Random Penguins Fodder

[BigMcK]

Are the Penguins, with a turned upside down lego box of mix-matched pieces on the bottom six really entertaining a trade of Guentzel? Really?

Areas to address: Head Knocker defense, and aggressive winger.

Sorry, from what I saw last night, Graves is tall, not a Head Knocker. Skates well, throws pucks to the net, nothing else. Pettersson at least provided a glove wash in Period 3.

Give it a month to see where the team stands in points. Preseason media reports were Guentzel would be back in December. Maybe give him some slack before selling low.

[Skatingpen]

When are we going to give up wishing they get a head knocker? For the record I agree and have said this for years, but the pens just won’t do it. Haven’t protected their stars in decades, with any amount consistently

[Three Stars]

Ask the Toronto Maple Leafs and Timothy Liljegren how having a head knocker and protecting their stars is going for them.

[KG]

What does Garland offer that the Penguins don't already have? If they can trade a Rust or a Jake to make the salaries match, fine we can discuss why that's a good/bad deal, but I wouldn't put much effort into taking that contract.

I'm not a fan of the player or the contract, but if the Penguins were to make a move, I wonder if something like POJ & DOC for Garland and a pick (with retention) would work. I'd rather have DOC because he has some size and Garland's body type is the same as 50% or more of our forwards...but while overpaid, Garland has put up consistent 3rd line numbers and 10 games into the season, DOC is struggling and not seizing his opportunity with more ice time. POJ seems to keep getting pushed further down the depth chart.

But I don't see a deal working. Vancouver is looking to clear cap space, so it's doubtful they want to retain 50% on Garland for this year plus 2 more. Vancouver also has enough LD and no real room for POJ.

That's my view as well, if it's a pure salary dump, Jake for Garland makes sense for Vancouver, but why would the Penguins do that? Him for DOC and POJ won't really work for the cap and why would the Penguins do that, they can likely get a better return for those two players.

If I'm trading Jake, I would want a top end power forward with some term or a high draft pick.

Trading Guentzel is the nuclear option. If he goes out, the window is shut and large pieces of crooked wood are nailed in front of it, most likely.

Though I kind of agree with you, I think it depends on the return. 1st round pick and AHL top prospect is one thing, top power forward in a hockey trade is another.

I agree that we could badly use a power forward, so could almost all other teams I would think. Problem is, who are these power forwards these days? I honestly cant think of any that would be available. Gone are the days of Stevens, Tocchet, Tkachuks, Shanahan types unfortunately. If Edmonton is looking to shake it up, maybe they move Evander Kane, but not for Jake obviously.

[Daniel]

I'm not a fan of the player or the contract, but if the Penguins were to make a move, I wonder if something like POJ & DOC for Garland and a pick (with retention) would work. I'd rather have DOC because he has some size and Garland's body type is the same as 50% or more of our forwards...but while overpaid, Garland has put up consistent 3rd line numbers and 10 games into the season, DOC is struggling and not seizing his opportunity with more ice time. POJ seems to keep getting pushed further down the depth chart.

But I don't see a deal working. Vancouver is looking to clear cap space, so it's doubtful they want to retain 50% on Garland for this year plus 2 more. Vancouver also has enough LD and no real room for POJ.

That's my view as well, if it's a pure salary dump, Jake for Garland makes sense for Vancouver, but why would the Penguins do that? Him for DOC and POJ won't really work for the cap and why would the Penguins do that, they can likely get a better return for those two players.

If I'm trading Jake, I would want a top end power forward with some term or a high draft pick.

Trading Guentzel is the nuclear option. If he goes out, the window is shut and large pieces of crooked wood are nailed in front of it, most likely.

Though I kind of agree with you, I think it depends on the return. 1st round pick and AHL top prospect is one thing, top power forward in a hockey trade is another.

I agree that we could badly use a power forward, so could almost all other teams I would think. Problem is, who are these power forwards these days? I honestly cant think of any that would be available. Gone are the days of Stevens, Tocchet, Tkachuks, Shanahan types unfortunately. If Edmonton is looking to shake it up, maybe they move Evander Kane, but not for Jake obviously.

The only two players I can think of are Josh Anderson from Montreal and Lawson Crouse from Arizona. I think Jake being a pending UFA would work for Arizona, so they can get out from Crouse's contract. Not sure why Montreal would do a Jake for Josh trade as a starting point, but who knows.

[Pruezy11881]

I'm not a fan of the player or the contract, but if the Penguins were to make a move, I wonder if something like POJ & DOC for Garland and a pick (with retention) would work. I'd rather have DOC because he has some size and Garland's body type is the same as 50% or more of our forwards...but while overpaid, Garland has put up consistent 3rd line numbers and 10 games into the season, DOC is struggling and not seizing his opportunity with more ice time. POJ seems to keep getting pushed further down the depth chart.

But I don't see a deal working. Vancouver is looking to clear cap space, so it's doubtful they want to retain 50% on Garland for this year plus 2 more. Vancouver also has enough LD and no real room for POJ.

That's my view as well, if it's a pure salary dump, Jake for Garland makes sense for Vancouver, but why would the Penguins do that? Him for DOC and POJ won't really work for the cap and why would the Penguins do that, they can likely get a better return for those two players.

If I'm trading Jake, I would want a top end power forward with some term or a high draft pick.

Trading Guentzel is the nuclear option. If he goes out, the window is shut and large pieces of crooked wood are nailed in front of it, most likely.

Though I kind of agree with you, I think it depends on the return. 1st round pick and AHL top prospect is one thing, top power forward in a hockey trade is another.

I agree that we could badly use a power forward, so could almost all other teams I would think. Problem is, who are these power forwards these days? I honestly cant think of any that would be available. Gone are the days of Stevens, Tocchet, Tkachuks, Shanahan types unfortunately. If Edmonton is looking to shake it up, maybe they move Evander Kane, but not for Jake obviously.

Give me Lawson Crouse.

[Daniel]

I agree that we could badly use a power forward, so could almost all other teams I would think. Problem is, who are these power forwards these days? I honestly cant think of any that would be available. Gone are the days of Stevens, Tocchet, Tkachuks, Shanahan types unfortunately. If Edmonton is looking to shake it up, maybe they move Evander Kane, but not for Jake obviously.

Give me Lawson Crouse.

I doesn't meet the Sullivan criteria of small and over 30.

[FLPensFan]

I agree that we could badly use a power forward, so could almost all other teams I would think. Problem is, who are these power forwards these days? I honestly cant think of any that would be available. Gone are the days of Stevens, Tocchet, Tkachuks, Shanahan types unfortunately. If Edmonton is looking to shake it up, maybe they move Evander Kane, but not for Jake obviously.

The only two players I can think of are Josh Anderson from Montreal and Lawson Crouse from Arizona. I think Jake being a pending UFA would work for Arizona, so they can get out from Crouse's contract. Not sure why Montreal would do a Jake for Josh trade as a starting point, but who knows.

First, to clarify BigMcK ask...I don't think the Penguins are looking to move Guentzel. The problem, however, is this team clearly has this year and MAYBE next season at best to make any type of major playoff push. So why sign an elite but complementary player in Guentzel to a large, long-term deal? Rust, Rakell, Jarry, and (maybe) Letang contracts are all likely to age badly. Why add yet another 30 year old (when next season kicks in) to an expensive, long-term deal with trade protection? Of course, the flip side to that is...if this team keeps playing the way it has and gets itself back into the race, Guentzel is a proven playoff goal scoring stud. Might want to keep that player around.

Moving on to potential targets, Crouse or Anderson.

I don't know that Arizona is "looking to get out" of Crouse's contract. Nothing wrong with it.
Anderson has been on my list for a few years, and it was a year or two ago I heard that several Penguins had asked for him specifically to be acquired.

My target of choice there is Crouse, and I have mentioned in other threads that something around Jake and DOC for Crouse and McBain would interest me...IF the Penguins were going to move on from Jake. Crouse was a highly regarded 11th overall pick, but Florida soured a bit on his development and threw him into the Dave Bolland cap dump. He's really come on the last season or two, starting to hit his 11th overall potential. McBain was one of those college guys that didn't like the team he was drafted by (Minnesota). He's more of a 3rd line type, but he's almost identical in size to Crouse (6'4" 220lbs). Neither of these guys are goon deterents (doesn't exist anyways), but both will drop the gloves. Crouse on Crosby's wing, I would expect Crouse to be going after a player that is taking liberties against Sid.

In terms of production and contracts:
Jake Guentzel, 29yo, 6M AAV, UFA at seasons end (12-team no trade list)
Drew O'Connor, 25yo, 925K AAV, UFA after next season
Lawson Crouse, 26yo, 4.3M AAV, UFA after 26-27 season (zero trade protection)
Jack McBain, 23yo, 1.599M AAV, RFA after next season
Josh Anderson, 29yo, 5.5M AAV, UFA after 26-27 season (8 team, then 5 team no-trade list protection)

The Penguins don't need deterrents or protectors, but if the guy can play and has that skill, great. The Penguins need more Kunitz, Hornqvist, Tanev type players, and McBain & Crouse would fit that bill. These are two big guys that like to use the body. Acciari is our leader this year with 20 hits. Crouse has 20, and McBain 32. McBain was 4th last year in hits, Crouse 35th. I like DOC and Big Z, but for bigger bodies, they don't use their size enough.

While many (myself included at times) have pointed to the lack of youth since the Cup days, the lack of a Hornqvist/Kunitz net front type may be a more overlooked, important missing element.

[KG]

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/hocke ... om-minors/

Blomqvist recalled. Guess that means Jarry is not dressing tonight...

[FLPensFan]

From Elliott Friedman today...

In the salary cap era, and only counting 82 game seasons, there have been 66 teams that were 4 points out of a playoff spot on November 1st. Of those 66 teams, only 9 (14%) have made the playoffs.

The games in October mean much, much more than some people think.

[Cow_Master66]

I've always been in favor of trading anyone on the team, the core included...I hate the thought of trading Guentzel and keeping the likes of Rust, Rakell, and Letang (you can throw pretty much anyone else in that list as well). IMO trading a Guentzel alone is kicking the can down the road. If the team wants to ride with this core (including the complementary players that are well paid), then go for it....Ride it until the wheels fall of and I'll be around to watch the (hopefully)4-5 year rebuild. Or go bold, trade the top players and shoot to rebuild in 2 seasons. I'm fine either way, but just trading 1 guy won't move the needle enough to me.

[Antonio]

From Elliott Friedman today...

In the salary cap era, and only counting 82 game seasons, there have been 66 teams that were 4 points out of a playoff spot on November 1st. Of those 66 teams, only 9 (14%) have made the playoffs.

The games in October mean much, much more than some people think.

Because every single game has exactly the same worth. Every time I've heard the idiotic nonsense in NHL circles about games being more or less important based on the month, it gives me an aneurysm. There is zero foundation to argue game 1 has even the smallest difference in value than game 82.

I mean, honestly anyone being realistic based on the numbers and history already knows this team isn't making the playoffs unless they pull off a severe change based on their current performance. It isn't doom or naysaying, it's just history and math. Teams in this position at this stage don't make the playoffs like you said. Certainly not impossible, but extremely unlikely. Hopefully they turn it around fast and dramatically.

[Daniel]

From Elliott Friedman today...

In the salary cap era, and only counting 82 game seasons, there have been 66 teams that were 4 points out of a playoff spot on November 1st. Of those 66 teams, only 9 (14%) have made the playoffs.

The games in October mean much, much more than some people think.

Because every single game has exactly the same worth. Every time I've heard the idiotic nonsense in NHL circles about games being more or less important based on the month, it gives me an aneurysm. There is zero foundation to argue game 1 has even the smallest difference in value than game 82.

I mean, honestly anyone being realistic based on the numbers and history already knows this team isn't making the playoffs unless they pull off a severe change based on their current performance. It isn't doom or naysaying, it's just history and math. Teams in this position at this stage don't make the playoffs like you said. Certainly not impossible, but extremely unlikely. Hopefully they turn it around fast and dramatically.

The only way I can see an argument like that is new coach/system with enough new players to take a few weeks to gel, but that would mean when they gelled they'll go on a hot streak. For a team like the Penguins, even with the turnover, the core is the same and they should have enough leadership to get through that without much difficulty.

[DelPen]

So Welcome Back Carter tonight?

[Unbeliever]

From Elliott Friedman today...

In the salary cap era, and only counting 82 game seasons, there have been 66 teams that were 4 points out of a playoff spot on November 1st. Of those 66 teams, only 9 (14%) have made the playoffs.

The games in October mean much, much more than some people think.

Because every single game has exactly the same worth. Every time I've heard the idiotic nonsense in NHL circles about games being more or less important based on the month, it gives me an aneurysm. There is zero foundation to argue game 1 has even the smallest difference in value than game 82.

I mean, honestly anyone being realistic based on the numbers and history already knows this team isn't making the playoffs unless they pull off a severe change based on their current performance. It isn't doom or naysaying, it's just history and math. Teams in this position at this stage don't make the playoffs like you said. Certainly not impossible, but extremely unlikely. Hopefully they turn it around fast and dramatically.

This.. I can't stand that argument. If anything last season should put a firm end to that kind of nonsense. Every game is worth the same number of points no matter when it is played and you can pick any single loss in October and November and if they had taken that one they would have made the playoffs. And the Bruins would have won the Stanley Cup but that's besides the point.

[Sams_Dog]

I agree that we could badly use a power forward, so could almost all other teams I would think. Problem is, who are these power forwards these days? I honestly cant think of any that would be available. Gone are the days of Stevens, Tocchet, Tkachuks, Shanahan types unfortunately. If Edmonton is looking to shake it up, maybe they move Evander Kane, but not for Jake obviously.

The only two players I can think of are Josh Anderson from Montreal and Lawson Crouse from Arizona. I think Jake being a pending UFA would work for Arizona, so they can get out from Crouse's contract. Not sure why Montreal would do a Jake for Josh trade as a starting point, but who knows.

First, to clarify BigMcK ask...I don't think the Penguins are looking to move Guentzel. The problem, however, is this team clearly has this year and MAYBE next season at best to make any type of major playoff push. So why sign an elite but complementary player in Guentzel to a large, long-term deal? Rust, Rakell, Jarry, and (maybe) Letang contracts are all likely to age badly. Why add yet another 30 year old (when next season kicks in) to an expensive, long-term deal with trade protection? Of course, the flip side to that is...if this team keeps playing the way it has and gets itself back into the race, Guentzel is a proven playoff goal scoring stud. Might want to keep that player around.

Moving on to potential targets, Crouse or Anderson.

I don't know that Arizona is "looking to get out" of Crouse's contract. Nothing wrong with it.
Anderson has been on my list for a few years, and it was a year or two ago I heard that several Penguins had asked for him specifically to be acquired.

My target of choice there is Crouse, and I have mentioned in other threads that something around Jake and DOC for Crouse and McBain would interest me...IF the Penguins were going to move on from Jake. Crouse was a highly regarded 11th overall pick, but Florida soured a bit on his development and threw him into the Dave Bolland cap dump. He's really come on the last season or two, starting to hit his 11th overall potential. McBain was one of those college guys that didn't like the team he was drafted by (Minnesota). He's more of a 3rd line type, but he's almost identical in size to Crouse (6'4" 220lbs). Neither of these guys are goon deterents (doesn't exist anyways), but both will drop the gloves. Crouse on Crosby's wing, I would expect Crouse to be going after a player that is taking liberties against Sid.

In terms of production and contracts:
Jake Guentzel, 29yo, 6M AAV, UFA at seasons end (12-team no trade list)
Drew O'Connor, 25yo, 925K AAV, UFA after next season
Lawson Crouse, 26yo, 4.3M AAV, UFA after 26-27 season (zero trade protection)
Jack McBain, 23yo, 1.599M AAV, RFA after next season
Josh Anderson, 29yo, 5.5M AAV, UFA after 26-27 season (8 team, then 5 team no-trade list protection)

The Penguins don't need deterrents or protectors, but if the guy can play and has that skill, great. The Penguins need more Kunitz, Hornqvist, Tanev type players, and McBain & Crouse would fit that bill. These are two big guys that like to use the body. Acciari is our leader this year with 20 hits. Crouse has 20, and McBain 32. McBain was 4th last year in hits, Crouse 35th. I like DOC and Big Z, but for bigger bodies, they don't use their size enough.

While many (myself included at times) have pointed to the lack of youth since the Cup days, the lack of a Hornqvist/Kunitz net front type may be a more overlooked, important missing element.

I agree. This is something that the team is really lacking. They have a lot of perimeter players in the top 9 and not enough guys willing to create screens, deflections, trouble in front of the net.

[E-Ramone]

Just saw that the Sharks won their first game of the season. They beat the Flyers. Bahahahahaha!

I'd laugh but we're still tied for worst in the Eastern conference, so I'll refrain from making fun of others.

It’s the Flyers though! Perfectly acceptable to laugh at their expense.

[IntangibleBeer]

Because every single game has exactly the same worth. Every time I've heard the idiotic nonsense in NHL circles about games being more or less important based on the month, it gives me an aneurysm. There is zero foundation to argue game 1 has even the smallest difference in value than game 82.

I never understood this mentality either. 2 points = 2 points = 2 points.

Obviously, it's better if the team gets into a winning mode early. The mentality about when points count more is as bad as believing that performance can be switched on / off. In fact, I would argue these are different sides of the same coin.

You play like you practice. It's ALL important and details matter.

[Puck-Lurker]

Because every single game has exactly the same worth. Every time I've heard the idiotic nonsense in NHL circles about games being more or less important based on the month, it gives me an aneurysm. There is zero foundation to argue game 1 has even the smallest difference in value than game 82.

I never understood this mentality either. 2 points = 2 points = 2 points.

Obviously, it's better if the team gets into a winning mode early. The mentality about when points count more is as bad as believing that performance can be switched on / off. In fact, I would argue these are different sides of the same coin.

You play like you practice. It's ALL important and details matter.

Yes... And no.

There is one way to make a case for late season points being of greater value. It just doesn't get explained well enough and there is some equivocation on the words value and worth.

Obviously 2 points in October is the same as two points in march for the standings. It's not like the former is 1.85 and the latter 2.3 or something.

Come march, a whole bunch of games will have been played already. They're gone and the points of those are distributed already. Can't get at them. As time goes on, there will be fewer matches left to catch up. Statistically their value increases, because there are fewer chances left to get two points.

But that's relative value compared to the number of opportunities left. Not absolute value.

What annoys me is the thought that people think that just because it's an October game, it doesn't matter as much. It does.

[Three Stars]

https://dkpittsburghsports.com/2023/11/ ... lin-nfl-dk

Karlsson is more comfortable now.

Guentzel will be signed.

Smith doesn’t see the big deal about adapting to Geno.

Here’s the real spicy meatball:

• P.O Joseph will continue to exist on the fringe of the defensive top until he settles himself positionally. And that won't happen for as long as he thinks he'll be effective offensively at the NHL level. The coaches would much prefer he models his game after that of Marcus Pettersson.

[Pens4Life]

Trading Guentzel would be a mistake.. btw. Dont you guys think he would sign short term deal to be alligned with the core? Like 3 year deal,not 5-6 years deal.. 8M per/3 yrs deal

If we are doing good,we can always trade for Crouse at trade deadline.. we have some assets

[Puck-Lurker]

Here’s the real spicy meatball:

• P.O Joseph will continue to exist on the fringe of the defensive top until he settles himself positionally. And that won't happen for as long as he thinks he'll be effective offensively at the NHL level. The coaches would much prefer he models his game after that of Marcus Pettersson.

I can't help but agree with the coaches in that regard.

While I'm sure he can add a bit of offense. As an offensive defenseman I think he plateaus around the 4D level on a struggling team. On a playoff candidate, 5D. It's worth noting we have an elite offensive D on our top two pairs already - POJ will not displace either of them. Your bottom pair just needs to get pucks out and play responsibly, which puts POJ (and Ty Smith by extension) in a weird spot.

If he can play as a solid defensive defenseman, now there are scenarios where he can break into the top 4. Otherwise, you're talking bottom pair or scratch. At least on this team

[FLPensFan]

Dejan told Rickard Rakell if he doesn't score a goal tonight, Dejan is walking home from the game.

He apparently lives 4 blocks from the arena and Rakell knows this. Rest of the 30 second conversation was just that RR is playing well and getting chances, just not going in.

[Dynasty1970]

Riding a 4 game win streak.....Sully's stock may never be higher again. I think now would be a good time to offer Sully to Edmonton for either Leon Draisaitl or Connor McDavid. LOL

[Puck-Lurker]

We've lost 8 games -- all with 4 goals against or more.
We've won 9 games -- with 5 of them being shutouts.

Jarry with 13 starts, 6-7-0; 3 shutouts (one shared with Hellberg)
Ned 3 starts, 2-1-0; 1 shutout
Hellberg 1 start 1-0-0 (one shutout shared with Jarry)

With the second best goal differential in the Metro.

Crazy.