Random Penguins Fodder

[FLPensFan]

I really don't see the Pens dealing Jake. They are still a win now team ( or at least they're suppose to be). I see them signing him. 40 goal scorers don't grow on trees. He fits like a glove with Sid ( who we want to retire a Pen). He's 29, not 36. He has plenty of years ahead of him. They had no problem giving Rakell a 6 year deal (who is 1 year older than Jake).

I get that the prospect cupboards are bare. But as long as Sid is here they owe it to him to remain competitive. Easier said than done also that we can just replace Jake in UFA. Pens window is all but shut, why would a strong UFA come here? I would sign Jake and kick the can down the road a few more seasons. Maybe look to move Rust in the off-season and replenish some assets.

Trade Smith for a different top 6 option or a pick and use that money to sign someone etc. Point is I don't see them blowing it up and moving their 2nd best forward.

Letting him walk this summer for nothing is a Hextall-level mistake. I don't disagree with your points on re-signing him, but, I don't think this team is competitive beyond next year at best. So what's the point? Worse, it sounds like his agent has just said they'll wait until summer. That's a worst case scenario for the Penguins.

Big game of chicken, and if Guentzel decides that some other team can give him more money OR some other team is better equipped to get him into the playoffs and a stronger chance of winning another Cup...it doesn't matter what the Penguins viewpoint is on resigning him.

Again, losing Guentzel for zero assets is a Hextall-level mistake. If Hankinson won't negotiate at all before the trade deadline, it's incredibly stupid not to attempt to move him re-sign him this summer.

[KG]

I really don't see the Pens dealing Jake. They are still a win now team ( or at least they're suppose to be). I see them signing him. 40 goal scorers don't grow on trees. He fits like a glove with Sid ( who we want to retire a Pen). He's 29, not 36. He has plenty of years ahead of him. They had no problem giving Rakell a 6 year deal (who is 1 year older than Jake).

I get that the prospect cupboards are bare. But as long as Sid is here they owe it to him to remain competitive. Easier said than done also that we can just replace Jake in UFA. Pens window is all but shut, why would a strong UFA come here? I would sign Jake and kick the can down the road a few more seasons. Maybe look to move Rust in the off-season and replenish some assets.

Trade Smith for a different top 6 option or a pick and use that money to sign someone etc. Point is I don't see them blowing it up and moving their 2nd best forward.

Letting him walk this summer for nothing is a Hextall-level mistake. I don't disagree with your points on re-signing him, but, I don't think this team is competitive beyond next year at best. So what's the point? Worse, it sounds like his agent has just said they'll wait until summer. That's a worst case scenario for the Penguins.

Big game of chicken, and if Guentzel decides that some other team can give him more money OR some other team is better equipped to get him into the playoffs and a stronger chance of winning another Cup...it doesn't matter what the Penguins viewpoint is on resigning him.

Again, losing Guentzel for zero assets is a Hextall-level mistake. If Hankinson won't negotiate at all before the trade deadline, it's incredibly stupid not to attempt to move him re-sign him this summer.

I think Dubas really meant it when he said he will access this team at the all star break and see where we are. If we will be buyers or sellers.

I agree with you FLP, you can't lose Jake for nothing. I think Dubas has a good idea what type of contract Jake wants, it's just a matter of if he thinks it's worth it and how the team is progressing, or regressing. I'm sure Dubas has a plan in place where we either re-sign Jake or trade him with some type of soft deadlines in place.

I don't think losing him for nothing is a viable option. Although stranger things have happened. Teams do sometimes keep their pending UFA's and go their own rental route. I don't think that's a route the Pens should take.

[Maestro]

1st, top prospect and player for Jake. Got to move him.

[KG]

1st, top prospect and player for Jake. Got to move him.

Only a contender will trade for Jake. The 1st round pick will be in the mid to upper 20's. That's Sam Poulin type of player territory. Not overly exciting to me personally. Usually the team trading the best player loses the trade.

Maybe Rutherford will overpay to make the trade since we all know he has no problem overpaying for a player he targets. We'll see how it plays out. Guess I'm not looking forward to trading Jake.

[Antonio]

1st, top prospect and player for Jake. Got to move him.

Only a contender will trade for Jake. The 1st round pick will be in the mid to upper 20's. That's Sam Poulin type of player territory. Not overly exciting to me personally. Usually the team trading the best player loses the trade.

Maybe Rutherford will overpay to make the trade since we all know he has no problem overpaying for a player he targets. We'll see how it plays out. Guess I'm not looking forward to trading Jake.

Well except for the irony that Jake was a 3rd rounder. I mean, late firsts can be superb players still, although overall we all know the math behind picks and their success at every position and stage in the draft. Everything is a gamble overall but I would rather have a 17th pick than Jake for 8 more years when he is going to make 0 difference on this team being not terrible. It also sounds, from the quote from his agent, that Jake has none of the idiotic sentimentalities that this organization suffers from leading it to make bad decisions and personnel moves...he sounds like he wants to A) get paid and B) win and knows he will likely do better with both elsewhere. I don't think Jake cares about staying here if it is not the best deal for him.

[Guinness]

1st, top prospect and player for Jake. Got to move him.

Only a contender will trade for Jake. The 1st round pick will be in the mid to upper 20's. That's Sam Poulin type of player territory. Not overly exciting to me personally. Usually the team trading the best player loses the trade.

Maybe Rutherford will overpay to make the trade since we all know he has no problem overpaying for a player he targets. We'll see how it plays out. Guess I'm not looking forward to trading Jake.

Well except for the irony that Jake was a 3rd rounder. I mean, late firsts can be superb players still, although overall we all know the math behind picks and their success at every position and stage in the draft. Everything is a gamble overall but I would rather have a 17th pick than Jake for 8 more years when he is going to make 0 difference on this team being not terrible. It also sounds, from the quote from his agent, that Jake has none of the idiotic sentimentalities that this organization suffers from leading it to make bad decisions and personnel moves...he sounds like he wants to A) get paid and B) win and knows he will likely do better with both elsewhere. I don't think Jake cares about staying here if it is not the best deal for him.

Wow that kind of surprises me given the success he's had with Sid. I'm not doubting you, but could you provide the link? I'd like to read that.

If I'm Jake, I'd stay here at a team friendly rate (not tooooo team friendly of course) and try to be a part of the rebuild. He has to think that Sid has a good 4-5 years in him, so I'd sign a 6x9 deal and go with it. Not leaving too much on the table there, you make a butt-load of money, and you get to be a franchise icon with the likes of Lemieux, Jagr, Coffey, Francis, Stevens, Recchi, Crosby, Malkin, etc.

I don't know... maybe I'm a sentimentalist... but I think I could definitely be happy with $54 million and be a legend in the only city you played.

Just my opinion.

[Antonio]

3rd round. 77th. On his espn player page and here is Wikipedia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Guentzel

If you were referring to the comments by his agent, someone else posted it up here a ways. Here is a quote from his agent...

"Could it get ugly? Yes, it could. Kyle has to make decisions, too, which way the team is going and the investment he’s going to make with Jake. Is it the same direction? It’s going to come down to how they play, and we’ll put our heads together. … All the things that go into trade deadlines, (Kyle) might look into what he can get for Jake or what it costs to sign him. There’s a lot that will happen in two months, and I don’t know the answers to that. But I do know Jake loves Pittsburgh. He’s a hockey player. He’s had some good success and fun in that city. We’ll see."

https://triblive.com/sports/penguins-fo ... al-status/

Definitely reads a lot more focused on winning and getting paid than staying at all costs. Sure, it's his agent but his agent I'm sure is not saying stuff his client is diametrically opposed to. I'm not saying he wouldn't stay or even that he has zero interest in staying, but it sounds like he is young to swayed a lot more by the prospect of winning and getting 2, 3 or 4 more million a year than some might expect.

[FLPensFan]

1st, top prospect and player for Jake. Got to move him.

Only a contender will trade for Jake. The 1st round pick will be in the mid to upper 20's. That's Sam Poulin type of player territory. Not overly exciting to me personally. Usually the team trading the best player loses the trade.

Maybe Rutherford will overpay to make the trade since we all know he has no problem overpaying for a player he targets. We'll see how it plays out. Guess I'm not looking forward to trading Jake.

Well except for the irony that Jake was a 3rd rounder. I mean, late firsts can be superb players still, although overall we all know the math behind picks and their success at every position and stage in the draft. Everything is a gamble overall but I would rather have a 17th pick than Jake for 8 more years when he is going to make 0 difference on this team being not terrible. It also sounds, from the quote from his agent, that Jake has none of the idiotic sentimentalities that this organization suffers from leading it to make bad decisions and personnel moves...he sounds like he wants to A) get paid and B) win and knows he will likely do better with both elsewhere. I don't think Jake cares about staying here if it is not the best deal for him.

Wow that kind of surprises me given the success he's had with Sid. I'm not doubting you, but could you provide the link? I'd like to read that.

If I'm Jake, I'd stay here at a team friendly rate (not tooooo team friendly of course) and try to be a part of the rebuild. He has to think that Sid has a good 4-5 years in him, so I'd sign a 6x9 deal and go with it. Not leaving too much on the table there, you make a butt-load of money, and you get to be a franchise icon with the likes of Lemieux, Jagr, Coffey, Francis, Stevens, Recchi, Crosby, Malkin, etc.

I don't know... maybe I'm a sentimentalist... but I think I could definitely be happy with $54 million and be a legend in the only city you played.

Just my opinion.

Quite honestly if I'm Jake...I go to the team I think has the best chance to win in the next 3-4 years...and that's not Pittsburgh. Just chasing the money is one thing, but, players play to win the championship. It's what drives most players, and I don't know how Jake looks at Pittsburgh and decides that staying here is what is best for his career.

If I'm Jake, I'm hoping someone like Colorado, New Jersey, Rangers, or Carolina offers me a contract. All of those teams have younger cores, are on top or on the rise, and have much better odds of winning a Cup than Pittsburgh over the next several years.

[Fast B]

1st, top prospect and player for Jake. Got to move him.

Only a contender will trade for Jake. The 1st round pick will be in the mid to upper 20's. That's Sam Poulin type of player territory. Not overly exciting to me personally. Usually the team trading the best player loses the trade.

Maybe Rutherford will overpay to make the trade since we all know he has no problem overpaying for a player he targets. We'll see how it plays out. Guess I'm not looking forward to trading Jake.

Well except for the irony that Jake was a 3rd rounder. I mean, late firsts can be superb players still, although overall we all know the math behind picks and their success at every position and stage in the draft. Everything is a gamble overall but I would rather have a 17th pick than Jake for 8 more years when he is going to make 0 difference on this team being not terrible. It also sounds, from the quote from his agent, that Jake has none of the idiotic sentimentalities that this organization suffers from leading it to make bad decisions and personnel moves...he sounds like he wants to A) get paid and B) win and knows he will likely do better with both elsewhere. I don't think Jake cares about staying here if it is not the best deal for him.

Wow that kind of surprises me given the success he's had with Sid. I'm not doubting you, but could you provide the link? I'd like to read that.

If I'm Jake, I'd stay here at a team friendly rate (not tooooo team friendly of course) and try to be a part of the rebuild. He has to think that Sid has a good 4-5 years in him, so I'd sign a 6x9 deal and go with it. Not leaving too much on the table there, you make a butt-load of money, and you get to be a franchise icon with the likes of Lemieux, Jagr, Coffey, Francis, Stevens, Recchi, Crosby, Malkin, etc.

I don't know... maybe I'm a sentimentalist... but I think I could definitely be happy with $54 million and be a legend in the only city you played.

Just my opinion.

Quite honestly if I'm Jake...I go to the team I think has the best chance to win in the next 3-4 years...and that's not Pittsburgh. Just chasing the money is one thing, but, players play to win the championship. It's what drives most players, and I don't know how Jake looks at Pittsburgh and decides that staying here is what is best for his career.

If I'm Jake, I'm hoping someone like Colorado, New Jersey, Rangers, or Carolina offers me a contract. All of those teams have younger cores, are on top or on the rise, and have much better odds of winning a Cup than Pittsburgh over the next several years.

Yeah, that's what Hossa said.

(I'm kidding and mostly agree with you, couldn't pass up the joke though.)

[FLPensFan]

Only a contender will trade for Jake. The 1st round pick will be in the mid to upper 20's. That's Sam Poulin type of player territory. Not overly exciting to me personally. Usually the team trading the best player loses the trade.

Maybe Rutherford will overpay to make the trade since we all know he has no problem overpaying for a player he targets. We'll see how it plays out. Guess I'm not looking forward to trading Jake.

Well except for the irony that Jake was a 3rd rounder. I mean, late firsts can be superb players still, although overall we all know the math behind picks and their success at every position and stage in the draft. Everything is a gamble overall but I would rather have a 17th pick than Jake for 8 more years when he is going to make 0 difference on this team being not terrible. It also sounds, from the quote from his agent, that Jake has none of the idiotic sentimentalities that this organization suffers from leading it to make bad decisions and personnel moves...he sounds like he wants to A) get paid and B) win and knows he will likely do better with both elsewhere. I don't think Jake cares about staying here if it is not the best deal for him.

Wow that kind of surprises me given the success he's had with Sid. I'm not doubting you, but could you provide the link? I'd like to read that.

If I'm Jake, I'd stay here at a team friendly rate (not tooooo team friendly of course) and try to be a part of the rebuild. He has to think that Sid has a good 4-5 years in him, so I'd sign a 6x9 deal and go with it. Not leaving too much on the table there, you make a butt-load of money, and you get to be a franchise icon with the likes of Lemieux, Jagr, Coffey, Francis, Stevens, Recchi, Crosby, Malkin, etc.

I don't know... maybe I'm a sentimentalist... but I think I could definitely be happy with $54 million and be a legend in the only city you played.

Just my opinion.

Quite honestly if I'm Jake...I go to the team I think has the best chance to win in the next 3-4 years...and that's not Pittsburgh. Just chasing the money is one thing, but, players play to win the championship. It's what drives most players, and I don't know how Jake looks at Pittsburgh and decides that staying here is what is best for his career.

If I'm Jake, I'm hoping someone like Colorado, New Jersey, Rangers, or Carolina offers me a contract. All of those teams have younger cores, are on top or on the rise, and have much better odds of winning a Cup than Pittsburgh over the next several years.

Yeah, that's what Hossa said.

(I'm kidding and mostly agree with you, couldn't pass up the joke though.)

Ha! Nice one!

Hossa did the reverse. He went from a younger team just getting into their prime years, to an older team just about ready to blow it all up. Would kind of be like MacKinnon saying he was leaving the Avalanche to sign with Pittsburgh.

[Puck-Lurker]

If Guentzel wants a cup, he shouldn't stay. If he decides early on he's not resigning out of some sentimental feeling, it would save everyone a lot of time. Would be nice if Pens could get something for him this season and/or next. But I think Pens will remain within reach of the playoffs and never make it, keep Guentzel until the end and he walks for nothing.

Anything more will be a surprise.

[ahawk9]

I love Jake - he has great hockey sense and great hands, among other great attributes - and it would pain me to lose him... but I believe it would be in the best interests of the Pens long-term to trade him at the deadline to the highest bidder. He could bring a king's ransom at the deadline from a team poised to make a deep run. It would be a boon to the Pens' system, which is in dire need of replenishing.

It may not make Sid happy, but he also might see the benefits to the last couple years of his career if some of these assets pan out in a nice way. With Jake, they are a bubble playoff team at best. Without him, they are a bubble playoff team at best. So, despite how much it would hurt me for sentimental reasons, I think Dubas has to look at a trade. They cannot either barely miss the playoffs or barely squeak in a get waxed again and then lose him for nothing.

[DelPen]

Anyone else excited to get Rust off LTIR in February?

[lemieuxReturns]

I have already accepted that Jake is gone. It sucks too, because in a way, with Letang and Geno both taking FAR LESS than they deserve, it should in theory have allowed them to keep a guy like Jake, even at market price. But when you spend 10M on EK and another 5M on Graves it hits the offense.

I like EK, but he isn't 4M better than Letang. Letang has 1 less point than EK this season with far less PP time. I liked the EK deal but he has to start producing at the level that we expected when we acquired him. To spend this much on defense is never going to work. It cuts the knees out from the forward group, and you have the same scenario we have all seen year after year where lines 1 & 2 are the only lines producing.

[FLPensFan]

I have already accepted that Jake is gone. It sucks too, because in a way, with Letang and Geno both taking FAR LESS than they deserve, it should in theory have allowed them to keep a guy like Jake, even at market price. But when you spend 10M on EK and another 5M on Graves it hits the offense.

I like EK, but he isn't 4M better than Letang. Letang has 1 less point than EK this season with far less PP time. I liked the EK deal but he has to start producing at the level that we expected when we acquired him. To spend this much on defense is never going to work. It cuts the knees out from the forward group, and you have the same scenario we have all seen year after year where lines 1 & 2 are the only lines producing.

I'm not going to put all the blame on Sullivan...but I'm going to blame Sullivan for EK.

Sully made comments about working with EK on his defensive play at one point...to a 33 year old Norris Trophy winner? You're going to try and change a 33 year old generational talent's way of playing????

All one needs to do is look at highlights of Karlsson's goals from last year. Yes, he's still getting those point shot goals, but what is missing is Karlsson completely controlling the puck, Karlsson in the slot, Karlsson out in front leading the offense, Karlsson on a breakaway. I don't think Karlsson is allowed to be himself in our system, which means you aren't going to get his normal production. And I firmly believe he's been told by Sullivan to limit those types of high risk plays...even though that's what Karlsson thrives on.

Another indicator of this...Karlsson is on pace for 189 shots on goal this season. His career numbers have him at 227 shots on goal per season. 40 shots is a pretty significant difference.

[KG]

Yeah, before any trade of weight is made, I would bring in a new coaching staff personally. Not even sure why I'm wasting my time typing this though, since we all know that won't happen.

[lemieuxReturns]

1st, top prospect and player for Jake. Got to move him.

If you are trading Jake this season, you are giving up on the season. (in my opinion).
If I am Dubas and am trading Jake, I am trading MP too.

MP has had good years and bad years. He is having another good year and has one more year on his contract after this year. If you are at the point where you are trading away your good players for a retool/rebuild then I am also trading MP. Right now, MP would bring back a similar package or more than Jake. I would not want to take a risk that MP gets hurt or has a bad year next year and you cannot get the same trade value. It also accelerates the rebuild/retool by a year as opposed to waiting one season.

If we could snag a couple first round picks, a couple top prospects, and a couple young roster players for 2 players we probably cannot afford in the near-term, I think you make those moves.

[Antonio]

Going to be honest, I had not considered moving MP, but if the return is real, that's absolutely a great move. Assuming of course you could get a serious haul, otherwise I would keep him. Anyone think MP could net a first?

As for the Sullivan, EK, etc stuff... the equine couldn't be more deceased. It is what it is until they fire him.

[KG]

1st, top prospect and player for Jake. Got to move him.

If you are trading Jake this season, you are giving up on the season. (in my opinion).
If I am Dubas and am trading Jake, I am trading MP too.

MP has had good years and bad years. He is having another good year and has one more year on his contract after this year. If you are at the point where you are trading away your good players for a retool/rebuild then I am also trading MP. Right now, MP would bring back a similar package or more than Jake. I would not want to take a risk that MP gets hurt or has a bad year next year and you cannot get the same trade value. It also accelerates the rebuild/retool by a year as opposed to waiting one season.

If we could snag a couple first round picks, a couple top prospects, and a couple young roster players for 2 players we probably cannot afford in the near-term, I think you make those moves.

I don't know if the Pens will go into an actual "rebuild" with Sid still here. A re-tool would be more like it. I think if they trade Jake they would want a younger, established player to take his spot in the lineup, and then get some future assets as well. The half-pregnant approach, which usually doesn't work, unless you're Boston.

MP is interesting. He is going into the last year of his deal. I agree we could get a nice haul for him. The Devils are looking for D men badly and have a ton of young players. Really tough decision for Dubas here. I think Dubas will try to re-tool and keep the team competitive while also trying to accumulate futures. Again, tough to do, but if we decide to go down that road we do have some players with value.

[Antonio]

Agreed although the problem in my opinion, is that the retool window was last year or two years ago. The new contracts and bevy of nmc make a real retool unrealistic I think. I do expect a half assed half pregnant approach, as you say, instead of a commitment to one or the other. That's what bothers me most as a fan... the lack of non emotional decisions and a commitment to making the team as good as it can be again in as short a time, instead of the feel good keep the band together **** that has all but guaranteed an extended period of mediocrity and poor performance. The situation was not a fait accompli before but we forced a series of poor choices and self delusion instead of focusing on the future by being realistic.

Now I'm very curious what MP could yield. He's having an excellent season and his value, like Jake has probably never been higher. For me, if Jake and MP together could yield 2 firsts, a young roster player, a quality prospect that should actually play and maybe a another pick, I would move them. Not sure if that is realistic but I don't see it as insane on its face.

[KG]

Ned gets the nod tonight in Philly....

[FLPensFan]

1st, top prospect and player for Jake. Got to move him.

If you are trading Jake this season, you are giving up on the season. (in my opinion).
If I am Dubas and am trading Jake, I am trading MP too.

MP has had good years and bad years. He is having another good year and has one more year on his contract after this year. If you are at the point where you are trading away your good players for a retool/rebuild then I am also trading MP. Right now, MP would bring back a similar package or more than Jake. I would not want to take a risk that MP gets hurt or has a bad year next year and you cannot get the same trade value. It also accelerates the rebuild/retool by a year as opposed to waiting one season.

If we could snag a couple first round picks, a couple top prospects, and a couple young roster players for 2 players we probably cannot afford in the near-term, I think you make those moves.

I don't know if the Pens will go into an actual "rebuild" with Sid still here. A re-tool would be more like it. I think if they trade Jake they would want a younger, established player to take his spot in the lineup, and then get some future assets as well. The half-pregnant approach, which usually doesn't work, unless you're Boston.

MP is interesting. He is going into the last year of his deal. I agree we could get a nice haul for him. The Devils are looking for D men badly and have a ton of young players. Really tough decision for Dubas here. I think Dubas will try to re-tool and keep the team competitive while also trying to accumulate futures. Again, tough to do, but if we decide to go down that road we do have some players with value.

The problem is, teams out of the playoffs aren't likely to be opting to trade for Jake at the deadline. The teams in the playoffs are going to want to give up futures, and not pieces off of their roster, to acquire Jake. Trading Jake and getting a 40-60 point player under 24 in return is likely damn near impossible.

In regards to rebuild vs retool, a rebuild is easy to start...a retool is not. A rebuild...you sell off Ned, Acciari, Pettersson, Jake, and Eller...and put feelers out there on Rust, Rakell, Smith, EK, and Jarry. A retool...you've got to find a way to move out guys like Carter, Acciari, Eller, Graves, etc, and somehow get younger and better players back in return. With the lack of assets they have in terms of picks and prospects, I don't think they have enough to successfully retool.

[Dynasty1970]

You cannot rebuild or Retool with Sullivan remaining Head Coach. He needs to go. If that is a non starter then it doesn't matter which direction they decide to go because Sully cannot get them to the promise land.

[BigMcK]

Keep in mind, Jake knows Sullivan's system. His. Entire. Career. He is a rare breed who has flourished under Sullivan, unlike bringing in any other player who has to learn (be beaten to submission to play) Sullivan's system. Will Jake flourish under another system, playing with new linemates if he is traded? In a year from now another team's fans might be asking on a message board, "Why have 7 more years of this Jake POS ... What was our GM smoking?!?"

I am still of the mindset that everyone on this roster not named Crosby is available for the right price. Coaching staff included.

[lemieuxReturns]

It looks like Nylander is working on a 8 x 11.25M -

Nylander is 1 year and 7 months younger than Jake.
Nylander has 480 points in 556 career games.
Jake has 456 points in 489 career games.

I would agree with others that say Jake's next contract will be less than Nylander's BUT I would say it is going to be a LOT LOT more than 8M which has been speculated. The difference in age and stats is not 3.25M but more like 1.25M

Trading Jake seems like it is going to be more and more of a possibility than ever.

Well. Jake is definitely going to be 10M at a minimum.