LGP Political Discussion Thread

[pittsoccer33]

Do you think it would be easier to pass Obamacare with 50% unemployment of 5% unemployment?

[shafnutz05]

By the way - I'm looking at you, Shaf - CBS news reported yesterday that currently 61% of people want a public option. I remember that number being in the 70's when it all started, before going down to 50 or so when the right began scaring people we're heading toward socialism communism.

The most recent survey from Rasmussen, taken this past Monday.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... are_reform

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 49% are opposed to the plan.
Intensity is still stronger among those who oppose the push to change the nation’s health care system: 25% Strongly Favor the plan while 39% are Strongly Opposed.

Since July, support has generally remained between 41% and 46%. Last week, the effort was supported by 45% of voters. Two weeks ago, it was supported by 42%.

Rasmussen Reports continues to track public opinion on the health care plan on a weekly basis. Next week’s update will give an indication as to whether these numbers reflect a trend of growing support or are merely statistical noise.

As has been the case for months, Democrats favor the plan while Republicans and voters not affiliated with either major party are opposed. The latest numbers show support from 79% of those in the president’s party. The plan is opposed by 78% of Republicans and 61% of unaffiliated voters.

(Want a free daily e-mail update? If it's in the news, it's in our polls). Rasmussen Reports updates are also available on Twitter or Facebook.

Fifty-six percent (52%) of voters now say passage of the legislation will increase health care costs while 45% say it will hurt the quality of care.

Still, 54% now say the reform plan is at least somewhat likely to become law. That figure includes 19% who say passage is Very Likely. The debate has now moved to the Senate where a different version of the legislation is expected to emerge.

[shafnutz05]

Do you think it would be easier to pass Obamacare with 50% unemployment of 5% unemployment?

People are going to be much less likely to support massive spending/entitlement programs when the economy is doing well and unemployment is low. Again...Barack Obama knew exactly what he was doing when he pushed that stimulus. It was NEVER DESIGNED TO CREATE PRIVATE SECTOR JOBS. It was designed to add jobs to the government bureaucracy, and fund pet projects for the politicians that voted for it.

[shafnutz05]

Sarcastic, one thing you have to keep in mind. When CBS News asks respondents if they favor a public option, how do they formulate the question? For example:

"Do you support a public-run insurance option, available to all, that will feature an "insurance exchange" where consumers can compare prices and coverage and pick the one that is best for them?"

Damn...that sounds pretty reasonable, doesn't it? They aren't surveying on the specific bill in Congress, they are surveying on the concept of a public option, which most people don't even understand anyway.

[pittsoccer33]

He does not like this country as founded. His books and his comments say as much. The founding fathers failed by not addressing redistribution of wealth. He said that. He believes that. He doesnt think most people deserve what they have and want to see it taken from them.

[Gaucho]

[shafnutz05]

You can address my valid points with and all you want. But you can not sit here and tell me that the Obama Administration ever really thought that trillion dollar wasted stimulus was ever going to stimulate private sector job growth. And they are now telling us the effects have mostly passed. Where did all of that money go?! How can you expect me to trust this same government, which pissed away over a trillion dollars and somehow made unemployment WORSE, to take the reins of our healthcare system and spend a few trillion more dollars?

I don't know if you were me or pittsoccer, but I don't feel like I am being unreasonable here.

[Sarcastic]

Medicare's denials are higher because of medicare fraud. Doctors take advantage of the system and milk it for every penny they can, often ordering unnecessary tests and procedures and scheduling equally unnecessary appointments just so they can collect the paycheck. It should actually be a lot higher than 7%.

Medicare fraud does exist, but as a health care lawyer who represents both physicians and hospitals, and a man with more than a half-dozen doctors in my family, I can say that your blanket smearing of doctors is simply not true. Medicare reimbursements for many items and services is less than cost. Doctors lose money on many if not most Medicare patients. That's one of the dirty secrets of healthcare costs in this country. The federal government pays Medicare rates that are less than break-even, and expects doctors and hospitals to make up the difference by charging their private-insurance patients more. Private insurance subsidizes Medicare. Why would doctors schedule “unnecessary appointments” when they lose money on each one?

There was a special on either 60 Minutes or 20/20 a couple months back about healthcare fraud in Miami. I think the number was 80 or 90% - of all claims - that were fraudulent. Unbelievable. They said that organized crime, gangs that normally dealt with drugs, have moved onto this kind of fraud because it was that easy. A person can open up a fake clinic, buy a list of patients from a thief, and start filing claims. Get paid a million bucks in the first month, close up shop, start another one elsewhere. Medicare has no way of checking, because money is paid immediately and they don't have enough workers to investigate claims as they come. I was watching the special with my jaw on the floor, it was so unreal how screwed up our healthcare system is.

[pittsoccer33]

and that medicare system is run by the government and we are supposed to believe passing a massive expansion of it will somehow save money.

[Sarcastic]

and that medicare system is run by the government

We have a bad government - we can agree on that.

[HomerPenguin]

Sarcastic, one thing you have to keep in mind. When CBS News asks respondents if they favor a public option, how do they formulate the question? For example:

"Do you support a public-run insurance option, available to all, that will feature an "insurance exchange" where consumers can compare prices and coverage and pick the one that is best for them?"

Damn...that sounds pretty reasonable, doesn't it? They aren't surveying on the specific bill in Congress, they are surveying on the concept of a public option, which most people don't even understand anyway.

Yeah, this is partly right and partly not so much. If Rasmussen asked me whether or not I supported the House bill, I'd answer no, but that's really not because I fear that a public option might put our beneficent insurance company overlords out of business. Making the extrapolation that all opposition to the current reform bill comes from people who want to maintain the status quo, or because they think the bill goes too far, is a pretty big leap. Plenty of people are opposed to what's being debated right now because it doesn't go far enough.

[Sarcastic]

and that medicare system is run by the government and we are supposed to believe passing a massive expansion of it will somehow save money.

This bill sucks - we can agree on that too.

[Gaucho]

You can address my valid points with and all you want. But you can not sit here and tell me that the Obama Administration ever really thought that trillion dollar wasted stimulus was ever going to stimulate private sector job growth. And they are now telling us the effects have mostly passed. Where did all of that money go?! How can you expect me to trust this same government, which pissed away over a trillion dollars and somehow made unemployment WORSE, to take the reins of our healthcare system and spend a few trillion more dollars?

I don't know if you were me or pittsoccer, but I don't feel like I am being unreasonable here.

First of all, I am not here to defend Obama in any way. I never viewed him as some sort of savior. He is still only the lesser of two evils. I don't view him as a "socialist" in any way either. To claim that he is is simply absurd. To claim that he wants as many people to be out of jobs as possible is beyond absurd. Stating that unemployed people don't mind being unemployed as long as the government takes care of them is not only absurd, it is cynical and offensive.

And China, yeah, great example. Capitalism as its worst in a country that still is a so-called "communist" regime. The economy is booming, so who cares about human rights or "freedom" or about the conditions most people in China are working.

[Sarcastic]

Great point, Gaucho. Human slavery. Oh, sweet Capitalism.

[Shyster]

There was a special on either 60 Minutes or 20/20 a couple months back about healthcare fraud in Miami. I think the number was 80 or 90% - of all claims - that were fraudulent. Unbelievable. They said that organized crime, gangs that normally dealt with drugs, have moved onto this kind of fraud because it was that easy. A person can open up a fake clinic, buy a list of patients from a thief, and start filing claims. Get paid a million bucks in the first month, close up shop, start another one elsewhere. Medicare has no way of checking, because money is paid immediately and they don't have enough workers to investigate claims as they come. I was watching the special with my jaw on the floor, it was so unreal how screwed up our healthcare system is.

All true. Florida seems to be a hotbed of Medicare fraud. A great deal of that fraud relates to durable medical equipment (canes, wheelchairs, etc.), prosthetics, drugs, and related supplies (oxygen tanks and the like). You don't have to be a licensed medical professional in order to register as a supplier of those items/services. The OIG did some studies a couple of years ago that found plenty of billing Florida DME suppliers that didn't exist anywhere except on paper. That history of fraud is where the DMEPOS Competitive Bidding Program came from (which has been repeatedly delayed).

[Sarcastic]

Let me just add that my view is that there has to be a proper balance between the entrepreneurship of Capitalism and workers' rights & some social programs to make everybody happy. Thank you.

[shafnutz05]

First of all, I am not here to defend Obama in any way. I never viewed him as some sort of savior. He is still only the lesser of two evils. I don't view him as a "socialist" in any way either. To claim that he is is simply absurd. To claim that he wants as many people to be out of jobs as possible is beyond absurd. Stating that unemployed people don't mind being unemployed as long as the government takes care of them is not only absurd, it is cynical and offensive.

And China, yeah, great example. Capitalism as its worst in a country that still is a so-called "communist" regime. The economy is booming, so who cares about human rights or "freedom" or about the conditions most people in China are working.

ok ok, I was out to lunch....

1) China's human rights record is HORRIBLE. End of story. If they could combine their economic prowess with western human rights, that would be quite a country.

2) I was being partly satirical, partly mocking when I said that Obama is tanking the economy. So far, his actions since he took office suggest one of two things:

a. He is an intellectual lightweight that doesn't grasp basic economic principles, and is more concerned with pursuing ideological goals than passing economically beneficial legislation
b. He is doing it on purpose.

I think the answer is A, of course. I know you aren't defending Obama.

[shafnutz05]

Let me just add that my view is that there has to be a proper balance between the entrepreneurship of Capitalism and workers' rights & some social programs to make everybody happy. Thank you.

Well said.

I was NOT defending China's human rights abuses or anything else that goes on over there. Merely pointing out that an authoritarian government somehow as better and more free economic policies than we do, and it's working.

[Sarcastic]

Merely pointing out that an authoritarian government somehow as better and more free economic policies than we do, and it's working.

And we better do something, because they're going uuuuuup, we're going doooooown.

I was watching a Ron Paul interview on YouTube over the weekend, where he said the US is already bankrupt. That even if we sold all the land we have in this country, we'd still be bankrupt. Sad, isn't it.

[shafnutz05]

I was watching a Ron Paul interview on YouTube over the weekend, where he said the US is already bankrupt. That even if we sold all the land we have in this country, we'd still be bankrupt. Sad, isn't it.

Yes indeed...I'll admit. I made fun of the Ron Paul supporters sometimes during the run up to the election.

No I really feel like a fool

[Sarcastic]

I think this is it.

[youtube][/youtube]

[Sarcastic]

I was watching a Ron Paul interview on YouTube over the weekend, where he said the US is already bankrupt. That even if we sold all the land we have in this country, we'd still be bankrupt. Sad, isn't it.

Yes indeed...I'll admit. I made fun of the Ron Paul supporters sometimes during the run up to the election.

No I really feel like a fool

I don't necessarily agree with everything he says. There are things I read that were kinda nuts, IMO. But he is a true patriot and I know he wants best for the country. Plus, the fact that he tells it like it is makes me want to respect him that much more.

[GaryRissling]

First of all, I am not here to defend Obama in any way. I never viewed him as some sort of savior. He is still only the lesser of two evils. I don't view him as a "socialist" in any way either. To claim that he is is simply absurd.

I have to take umbrage with this.

unions are inherently a socialist institution, and a president who has usurped bankruptcy proceedings in the case of GM in order to give ownership of the company to the union is, well, not a strong supporter of capitalism.

Unions (as I referenced in an earlier post) are also being very influential in carving out our immigration reform, which will also run counter to free market forces.

The notion of promoting so-called "green jobs" is also just a pseudonym for government-subsidized jobs, which, again, is hardly allowing market forces to work.

And frankly, I don't feel the free market love in any version of health care reform that doesn't include interstate competition either.

It was on Politico today, I believe, that the AFL-CIO is working with key Dems in congress on a jobs bill that they hope to pass in the winter. Bringing market forces to bear will be paramount in the discussion, I'm sure.

Then there was the old (2002?) interview where he stated the flaw in the US constitution was that it only stated what the government could not do to its citizenry, and that is should state more on what the government should do it's people's behalf....

The whole notion of creating a board to evaluate systemic risk in our economy and take over companies whose failure may pose a systemic risk to our economic system is a proud capitalist idea, for sure.

By his actions and statements, and with clear examples of each, I argue that he is no fan of capitalism. The GM example, in particular, spells out his philosophy very clearly IMO - as he was very hands-on in the process to save the union and screw the investors and screw the sacred right to private property that is fundamental in a capitalist society.

[pittsoccer33]

speaking of unions http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=116238" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The labor union backed by President Obama to the point he expressed the desire to "paint the nation purple with SEIU" is threatening action against a Pennsylvania city for allowing a Boy Scout to build a park trail for his Eagle project.

Kevin Anderson, 17, worked more than 200 hours on weekends to clear a 1,000-foot walking and biking path at Kimmets Lock Park in east Allentown, putting him in the crosshairs of the local Service Employees International Union, reported the Allentown Morning Call.

Local SEIU chief Nick Balzano told the Allentown City Council the union might file a grievance against the city for allowing Anderson to work on the project.

[shafnutz05]

It is disgusting how much power unions have in this country. I am happy that Pennsylvania is a right-to-work state. The fact that in some states you HAVE to belong to a union to work in some fields is absolutely outrageous. And the above excerpt makes me want to kick Nick Balzano's teeth in.