Jerry Sandusky and Related Trials

[penny lane]

for - profit schools only receive title 9 funding... state schools receives monies from govt.

[mac5155]

As a PSU alum, the fact that a student run blog posted this today is what I HATE about Penn State for a million different reasons:

http://onwardstate.com/2012/07/16/local ... own-remix/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That may be the worst rap remix ive ever heard.

[shmenguin]

I've thought about this quite a bit. If the football program gets shut down, what purpose does that serve? Who is it benefiting? We know it would hurt people not involved in the cover-up, but does it punish anyone who was involved? Seems like a knee-jerk response.

it's not uncommon that the ncaa continues to punish athletic programs, even though the actual offending parties have already been terminated. when you strip scholarships or whatever other sanctions are imposed when players get illegally paid, you're doing the same thing - punishing the fans, the players, etc. even though they weren't involved.

in that regard, it's not uniquely unfair that PSU gets that sort of punishment.

[steve784]

As a PSU alum, the fact that a student run blog posted this today is what I HATE about Penn State for a million different reasons:

http://onwardstate.com/2012/07/16/local ... own-remix/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That may be the worst rap remix ive ever heard.

Yes. It's absolutely atrocious. What I cannot believe, is with that moron dancing around and rapping about football and JoePa.......no one that edits for this blog had the thought of 'hmmmmmmm......this probably shouldn't be posted at this time.' They just haddd to get their boyz' twitter name out there though I guess.

[shmenguin]

The death penalty on the football program wouldn't deter this from happening again.

maybe, maybe not. if the ncaa's punishment is limited only to terminating the individual offenders, it could open up the door for controlled scapegoating in the future. the board throws a few guys under the bus, and the school gets to keep making its money. that is NOT what happened here, but it's a plausible scenario.

[viva la ben]

Punishments aren't usually a benefit to anyone. Like many have said Penn State's recruit class is highly regarded, donations are at an all time high. Looks like business as usual from an outsider.
The BOT even says they arent taking down the Paterno statue "for now" as not to offend current alumni.

[count2infinity]

I keep thinking back to the victims. Do you really think they'd want the football program to be shut down? I'd like to hear what their thoughts are, but it'd be wildly inappropriate for any sort of reporter to ask such a question.

[viva la ben]

I say just leave the victims alone.

[shmenguin]

I keep thinking back to the victims. Do you really think they'd want the football program to be shut down?

some would. most wouldn't. i don't think that's particularly relevant, though.

[MWB]

I've thought about this quite a bit. If the football program gets shut down, what purpose does that serve? Who is it benefiting? We know it would hurt people not involved in the cover-up, but does it punish anyone who was involved? Seems like a knee-jerk response.

it's not uncommon that the ncaa continues to punish athletic programs, even though the actual offending parties have already been terminated. when you strip scholarships or whatever other sanctions are imposed when players get illegally paid, you're doing the same thing - punishing the fans, the players, etc. even though they weren't involved.

in that regard, it's not uniquely unfair that PSU gets that sort of punishment.

That makes more sense to me thought because you've got a penalty for a team that has cheated to gain a competitive advantage. The coach/player/AD represent the team and as that representative cheated to help the team, so the team is punished. Not always fair, but understandable. In this case there's not connection between the offenses and the team itself.

[llipgh2]

I keep thinking back to the victims. Do you really think they'd want the football program to be shut down? I'd like to hear what their thoughts are, but it'd be wildly inappropriate for any sort of reporter to ask such a question.

Just because it's inappropriate doesn't mean it won't be asked.

[DontToewsMeBro]

I've thought about this quite a bit. If the football program gets shut down, what purpose does that serve? Who is it benefiting? We know it would hurt people not involved in the cover-up, but does it punish anyone who was involved? Seems like a knee-jerk response.

it's not uncommon that the ncaa continues to punish athletic programs, even though the actual offending parties have already been terminated. when you strip scholarships or whatever other sanctions are imposed when players get illegally paid, you're doing the same thing - punishing the fans, the players, etc. even though they weren't involved.

in that regard, it's not uniquely unfair that PSU gets that sort of punishment.

That makes more sense to me thought because you've got a penalty for a team that has cheated to gain a competitive advantage. The coach/player/AD represent the team and as that representative cheated to help the team, so the team is punished. Not always fair, but understandable. In this case there's not connection between the offenses and the team itself.

In the case of recruiting violations, in theory, punishment should deter other parties from repeating the violations. This almost reminds me of the bank bailout in some strange way.

[MWB]

I also think this is a very isolated incident. I don't think that there is molestation going on in several other universities and colleges. I think it just happened to occur at PSU, and because of those in charge, it continued to happen. I'd be very surprised if it's something that is wide-spread at colleges though. So I don't think punishing the football team would be a deterrent.

[viva la ben]

I do look at it as a football problem because the coverup was to protect the football program.

[KennyTheKangaroo]

I do look at it as a football problem because the coverup was to protect the football program.

yes, the odds of the next football/hoops scandal involving a child molester is not very high. the odds of the next hoops/football scandal involving important people (i.e. coaches) ignoring something inappropriate is very high.

remember, tressel didnt get the ax because the players were selling their stuff, he got the axe because he found out about it and more or less ignored it.

[count2infinity]

I keep thinking back to the victims. Do you really think they'd want the football program to be shut down?

some would. most wouldn't. i don't think that's particularly relevant, though.

why not? everyone is out for justice for these kids, what would they think is just?

[MWB]

I keep thinking back to the victims. Do you really think they'd want the football program to be shut down?

some would. most wouldn't. i don't think that's particularly relevant, though.

why not? everyone is out for justice for these kids, what would they think is just?

I wouldn't be surprised if half of them wanted everything shut down. If that were the case, would you think it should happen?

[count2infinity]

I'd be more inclined to agree if they thought that.

[Rylan]

No. You never allow victims to determine punishment because it is generally out of revenge and not justice.

This whole thing irks me because its the actions of a few that brand all. Sort of like negative American perceptions based on the actions of our celebrities and movies. Penn St as an institution should not be punished because it is more than those 5 men. It is a community that lives because football brings in people. Giving the death penalty to the football team is akin to being nuked by Russia because of Kim Kardashian and Kanye West. It is an over powered response.

Blame football, blame Penn St and you are missing the overall problem. You are calling the innocent guilty by including them with the failures who allowed for the child molesting to go unpunished for years. By shutting down the football team, who are you punishing?

Will you be punishing Sandusky? Nope.

Will you be punishing Spainer? Nah.

Paterno? Negative.

Schulz? Again no.

Curley? Nuh uh.

Penn State as a whole? Including players, students, faculty, alumni, and the surrounding area of businesses and fans. That's who you punish. Football may have been the catalyst that drove the actions of 4 of those men to cover-up Sandusky's mess, but it did not directly do it itself.

[DontToewsMeBro]

I think a lot of posters are vastly exaggerating the "cult mentality" bred by PSU football. Yes, they sell out 100,000 seats at a stadium in the middle of nowhere, but it doesn't mean the fans are mindless followers.

[joopen]

No. You never allow victims to determine punishment because it is generally out of revenge and not justice.

This whole thing irks me because its the actions of a few that brand all. Sort of like negative American perceptions based on the actions of our celebrities and movies. Penn St as an institution should not be punished because it is more than those 5 men. It is a community that lives because football brings in people. Giving the death penalty to the football team is akin to being nuked by Russia because of Kim Kardashian and Kanye West. It is an over powered response.

Blame football, blame Penn St and you are missing the overall problem. You are calling the innocent guilty by including them with the failures who allowed for the child molesting to go unpunished for years. By shutting down the football team, who are you punishing?

Will you be punishing Sandusky? Nope.

Will you be punishing Spainer? Nah.

Paterno? Negative.

Schulz? Again no.

Curley? Nuh uh.

Penn State as a whole? Including players, students, faculty, alumni, and the surrounding area of businesses and fans. That's who you punish. Football may have been the catalyst that drove the actions of 4 of those men to cover-up Sandusky's mess, but it did not directly do it itself.

As I have said before, the entire institution of Penn State was rewarded by the actions of these men. The financial benefits received by the institution due to the football program are ENORMOUS. The entire institution that is Penn State is responsible for the people it chooses to have represent it. It's not the same as being nuked because of Kim Kardashian because she isnt the representative of the country. If we ge nuked because of President Obama then that is comparable. He is who we the people chose to have represent us. We suffer those consequences. Penn State chose to have those men represent it. Penn State is responsible for the consequences of their actions. They chose to leave those people in power because the money kept flowing in. If this was not covered up then it is fair to assume there would be ramifications that occurred when it was brought to light. Perhaps those accountable are exposed then and the institution is off the hook because they did the right thing. In this case the institution (these men selected to represent them) did not do the right thing and now there are consequences. They don't stop at the men who did it. The institution that allowed them to act like this should be punished. Their glorified football program caused this debacle. Their glorified football program should bear the brunt of the punishment.

[ulf]

No. You never allow victims to determine punishment because it is generally out of revenge and not justice.

This whole thing irks me because its the actions of a few that brand all. Sort of like negative American perceptions based on the actions of our celebrities and movies. Penn St as an institution should not be punished because it is more than those 5 men. It is a community that lives because football brings in people. Giving the death penalty to the football team is akin to being nuked by Russia because of Kim Kardashian and Kanye West. It is an over powered response.

Blame football, blame Penn St and you are missing the overall problem. You are calling the innocent guilty by including them with the failures who allowed for the child molesting to go unpunished for years. By shutting down the football team, who are you punishing?

Will you be punishing Sandusky? Nope.

Will you be punishing Spainer? Nah.

Paterno? Negative.

Schulz? Again no.

Curley? Nuh uh.

Penn State as a whole? Including players, students, faculty, alumni, and the surrounding area of businesses and fans. That's who you punish. Football may have been the catalyst that drove the actions of 4 of those men to cover-up Sandusky's mess, but it did not directly do it itself.

This is a dumb argument. How many times do punishments by the NCAA to a program only affect those that committed the "crime?" USC's bowl ban, did the incoming freshman class accept gifts? Is Pete Carroll still there?

[Rylan]

No. You never allow victims to determine punishment because it is generally out of revenge and not justice.

This whole thing irks me because its the actions of a few that brand all. Sort of like negative American perceptions based on the actions of our celebrities and movies. Penn St as an institution should not be punished because it is more than those 5 men. It is a community that lives because football brings in people. Giving the death penalty to the football team is akin to being nuked by Russia because of Kim Kardashian and Kanye West. It is an over powered response.

Blame football, blame Penn St and you are missing the overall problem. You are calling the innocent guilty by including them with the failures who allowed for the child molesting to go unpunished for years. By shutting down the football team, who are you punishing?

Will you be punishing Sandusky? Nope.

Will you be punishing Spainer? Nah.

Paterno? Negative.

Schulz? Again no.

Curley? Nuh uh.

Penn State as a whole? Including players, students, faculty, alumni, and the surrounding area of businesses and fans. That's who you punish. Football may have been the catalyst that drove the actions of 4 of those men to cover-up Sandusky's mess, but it did not directly do it itself.

As I have said before, the entire institution of Penn State was rewarded by the actions of these men. The financial benefits received by the institution due to the football program are ENORMOUS. The entire institution that is Penn State is responsible for the people it chooses to have represent it. It's not the same as being nuked because of Kim Kardashian because she isnt the representative of the country. If we ge nuked because of President Obama then that is comparable. He is who we the people chose to have represent us. We suffer those consequences. Penn State chose to have those men represent it. Penn State is responsible for the consequences of their actions. They chose to leave those people in power because the money kept flowing in. If this was not covered up then it is fair to assume there would be ramifications that occurred when it was brought to light. Perhaps those accountable are exposed then and the institution is off the hook because they did the right thing. In this case the institution (these men selected to represent them) did not do the right thing and now there are consequences. They don't stop at the men who did it. The institution that allowed them to act like this should be punished. Their glorified football program caused this debacle. Their glorified football program should bear the brunt of the punishment.

Penn St chose nothing. They didn't elect the AD, the President of the School, the Head Coach, or VP Schulz.

Also, why should everyone be forced to pay because of blowback by 5 men? The research program from Penn St should be punished because of the football team. The students who attend the school should be punished. The surrounding businesses should be punished. All because 5 men, of whom are neither elected nor chosen by the general Penn St populace, failed at being decent human beings and stopping this scandal before it started?

But even still, lets use your analogy of the President making Russia mad and causing them to nuke America because of the actions of a few is warranted? You would say that's fair as everything around gets razed? Doubt it.

As for the "glorified" football program bearing the brunt of this punishment is a sham. They will not be bearing the brunt, because the revenue generated helps fund many projects as well as lesser athletic programs (like the majority of female sports and men's sports outside of basketball). Is it fair to punish other student athletes not involved? The death penalty is not going to just punish football. It will punish the innocent for crimes they did not commit.

[penny lane]

I'm on page 73 of the Freeh Report, but by now I see the leadership of the school lost control, or better never really had much. Based on the non-discipline issues from the student life person, the avoidance of the Clery(crimes by PSU students) Act compliance ... trustees not asking questions after knowing about grand jury for 4 , high leadership folks. PSU legal folks... ? where were they?

PSU football won't be an escape of the situation when they go on the road.
I don't know that football is where you should begin the Penn State college rebuilding.

[shafnutz05]

Pretty much the only argument I've seen for shuttering the program is for punitive reasons. The four people responsible all face criminal prosecution. I really don't see what upside closing it down has.

And if you think this is going to act as a deterrent...a deterrent for what? Not allowing child molesters free rein on campus? It's not going to be a deterrent against corruption at other universities.

I understand the desire to punish the "institution", but the arguments for it haven't been strong (or varied)