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POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

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If you traded Sprong for a winger, you would want:

Poll ended at Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:16 pm

Jeff Skinner
2
10%
Nino Niederreiter
2
10%
Jason Zucker
2
10%
Max Pacioretty
3
15%
Wayne Simmonds
2
10%
None, keep Sprong/Sheary instead.
7
35%
Someone not listed.
2
10%
 
Total votes : 20

Re: POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

Postby LimerickPensFan on Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:19 pm

Daniel wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:Most of those picks would have been lucky to play on the Nailers.


Not sure who the Pens would have taken, but of the actual draft picks, 2 have made the NHL, 3 were in the AHL last year, 1 in NCAA, and 1 in Europe (see below). 5 out of the 7 went further than your opinion.

Fact is, RS traded a bunch of future help for what turned out to be no immediate help at all. I would wager that the seasons would have turned out exactly the same, or even better, if RS hadn't made those trades and used random WBS players instead.

Notice that when the Penguins started to integrate some youth into the NHL team good things started to happen? Now don't get me wrong, I am not against traded draft picks or prospects. I am against wasting picks for Marcel Goc, Douglas Murray, Lee Stempniak, etc and having such a disconnect with a coach that Jarome Iginla looks like an average player.

I have no problems with the Kessel trade, the Brassard trade, and after further reflection, the Reaves trade as well. Sure the Pens gave up draft picks, but they actually improved the team. RS didn't improve the team, killed the prospect pool, and didn't develop anyone. JR has improved the team, added several UDFA to the prospect pool, and I think he'll get the depth that he wants.

1st - Morgan Klimchuk - AHL/Calgary
2nd - Tyler Bertuzzi - NHL
5th - Matej Paulovic (to Dallas) - Europe (that was the Jokinen pick, I have no problem if you want to remove Jokinen as a waste, I was just adding the last few years of RS and added him by mistake)

2nd - Noah Rod - AHL
3rd - Matt Iacopelli - AHL
5th - Miguel Fidler - NCAA
3rd - Samuel Montembeault - AHL

I'm not fond of what Shero did to our farm team, but I understand it some. When you have a team like we have, you take some chances to try to get it over the top. With Sid and Geno on the team, we always have that chance. You complained about the Jussi Jokinen trade, but I actually think that worked out well for the trade. I think Jokinen was a good player for us. The only one that cost us even a first round pick was Iginla, and while that didn't work out, I still think it was a nice attempt. Yeah, you can pick out individuals that worked out well or okay, but the NHL draft is nothing like the NFL draft. You're drafting a number of players in the hopes that one or two will work out. The problem with hockey players is that it's a crap shoot. I just saw one of our second-round players compared to Patrik Hornqvist. Well, Hornqvist was the last player drafted. That's the thing. You just don't know. The #1 pick could end up being a nothing. That's why draft picks are so easy to trade.

Were I building a team, I'd want draft picks.
Were I trying to get the team over the edge to win it all, I want proven players. Sure, sometimes they don't work out as well on your team, and you can always find examples of failure, but the odds are more in your favor that way.
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Re: POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

Postby Daniel on Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:31 pm

Cow_Master66 wrote:
Daniel wrote:
Cow_Master66 wrote:What do you mean by “throwing picks away”? Are you upset that we don’t have a first rounder this year because we traded it to improve our chances at a 3rd straight cup? This team has to be in a win now mode. Not directed at anyone in particular but can we please stop acting like draft picks in the late first/second are some sort of guarantee? The odds of any of the recent picks we traded being full rime NHLers is really low. Out of all of the the Kapanen deal is probably the one that will eventually sting but guess what, we won 2 cups so it won’t sting too bad....


I won't speak for State College, but I would say RS threw away picks:

From 2013 to 2014 the Pens gave up

2013 2nd and 2014 2nd for Doug Murray
2013 1st for Jarome Iginla (plus two prospects)
2013 conditional pick (6th or 7th) for Jussi Jokinen
2014 3rd for Lee Stempniak
2014 5th and 2015 3rd for Marcel Goc

Who knows what those picks would have been, but how much better would the farm system be with 7 extra prospects all about 21-23?

RS threw away a lot of picks for players that didn't even contribute as much as Sheary....who was gotten for free.


Nothing in that list inspires any regret for me, and I highly doubt RS would take any of them back (maybe the Murray one?).... When you have a chance to go all the way you take it. Giving up picks outside of the top 15 is not as big of a deal as is being implied here. Picks round 4+ are almost worthless in the grand scheme of things. Yes there are some players to be found but has anyone ever heard a GM say he really “regretted trading that 6th rounder”....


The picks weren't the issue, the return was.
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Re: POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

Postby Daniel on Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:57 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:I'm not fond of what Shero did to our farm team, but I understand it some. When you have a team like we have, you take some chances to try to get it over the top. With Sid and Geno on the team, we always have that chance. You complained about the Jussi Jokinen trade, but I actually think that worked out well for the trade. I think Jokinen was a good player for us. The only one that cost us even a first round pick was Iginla, and while that didn't work out, I still think it was a nice attempt. Yeah, you can pick out individuals that worked out well or okay, but the NHL draft is nothing like the NFL draft. You're drafting a number of players in the hopes that one or two will work out. The problem with hockey players is that it's a crap shoot. I just saw one of our second-round players compared to Patrik Hornqvist. Well, Hornqvist was the last player drafted. That's the thing. You just don't know. The #1 pick could end up being a nothing. That's why draft picks are so easy to trade.

Were I building a team, I'd want draft picks.
Were I trying to get the team over the edge to win it all, I want proven players. Sure, sometimes they don't work out as well on your team, and you can always find examples of failure, but the odds are more in your favor that way.


I shouldn't have put Jokinen on the list, that trade was a good one. Look at the list of players that came back in those other trades, they were terrible (Iginla was only terrible on the Pens and there was no reason to get him).

I understand what he was trying to do also, but any of those players in those trades could have been replaced by a number of WBS or waiver wire pickups. Iginla was a waste of a trade because of the disconnect between GM and HC. He's a great player, but the team needed better role players, not more scorers. They actually needed a guy like Hornqvist to be honest with you.

Those trades I mentioned created a terrible farm system, gained the Penguins Doug Murray for 29 games, Marcel Goc for 64 games, Lee Stempniak for 34 games, and Jarome Iginla for 28 games, and 2 rounds of the playoffs each year.

I think they could have kept the picks and had the same success in the playoffs. Yes, you gamble when you're a team like the Pens. No, you don't gamble when the return is Doug Murray, Marcel Goc, Lee Stempniak, and a misused Jarome Iginla.

Look at what JR has done. He's actually given up more draft picks than RS, but the return was far greater, had far greater impact, and weren't worthless players (for the most part). I think Winnick was the only worthless trade. Streit offered depth and that was the intent, so I wouldn't consider it a worthless trade. The Corrado trade isn't worthless since it gave them cap space.

David Perron (who got Carl Hagelin)
Daniel Winnick
Ian Cole
Phil Kessel
Nick Bonino
Justin Schultz
Frank Corrado (who cares, dumped Fehr's salary)
Mark Streit
Jamie Oleksiak
Derick Brassard

Left out the trades where the Pens 1 for 1 draft picks in the return.

The bottom line is that I think RS made trades for the sake of making trades and didn't really worry about the chemistry or improvement of the team. The fact that Bylsma didn't trust younger players certainly didn't help.

I think when JR makes a trade, he looks at how the player will fit both on and off the ice how he will fit Sullivan's system, how he will work with XYZ linemates. Brassard looks like a bust, but he'll be fine next year.

JR also tries to work in younger players as well, which is what RS should have been doing, even if Bylsma had to accept it kicking and screaming.
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Re: POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

Postby blurryhaze312 on Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:48 am

The only one to blame for Iginla was Bylsma.

That entire season from the first puck drop after lockout was set up to be Pittsburgh vs Chicago. What a glorious final that would have been...

Maybe there was no true need to grab Iginla, but when you had Boston hot on his tail also and the fact that you had the chance to go all the way against likely a really great Chicago team I think they made the right choice. That could have been a Cup-defining trade. Except they just got punched in the mouth by Boston.
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Re: POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

Postby Cow_Master66 on Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:14 pm

Daniel wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:I'm not fond of what Shero did to our farm team, but I understand it some. When you have a team like we have, you take some chances to try to get it over the top. With Sid and Geno on the team, we always have that chance. You complained about the Jussi Jokinen trade, but I actually think that worked out well for the trade. I think Jokinen was a good player for us. The only one that cost us even a first round pick was Iginla, and while that didn't work out, I still think it was a nice attempt. Yeah, you can pick out individuals that worked out well or okay, but the NHL draft is nothing like the NFL draft. You're drafting a number of players in the hopes that one or two will work out. The problem with hockey players is that it's a crap shoot. I just saw one of our second-round players compared to Patrik Hornqvist. Well, Hornqvist was the last player drafted. That's the thing. You just don't know. The #1 pick could end up being a nothing. That's why draft picks are so easy to trade.

Were I building a team, I'd want draft picks.
Were I trying to get the team over the edge to win it all, I want proven players. Sure, sometimes they don't work out as well on your team, and you can always find examples of failure, but the odds are more in your favor that way.


I shouldn't have put Jokinen on the list, that trade was a good one. Look at the list of players that came back in those other trades, they were terrible (Iginla was only terrible on the Pens and there was no reason to get him).

I understand what he was trying to do also, but any of those players in those trades could have been replaced by a number of WBS or waiver wire pickups. Iginla was a waste of a trade because of the disconnect between GM and HC. He's a great player, but the team needed better role players, not more scorers. They actually needed a guy like Hornqvist to be honest with you.

Those trades I mentioned created a terrible farm system, gained the Penguins Doug Murray for 29 games, Marcel Goc for 64 games, Lee Stempniak for 34 games, and Jarome Iginla for 28 games, and 2 rounds of the playoffs each year.

I think they could have kept the picks and had the same success in the playoffs. Yes, you gamble when you're a team like the Pens. No, you don't gamble when the return is Doug Murray, Marcel Goc, Lee Stempniak, and a misused Jarome Iginla.

Look at what JR has done. He's actually given up more draft picks than RS, but the return was far greater, had far greater impact, and weren't worthless players (for the most part). I think Winnick was the only worthless trade. Streit offered depth and that was the intent, so I wouldn't consider it a worthless trade. The Corrado trade isn't worthless since it gave them cap space.

David Perron (who got Carl Hagelin)
Daniel Winnick
Ian Cole
Phil Kessel
Nick Bonino
Justin Schultz
Frank Corrado (who cares, dumped Fehr's salary)
Mark Streit
Jamie Oleksiak
Derick Brassard

Left out the trades where the Pens 1 for 1 draft picks in the return.

The bottom line is that I think RS made trades for the sake of making trades and didn't really worry about the chemistry or improvement of the team. The fact that Bylsma didn't trust younger players certainly didn't help.

I think when JR makes a trade, he looks at how the player will fit both on and off the ice how he will fit Sullivan's system, how he will work with XYZ linemates. Brassard looks like a bust, but he'll be fine next year.

JR also tries to work in younger players as well, which is what RS should have been doing, even if Bylsma had to accept it kicking and screaming.


Most of those guys were brought in for a specific need. Goc for FOs, Winnick for the PK, Murray for net front D, Step for depth, etc...Again, when you think you are a piece or 2 away you make the deal. Again, the reward far outweighs the risk of what they gave up.
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Re: POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

Postby Great58 on Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:28 pm

Have the Penguins really mishandled Sprong that badly? I agree he shouldn't have been tried for 18 games as an 19 yo, but that misstep is really only costing the Penguins $58,000 this season (and I guess makes him not waiver exempt). It could burn him in two years if he lights the league on fire, but that would be a good problem to have. He's now 21 years old, with a year of AHL experience, coming to camp with expectations to make the NHL team. He's had a shoulder injury that he recovered from, has some defensive lapses that need ongoing attention, some anxiety/personality issues that have been alluded to. For a second round pick with some baggage, isn't he right where he should be in his development? So.... he's not (even eligible as) a Calder candidate, but statistically he's at or above expected in achieving 100 games in the NHL given his draft ranking. Or am I missing something that SHOULD have happened by now, given all of that and the Penguins roster as it has been? Should he have bypassed Simon who is three years older with two more years AHL experience for some reason?
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Re: POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

Postby Jim on Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:38 pm

Great58 wrote:Have the Penguins really mishandled Sprong that badly?


No. Not at all.

If someone doesn't develop but they were brought into the NHL people cry that they were mishandled and young players need time in the minors to grow.
If someone doesn't develop but they were left into the AHL people cry that they were mishandled and young players need to be brought into the big league and not left in the minors to flounder.

Sometimes a player just isn't as good as some media guy makes him out to be when he was 18.
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Re: POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

Postby Puck-Lurker on Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:47 pm

Jim wrote:
Great58 wrote:Have the Penguins really mishandled Sprong that badly?


No. Not at all.

If someone doesn't develop but they were brought into the NHL people cry that they were mishandled and young players need time in the minors to grow.
If someone doesn't develop but they were left into the AHL people cry that they were mishandled and young players need to be brought into the big league and not left in the minors to flounder.

Sometimes a player just isn't as good as some media guy makes him out to be when he was 18.

I think the jury's still out on that. They kept him in the press box a bit long in his rookie season I thought. Last season, they decided to play other people at RW slots. Not always the most logical choices after Reaves was traded.

But that's small fries.

Coaches aren't giving him a lot of room, that's for sure. It's hard to say that's mostly because they are biased against his type of play and personality, or objective gaps in his abilities justify this.

Think their use of Sprong this year defines whether they handled him well, or badly.
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Re: POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

Postby Daniel on Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:21 pm

Puck-Lurker wrote:
Jim wrote:
Great58 wrote:Have the Penguins really mishandled Sprong that badly?


No. Not at all.

If someone doesn't develop but they were brought into the NHL people cry that they were mishandled and young players need time in the minors to grow.
If someone doesn't develop but they were left into the AHL people cry that they were mishandled and young players need to be brought into the big league and not left in the minors to flounder.

Sometimes a player just isn't as good as some media guy makes him out to be when he was 18.

I think the jury's still out on that. They kept him in the press box a bit long in his rookie season I thought. Last season, they decided to play other people at RW slots. Not always the most logical choices after Reaves was traded.

But that's small fries.

Coaches aren't giving him a lot of room, that's for sure. It's hard to say that's mostly because they are biased against his type of play and personality, or objective gaps in his abilities justify this.

Think their use of Sprong this year defines whether they handled him well, or badly.


I think they completely mishandled Sprong's entry level contract and development, one year just is enough. Hopefully his one season at WBS was enough, but it would have been nice if he had at least one more year at WBS and gotten to the Pens when he was completely ready. Since they blew his waiver eligibility, he'll have to learn on the fly at the NHL level.

If Sprong succeeds this year it is a strong endorsement of Clark Donatelli and the rest of the WBS coaching staff.
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Re: POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

Postby Puck-Lurker on Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:01 pm

Daniel wrote:
Puck-Lurker wrote:
Jim wrote:
Great58 wrote:Have the Penguins really mishandled Sprong that badly?


No. Not at all.

If someone doesn't develop but they were brought into the NHL people cry that they were mishandled and young players need time in the minors to grow.
If someone doesn't develop but they were left into the AHL people cry that they were mishandled and young players need to be brought into the big league and not left in the minors to flounder.

Sometimes a player just isn't as good as some media guy makes him out to be when he was 18.

I think the jury's still out on that. They kept him in the press box a bit long in his rookie season I thought. Last season, they decided to play other people at RW slots. Not always the most logical choices after Reaves was traded.

But that's small fries.

Coaches aren't giving him a lot of room, that's for sure. It's hard to say that's mostly because they are biased against his type of play and personality, or objective gaps in his abilities justify this.

Think their use of Sprong this year defines whether they handled him well, or badly.


I think they completely mishandled Sprong's entry level contract and development, one year just is enough. Hopefully his one season at WBS was enough, but it would have been nice if he had at least one more year at WBS and gotten to the Pens when he was completely ready. Since they blew his waiver eligibility, he'll have to learn on the fly at the NHL level.

If Sprong succeeds this year it is a strong endorsement of Clark Donatelli and the rest of the WBS coaching staff.

For all my Sprong-love (Hey, I'm Dutch, I'm well-entitled, he's the first Dutch NHL player in forever), I do think he needs to make the most of this year, earn and keep a place on the roster. Convince the staff.

Staff needs to give him room to succeed in. We've seen what Simon can and can't do last year (got 33+8G, 12+3 pts). Give him 40 games.
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Re: POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

Postby FLPensFan on Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:49 pm

Daniel wrote:
Puck-Lurker wrote:
Jim wrote:
Great58 wrote:Have the Penguins really mishandled Sprong that badly?


No. Not at all.

If someone doesn't develop but they were brought into the NHL people cry that they were mishandled and young players need time in the minors to grow.
If someone doesn't develop but they were left into the AHL people cry that they were mishandled and young players need to be brought into the big league and not left in the minors to flounder.

Sometimes a player just isn't as good as some media guy makes him out to be when he was 18.

I think the jury's still out on that. They kept him in the press box a bit long in his rookie season I thought. Last season, they decided to play other people at RW slots. Not always the most logical choices after Reaves was traded.

But that's small fries.

Coaches aren't giving him a lot of room, that's for sure. It's hard to say that's mostly because they are biased against his type of play and personality, or objective gaps in his abilities justify this.

Think their use of Sprong this year defines whether they handled him well, or badly.


I think they completely mishandled Sprong's entry level contract and development, one year just is enough. Hopefully his one season at WBS was enough, but it would have been nice if he had at least one more year at WBS and gotten to the Pens when he was completely ready. Since they blew his waiver eligibility, he'll have to learn on the fly at the NHL level.

If Sprong succeeds this year it is a strong endorsement of Clark Donatelli and the rest of the WBS coaching staff.

He got to WBS as soon as he could have. He could not have come and played in WBS any sooner than he did because of the CHL transfer rules, and not being allowed to play in AHL until you are 20. So, one more year in AHL would be this season. His ELC has nothing to do with his ability to play another year in WBS.

Now, if you want to argue they never should have given him any NHL time under Johnston, that I can agree with, especially when all he got was 4th line time.
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Re: POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

Postby longtimefan on Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:17 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
Puck-Lurker wrote:
Jim wrote:
Great58 wrote:Have the Penguins really mishandled Sprong that badly?


No. Not at all.

If someone doesn't develop but they were brought into the NHL people cry that they were mishandled and young players need time in the minors to grow.
If someone doesn't develop but they were left into the AHL people cry that they were mishandled and young players need to be brought into the big league and not left in the minors to flounder.

Sometimes a player just isn't as good as some media guy makes him out to be when he was 18.

I think the jury's still out on that. They kept him in the press box a bit long in his rookie season I thought. Last season, they decided to play other people at RW slots. Not always the most logical choices after Reaves was traded.

But that's small fries.

Coaches aren't giving him a lot of room, that's for sure. It's hard to say that's mostly because they are biased against his type of play and personality, or objective gaps in his abilities justify this.

Think their use of Sprong this year defines whether they handled him well, or badly.


I think they completely mishandled Sprong's entry level contract and development, one year just is enough. Hopefully his one season at WBS was enough, but it would have been nice if he had at least one more year at WBS and gotten to the Pens when he was completely ready. Since they blew his waiver eligibility, he'll have to learn on the fly at the NHL level.

If Sprong succeeds this year it is a strong endorsement of Clark Donatelli and the rest of the WBS coaching staff.

He got to WBS as soon as he could have. He could not have come and played in WBS any sooner than he did because of the CHL transfer rules, and not being allowed to play in AHL until you are 20. So, one more year in AHL would be this season. His ELC has nothing to do with his ability to play another year in WBS.

Now, if you want to argue they never should have given him any NHL time under Johnston, that I can agree with, especially when all he got was 4th line time.


I think Daniel's saying the same thing, just in a different way. I think most of us agree that the mistake was starting the clock on his ELC. He's not behind the curve at all, but expectations were heightened with him playing in 2015. Plus that he's a dynamic offensive talent. The defensive issues aren't new, as it's why he was available with the 46th pick. He just turned 21 in March, and is coming off a nice rookie year in the AHL. There should be anticipation that he's ready to possibly contribute, but they wouldn't have to force it. They would have the luxury of sending him down if he struggled. Now they don't. There's only a couple players drafted before him in the 2nd round that year who are playing regularly in the NHL. Anyway, it's a mute point. If he's ready.
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Re: POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

Postby Daniel on Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:59 pm

longtimefan wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:He got to WBS as soon as he could have. He could not have come and played in WBS any sooner than he did because of the CHL transfer rules, and not being allowed to play in AHL until you are 20. So, one more year in AHL would be this season. His ELC has nothing to do with his ability to play another year in WBS.

Now, if you want to argue they never should have given him any NHL time under Johnston, that I can agree with, especially when all he got was 4th line time.


I think Daniel's saying the same thing, just in a different way. I think most of us agree that the mistake was starting the clock on his ELC. He's not behind the curve at all, but expectations were heightened with him playing in 2015. Plus that he's a dynamic offensive talent. The defensive issues aren't new, as it's why he was available with the 46th pick. He just turned 21 in March, and is coming off a nice rookie year in the AHL. There should be anticipation that he's ready to possibly contribute, but they wouldn't have to force it. They would have the luxury of sending him down if he struggled. Now they don't. There's only a couple players drafted before him in the 2nd round that year who are playing regularly in the NHL. Anyway, it's a mute point. If he's ready.


That's absolutely what I'm saying. He might not need to be in WBS this season, but it would be nice to have him do like Guentzel and Rust did. Each of them came up for a bit, went back to WBS for a month or so and forced there way back. Not saying Sprong needs that, but it would have been a nice option. Rust and Guentzel were also older and far more developed than Sprong. I think he can have an NHL career much like Kessel's, but being a complete player seems to be the teams goal.

To FlPensFan, his ELC has absolutely everything to do with his ability to play, since they blew his waiver eligibility.
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Re: POLL: Trading Sprong for a winger.

Postby FLPensFan on Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:16 pm

Daniel wrote:
longtimefan wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:He got to WBS as soon as he could have. He could not have come and played in WBS any sooner than he did because of the CHL transfer rules, and not being allowed to play in AHL until you are 20. So, one more year in AHL would be this season. His ELC has nothing to do with his ability to play another year in WBS.

Now, if you want to argue they never should have given him any NHL time under Johnston, that I can agree with, especially when all he got was 4th line time.


I think Daniel's saying the same thing, just in a different way. I think most of us agree that the mistake was starting the clock on his ELC. He's not behind the curve at all, but expectations were heightened with him playing in 2015. Plus that he's a dynamic offensive talent. The defensive issues aren't new, as it's why he was available with the 46th pick. He just turned 21 in March, and is coming off a nice rookie year in the AHL. There should be anticipation that he's ready to possibly contribute, but they wouldn't have to force it. They would have the luxury of sending him down if he struggled. Now they don't. There's only a couple players drafted before him in the 2nd round that year who are playing regularly in the NHL. Anyway, it's a mute point. If he's ready.


That's absolutely what I'm saying. He might not need to be in WBS this season, but it would be nice to have him do like Guentzel and Rust did. Each of them came up for a bit, went back to WBS for a month or so and forced there way back. Not saying Sprong needs that, but it would have been a nice option. Rust and Guentzel were also older and far more developed than Sprong. I think he can have an NHL career much like Kessel's, but being a complete player seems to be the teams goal.

To FlPensFan, his ELC has absolutely everything to do with his ability to play, since they blew his waiver eligibility.

Yeah, that's a good point. Wasn't thinking of that.
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Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:30 pm
Location: South Florida

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