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Game 21 vs Preds - Thoughts from the Morning After

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Pitts
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Re: Game 21 vs Preds - Thoughts from the Morning After

Post by Pitts »

Daniel wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:30 pm
Pitts wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:02 pm I'm tired of blaming the coaches for the putrid powerplay. The players own that. You have Sid, Geno, Guentzel, Karlsson - then add it whoever you want (Rust, Letang, Smith, etc.) - how do they not score????

They have to know what needs done. I see far too many pass-happy mofo's out there. Always looking for that one last pass, or to "be nice" and let the next guy have it. Please, can one or two of you be selfish and take the shot when it is there?? I have a hard time thinking that all those veteran players can't possibly figure that out.
Maybe because the coach creates the scheme and the personnel and both have been predicable for a decade? Maybe because the coach changes neither the scheme or the personnel?
What personnel do you suggest? When he split Crosby/Malkin into two last week, both units looked like crap. So, what wonderful change in the personnel is there to make?
FLPensFan
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Re: Game 21 vs Preds - Thoughts from the Morning After

Post by FLPensFan »

Pitts wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:20 pm
Daniel wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:30 pm
Pitts wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:02 pm I'm tired of blaming the coaches for the putrid powerplay. The players own that. You have Sid, Geno, Guentzel, Karlsson - then add it whoever you want (Rust, Letang, Smith, etc.) - how do they not score????

They have to know what needs done. I see far too many pass-happy mofo's out there. Always looking for that one last pass, or to "be nice" and let the next guy have it. Please, can one or two of you be selfish and take the shot when it is there?? I have a hard time thinking that all those veteran players can't possibly figure that out.
Maybe because the coach creates the scheme and the personnel and both have been predicable for a decade? Maybe because the coach changes neither the scheme or the personnel?
What personnel do you suggest? When he split Crosby/Malkin into two last week, both units looked like crap. So, what wonderful change in the personnel is there to make?
I liken the Penguins PP to an NFL team that goes into a 5-WR set with 5 All-Pro level WRs. It's a bit different in that I don't think the Penguins are all saying "give me the damn puck" but there seems to be a huge tendency to look for the perfect play and defer to the next guy.

I still think splitting Crosby and Malkin up is likely the best solution longer term. Forget names for a minute...the Penguins need a point trigger man, a good puck distributor, a good net front guy, and at least one good shooter on each unit.

The problem I see is that, Crosby and Malkin play 2 very different roles. Crosby could very easily be that puck distributor guy on PP1, but that's not necessarily a great role for Malkin on PP2.

Without going too deep into circles of things, this is what NHL coaches are paid to figure out...and I don't think Sullivan and his coaches have done a good job in this realm.
Daniel
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Re: Game 21 vs Preds - Thoughts from the Morning After

Post by Daniel »

Pitts wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:20 pm
Daniel wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:30 pm
Pitts wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:02 pm I'm tired of blaming the coaches for the putrid powerplay. The players own that. You have Sid, Geno, Guentzel, Karlsson - then add it whoever you want (Rust, Letang, Smith, etc.) - how do they not score????

They have to know what needs done. I see far too many pass-happy mofo's out there. Always looking for that one last pass, or to "be nice" and let the next guy have it. Please, can one or two of you be selfish and take the shot when it is there?? I have a hard time thinking that all those veteran players can't possibly figure that out.
Maybe because the coach creates the scheme and the personnel and both have been predicable for a decade? Maybe because the coach changes neither the scheme or the personnel?
What personnel do you suggest? When he split Crosby/Malkin into two last week, both units looked like crap. So, what wonderful change in the personnel is there to make?
I’m not a coach so no idea. I just know that either the scheme or the personnel isn’t working. Do you disagree that it’s either scheme or players?

If it’s the scheme, do you honestly think several hall of fame caliber players have been incapable of following a PP scheme for about 5 years? If they are then again, leads back to coaching.

If the players aren’t the problem, then it’s the scheme. If the scheme isn’t the problem, it’s the players. Either way the coach is responsible.
FLPensFan
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Re: Game 21 vs Preds - Thoughts from the Morning After

Post by FLPensFan »

Late to the party on this, but I was out and didn't watch the game last night. Just saw the OT winner replay. Maybe a minority stance here, but, I think the refs got the call right on that one.

ROR is already there with position established. He's trying to stay onside, but I see no attempt by ROR to alter his skating path to get in Crosby's way. Crosby is skating backwards and doesn't see him until the last second. While the play is unfortunate, I see it as incidental contact. Neither player went out of their way to interfere with the other. Both players were just unaware of the trajectory of the other, and I've got to give the benefit of position to ROR in any case.

Crappy way to end the game, but seemed like the right no call to me.
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Re: Game 21 vs Preds - Thoughts from the Morning After

Post by Maestro »

Antonio wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:51 pm
Maestro wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:29 pm Coach has to go for any increased level of success but we all know he's here for at least another 3 seasons...
I know I have thought this before for the last several years including when I was almost positive last season was his last, but...at the risk of setting myself up for heartbreak again, I think this year if/when they miss the playoffs again, he is gone (unless it is sooner which I doubt since it has already long been time and anywhere else he would have been gone at this stage of the season).
Maybe but his new 3 year contract doesn't begin until next season. I think he may have a longer tenure in the "burgh than Tomlin.
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Re: Game 21 vs Preds - Thoughts from the Morning After

Post by Southern Fan »

Eller on second unit power play. Harkins and Carter remain with Zohorna the odd man out. Not sure how that helps clean up the perimeter, pass, pass combo of Karlsson and Malkin approach of the first unit.
Pitts
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Re: Game 21 vs Preds - Thoughts from the Morning After

Post by Pitts »

Daniel wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:06 pm
Pitts wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:20 pm
Daniel wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:30 pm
Pitts wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:02 pm I'm tired of blaming the coaches for the putrid powerplay. The players own that. You have Sid, Geno, Guentzel, Karlsson - then add it whoever you want (Rust, Letang, Smith, etc.) - how do they not score????

They have to know what needs done. I see far too many pass-happy mofo's out there. Always looking for that one last pass, or to "be nice" and let the next guy have it. Please, can one or two of you be selfish and take the shot when it is there?? I have a hard time thinking that all those veteran players can't possibly figure that out.
Maybe because the coach creates the scheme and the personnel and both have been predicable for a decade? Maybe because the coach changes neither the scheme or the personnel?
What personnel do you suggest? When he split Crosby/Malkin into two last week, both units looked like crap. So, what wonderful change in the personnel is there to make?
I’m not a coach so no idea. I just know that either the scheme or the personnel isn’t working. Do you disagree that it’s either scheme or players?

If it’s the scheme, do you honestly think several hall of fame caliber players have been incapable of following a PP scheme for about 5 years? If they are then again, leads back to coaching.

If the players aren’t the problem, then it’s the scheme. If the scheme isn’t the problem, it’s the players. Either way the coach is responsible.
I already stated I think it is the players. As they are too perimeter, too pass-happy and not selfish enough to take the open shot. They are long-tenured veterans. They are not that stupid to not see that. They can't be. On the other hand, maybe that IS the problem. They are no longer young and hungry enough to want that shot and be that guy? I feel like if all of us can sit here and see what's wrong, why can't those boneheads?

I feel the bigger problem with this team is they need a much larger shake-up - trade a name or two (Guentzel/Rust/Letang). I think that's about the only thing left (outside firing coaches) that might jump-start this team and the powerplay. And, I don't think that is going to happen.
Daniel
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Re: Game 21 vs Preds - Thoughts from the Morning After

Post by Daniel »

Pitts wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:19 am
Daniel wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:06 pm
Pitts wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:20 pm
Daniel wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:30 pm
Pitts wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:02 pm I'm tired of blaming the coaches for the putrid powerplay. The players own that. You have Sid, Geno, Guentzel, Karlsson - then add it whoever you want (Rust, Letang, Smith, etc.) - how do they not score????

They have to know what needs done. I see far too many pass-happy mofo's out there. Always looking for that one last pass, or to "be nice" and let the next guy have it. Please, can one or two of you be selfish and take the shot when it is there?? I have a hard time thinking that all those veteran players can't possibly figure that out.
Maybe because the coach creates the scheme and the personnel and both have been predicable for a decade? Maybe because the coach changes neither the scheme or the personnel?
What personnel do you suggest? When he split Crosby/Malkin into two last week, both units looked like crap. So, what wonderful change in the personnel is there to make?
I’m not a coach so no idea. I just know that either the scheme or the personnel isn’t working. Do you disagree that it’s either scheme or players?

If it’s the scheme, do you honestly think several hall of fame caliber players have been incapable of following a PP scheme for about 5 years? If they are then again, leads back to coaching.

If the players aren’t the problem, then it’s the scheme. If the scheme isn’t the problem, it’s the players. Either way the coach is responsible.
I already stated I think it is the players. As they are too perimeter, too pass-happy and not selfish enough to take the open shot. They are long-tenured veterans. They are not that stupid to not see that. They can't be. On the other hand, maybe that IS the problem. They are no longer young and hungry enough to want that shot and be that guy? I feel like if all of us can sit here and see what's wrong, why can't those boneheads?

I feel the bigger problem with this team is they need a much larger shake-up - trade a name or two (Guentzel/Rust/Letang). I think that's about the only thing left (outside firing coaches) that might jump-start this team and the powerplay. And, I don't think that is going to happen.
It’s still the coaches responsibility to make sure the PP works right. If it’s the players, then the players need to be changed and if the coaches won’t change the players, it’s still the coaches fault. A few games of Zohorna, DOC, Rakell, Smith, Karlsson for PP1 and Acciari, Carter, Eller, Karlsson, Pettersson for PP2 should get the point across. Those 2 PP units can’t be any worse.
Antonio
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Re: Game 21 vs Preds - Thoughts from the Morning After

Post by Antonio »

Well, we changed 60% of the roster last year so...

You are not moving any of the "Big 3" now that you resigned Malkin and Letang for another 50 years, and many fans clutched their pearls and fainted at the prospect of letting Malkin and Letang go in order to reshape the team and its identity so that was not the answer I guess...not that it matters anymore as that chance is gone.

Can't change any more players, can't get a new GM....seems like there is only 1 constant unchanging factor on this team...well beside playoff related failures and carbon copy performances night after night after year after year.
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Re: Game 21 vs Preds - Thoughts from the Morning After

Post by lemieuxReturns »

Antonio wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:57 am Well, we changed 60% of the roster last year so...

You are not moving any of the "Big 3" now that you resigned Malkin and Letang for another 50 years, and many fans clutched their pearls and fainted at the prospect of letting Malkin and Letang go in order to reshape the team and its identity so that was not the answer I guess...not that it matters anymore as that chance is gone.

Can't change any more players, can't get a new GM....seems like there is only 1 constant unchanging factor on this team...well beside playoff related failures and carbon copy performances night after night after year after year.

You know when someone is wrong and they just keep trying.... that is you!

Still not sure how you can be angry with the Penguins re-signing Malkin 2 summers ago for 4 years at 6.1 million. He has already completed 1.5 years of that deal and has scored 102 points in 103 games.

Kris Letang is the 43rd highest paid defensemen in the league. Jeff Petry makes more than Letang. Letang makes the same amount of money as guys like Tyler Myers.

What is it exactly you are upset with? What would you have rather spent that money on? What PPG player is coming in here for less than 6M a year?
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Re: Game 21 vs Preds - Thoughts from the Morning After

Post by Wyopen »

Let’s be honest here, this team is mediocre at best. Win one lose one. Who’d thought they’d be in seventh place in the Metro division after 1/4 of the season. The top four are going no where, they’ll sign Guentzel to a “50” year contract at 8M/yr even if they don’t make the playoffs. Changing coaches and/or players is not going to do much. Sullivan is here until 2027. Fans are going to have to live and die with the current structure. Even EK65 has tapered off. I’m sorry to be so pessimistic, but at least pessimists are not disappointed.
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Re: Game 21 vs Preds - Thoughts from the Morning After

Post by Dynasty1970 »

Wyopen wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 3:22 pm Let’s be honest here, this team is mediocre at best. Win one lose one. Who’d thought they’d be in seventh place in the Metro division after 1/4 of the season. The top four are going no where, they’ll sign Guentzel to a “50” year contract at 8M/yr even if they don’t make the playoffs. Changing coaches and/or players is not going to do much. Sullivan is here until 2027. Fans are going to have to live and die with the current structure. Even EK65 has tapered off. I’m sorry to be so pessimistic, but at least pessimists are not disappointed.
I don't feel you are being pessimistic...I think you are living in reality and can admit the truth. Of course we all wish things were different but perhaps ownership just wants a return on their investment. As long as fans continue to show up and they are making money why rock the boat......When the fans stop showing up they may look at tossing Sully.
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Re: Game 21 vs Preds - Thoughts from the Morning After

Post by Sams_Dog »

FLPensFan wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:01 pm
Pitts wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:20 pm
Daniel wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:30 pm
Pitts wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:02 pm I'm tired of blaming the coaches for the putrid powerplay. The players own that. You have Sid, Geno, Guentzel, Karlsson - then add it whoever you want (Rust, Letang, Smith, etc.) - how do they not score????

They have to know what needs done. I see far too many pass-happy mofo's out there. Always looking for that one last pass, or to "be nice" and let the next guy have it. Please, can one or two of you be selfish and take the shot when it is there?? I have a hard time thinking that all those veteran players can't possibly figure that out.
Maybe because the coach creates the scheme and the personnel and both have been predicable for a decade? Maybe because the coach changes neither the scheme or the personnel?
What personnel do you suggest? When he split Crosby/Malkin into two last week, both units looked like crap. So, what wonderful change in the personnel is there to make?
I liken the Penguins PP to an NFL team that goes into a 5-WR set with 5 All-Pro level WRs. It's a bit different in that I don't think the Penguins are all saying "give me the damn puck" but there seems to be a huge tendency to look for the perfect play and defer to the next guy.

I still think splitting Crosby and Malkin up is likely the best solution longer term. Forget names for a minute...the Penguins need a point trigger man, a good puck distributor, a good net front guy, and at least one good shooter on each unit.

The problem I see is that, Crosby and Malkin play 2 very different roles. Crosby could very easily be that puck distributor guy on PP1, but that's not necessarily a great role for Malkin on PP2.

Without going too deep into circles of things, this is what NHL coaches are paid to figure out...and I don't think Sullivan and his coaches have done a good job in this realm.
I agree. I sometimes watch old Penguins games on YouTube and the power play back in the 90s had all of these ingredients and was usually clicking at like 25-30-plus percent and I think a big reason why is because the players knew their roles. Lemieux was the puck distributor, Coffey the breakout.entry guy and point shot guy, Stevens/Tocchet the net front guy, Jagr/Francis the other threat on the right side. Plus Murphy almost never tried to do too much - keep the puck in, move it down low or over to Coffey or just get it on net. Simple. Stevens was the trigger guy, always net front and shooting or deflecting.

Granted, it is not entirely fair to compare the current PP with the ones Mario, Jagr, and Francis played on there and that was a different era but this team has plenty of elite talent and interference is called much tighter now. They need to understand their roles and not think too much. They also need a net-front guy because they don't have one unless Harkins or DOC suddenly catch fire which I don't expect to happen.
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