't scare you, this one should.

When Congress passes Obama's plan it will be a Senior's Death Warrant.

Everybody that is on this mailing list is either a senior citizen,
is getting close or knows somebody that is.

Most of you know by now that the Senate version ( at least ) of the
"stimulus"
bill includes provisions for extensive rationing of health care for senior
citizens.

The author of this part of the bill, former senator and tax evader, Tom
Daschle
was credited today by Bloomberg with the following statement.
Bloomberg: Daschle says "health-care reform will not be pain free.
Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with
age instead of treating them."

Just remember that Senators and Congressmen have their own healthcare plan
that is first dollar or very low co-pay which they are guaranteed the
remainder of
their lives and are not subject to this new law if it passes.

One more thing ( we ) let them get away with.

Please use the power of the Internet to get this message out.

Talk it up at the grassroots level....

We have an election coming up in one year and a little over
four months. We have the ability to address and reverse the
dangerous direction the Obama administration and it's allies
have begun and in the interim, we can make their lives miserable.

Let's do it!

If you Agree, then send this around to your whole address book !!!